Why is everybody having trouble with microsoft networking?

[spidey07]

Just curious, and thought you guys could post some sort of reason for all the "can't see my computer" problems.

Here's my background: Install 100s of networks from the very small to the very large, sometimes unix, sometimes novell, sometimes Microsoft. I have yet to actually see the problems people describe.

Here's my simple way for microsoft peer-to-peer networking:
install TCP/IP - make absolutely sure your cables are good and the IP address and mask info is correct.
Install file and print sharing (this starts server service thereby announcing your machine to netbios)
ensure workgoup names are exactly the same
make sure there are no duplicate IP addresses
make sure the computer names are unique and contain 14 characters or less of alphanumeric only (NO SPACES!!!, yeah I know it is supported, just don't do it)
turn both computers off.
turn the highest OS revision on first and let it stay on for 10 minutes. highest os being 2000 AS, 2000 server, 2000 workstation, NT4 server, NT4 workstation, win me, win98, win95, so on.

turn on the other machines, log in and browse away. If you really are having problems with netbios over IP then install netbeui, can take care of your master browser issues. don't lecture me about netbios it is a home network we're talking about here.
quit rebooting the machines!!!! leave that highest OS revision on all the time.

hope this helps...please contribute
spidey

 

[Hard_Boiled]

That's a good way to lay down the steps. You being a networking guru this may seem easy, but for some networking is a whole new world.

What also may be helpful for people are the basic troubleshooting steps, helping them isolate the problem if after those steps it doesn't work. Pinging 127.0.0.1, pinging the other machine, making sure tcp/ip is working. And wait you said about waiting is good, sometimes it takes a bit for everything to find itself, and for the other computers to show up in network neighborhood.

 

[spidey07]

i figured we could come up with a bullet-proof guide on doing a microsoft peer-to-peer network with our collective conscienousness.

Anybody have some good links?
practicallynetworded.com

BASIC IP TROUBLSHOOTING
go do dos window and type ping localhost
ping your IP address
----at this point you know IP stack is loaded and bound on your computer
ping IP address of another powered up LAN workstation
---if this works then your network is good to layer3, you most likely have name resolution and browsing problems...check naming, accounts, workgroup names, etc.

spidey

 

[Russ]

<< Why is everybody having trouble with microsoft networking? >>



Because it was designed in the last century.

Russ, NCNE

 

[ScottMac]

For my two cents worth, maybe remind people that it's not necessarily an &quot;instant on&quot; thing. Sometimes it takes a couple minutes for the network to converge...for all the machines to see each other. Some are gonna be up before others, especially if there are some new nodes.

Some of the problems (IMHO) are folks just not waiting for the discovery processes to finish.

FWIW

Scott

 

[Bleep]

It is really funny about how long it takes for the machines to see each other. I have 4 on a home lan with one of them being my ICS gateway the other day the network went down and could ping all machines from each other but none was available to the other except ICS I fooled with it for a few hours and gave up. the next day (I leave my machines on all the time) they suddenly found each other. Tell me what happend, please tell me that it is not Microsoft causing my problem.
Bleep

 

[Eug]

Part of it is probably because I'm an idiot, but I'm also convinced that there are some bugs in the system. Hey, give us a break.

With the help from this forum I could not get my laptop to network properly to my desktop using TCP/IP alone. Finally, I reinstalled the OS (Win 2000) on the desktop and now everything works fine. The funny thing is every setting I could think of was exactly the same the second time around.

Anyways, since many of us don't do this for a living, it ain't as easy for us even if there aren't any bugs.

P.S. I just got my wireless LAN up and running. I like it.

 

[JackMDS]

Network setting is one of the most cumbersome computer settings; it involves so many steps that without graphical instructions many people can not visualizing what should they do.

For obvious reasons, forums like this can not provide the Bandwidth for Graphical Illustrations.

An Example of step by step Visual Instructions can be found here:

http://firingsquad.gamers.com/guides/windowsnet/


Hey Russ, all of us were designed in the last century.

 

[Xanathar]

Dont forget if you are only using TCP/IP to leave the Netbios binded.....
Or Unbind it for security, and then install NetBEUI as an additional protocol for your lan.

 

[CigarSmokedByClinton]

OK gurus

since its so easy, tell me what to do

Comp1: win2k w/ TCPIP and Net BEUI
Comp2: win98 w/ same

both have file and printer sharing enabled
both have directories shared
both have bee up and running for more than 20 min


I can ping comp2 from comp1
I can stream mp3s on comp2 from comp1's HD
I can't ping comp1 from comp2

I fI click on Network neighborhood on comp2, it'll freeze that window only for about 8 minutes, after which it will find all comp1's shared folders with the exception of my shared printer.

These two comps are connected via my new Netgear RT314

Any ideas gurus?

Cigar

 

[spidey07]

Alright...first off this post was not meant to offend anyone, it was simply to get some ideas flowing on troubleshooting MS networking.

To bleep, YES this kind of behavior is what is called microsoft networking. Why anybody would use microsoft as a network operating system is beyond comprehension unless you really have that much money to waste on people fixing it every hour of the day. KNOWN AND ACCEPTED FACT.

Ever since I've played with MS networking (back in da days with LAN manager and windows for workgroups) you've had the same basic problems. As advanced as you may think windows is, it really is very archaic. Even NT4 uses netbios as the means to find resources. But wait!, I'm using TCP/IP as my protocol. Well, that is still netbios wrapped in a IP header. Same broadcasting to register and find resources. Absolut suck.

So, you can ping by IP address? That's good.

Can't &quot;browse&quot; the network via network neighborhood? Not so bad, this is what I meant by name resolution problems. There is in fact some MS technote that describes this very behavior as normal where by a master browser can take up to 30 minutes to be elected. A master browser is a computer that is in charge of keeping a browse list (a list of all netbios resources on a network subnet) for the entire network segment. The first thing a MS computer does after getting an IP address is broadcast for the master browser (no domains here), if nobody answers then it declares itself the MB...problem is the timeout for this election is so low that a computer could falsely elect itself the MB and start the election process with the real MB.

Bottom line is MS networking is fubarred. WINS generally takes care of this sort of thing because it is a computer that is always on and can adequately maintain a database of all subnet master browsers and domain master browsers but you don't expect a home network to do this kinda crap.

So, you can ping? Now check netbios name resolution by going to a dos prompt and typing (ohh, by the way you must have client for microsoft networks loaded under network control panel otherwise you aint gonna browse sh!t) <net view \\computername> where computer name is the netbios name/computer name of your other computer. If you get the response unknown computer name then you have a browsing problem and need to reinstall what ever service pack you're on, reboot the highest ranking OS...leave it on for 10-45 minutes and boot the client PC (yes this is normal). the command &quot;nbtstat&quot; can tell you if you name resolution requests actually got answered.

If all else fails MAKE SURE YOU HAVE CORRECT IP ADDRESSES AND MASKS AND GATEWAYS ON ALL MACHINES. Especially if your masks are different because these are used to broadcast your name resolution requests and registrations.

again, trying to get to the root cause of all these requests. Networks are not supposed to be this much trouble and I was hoping to get some more tips.

spidey

ps - cigarsmokedbyclinton
I can ping comp2 from comp1 ---------------------cool
I can stream mp3s on comp2 from comp1's HD---------using what kind of transport? shared MS drives or straight TCP
I can't ping comp1 from comp2-------------------that's just microsoft for ya, try reinstalling whatever service packs you have applied. By saying you can ping comp2 from comp1 you have bidirectional communication and really have somekind of OS issue.

 

[Bleep]

Interesting!
When I look at the first post in this thread and just looked again it sounds like anyone with 1/2 brain can get Microsoft Networking working with just a few little quirks being addressed but the thread just above this one says that MS networking is fubar and it takes a &quot;real&quot; tek to keep it going. I just want to say I have never had a problem with my network after i figured it out with some great help from here, until last week, I only use TCPIP with a firewall on the gateway machine, the ICS has never failed me even when I could not address the other machines from Network neighborhood. I am soon going to Apache server depending on what OS I have to use.
Bleep

 

[TBP]

Because

1)when the OS was designed, user-friendliness was not in the requirements document (well, I guess);

2)we sometimes don't want to spend extra money so we have to find some shortcut, work-around, etc., which by definition, cause troubles;

3)we think we are capable (although in reality this is questionable) of wiring our home network.

4)we have this forum to turn to after we mess up with everything.

 

[igiveup]

I don't know it all and will state it up front. Most of the problems people mention here on the forums are some kind of windows 2000 variation with windows 98 computers also. A few things to remember:

1) Binding order on windows 2000 boxes.
2) Default protocol set to use the same protocol if you do use more than one protocol (check all your machines).
3) Lets not forget that to access the 2k box we need accounts for those other computers on the network (you COULD leave the guest account enabled, but thats not a great idea to get used to).
4) One last edited thing: if you can't network, make sure you have &quot;LINK&quot; lights lit up on your cards. Can't tell you how dumb it makes you feel after you call ISP tech support and then you find out it was an unplugged or loose cable (the metal brackets between the PCI slots kept the retention pin from clicking in).

Stuff happens, don't waste the Tylenol if you don't have too.

SPIDEY07: Nice list.

 

[spidey07]

thanks for the tips igiveup,

bleep,
what turned out to be the fix for your initial problems?

 

[mobly99]

Spidey07 - half of the problems I see lately from MS Networking are not related to MS Networking but rather to people running a firewall on their system and not configuring the firewall to allow access from the hosts/ports that are trying to access it.

 

[spidey07]

great!

another thing to look for.

 

[Garion]

Spidey,

Good post, but I'd add one more thing to it... MS Networking is very finicky about how it resolves the names of other computer. It's always going to look at DNS first and if you don't have a DNS server setup odd things might happen.

If you've got an NT server on the network, WINS makes a lot of things work better. Without WINS you're relying on DNS and/or learned names via IP broadcast. If you use a WINS server, everything registers on boot and everyone can always find each other. In short, if you've got a NT4 server, install WINS on it and point all the clients to it.

With Windows 2000, this is all controlled by active directory, but that's much more complex to setup - Internal DNS and forwarding can be a bit tricky for novices.

Also, for a small network, I often recommend users put on NetBeui - Far easier to configure, no name resolution issues and you don't have to worry about Internet security. Just remember to set NetBeui as the default protocol in it's advanced config tab.

- G

 

[CTR]

Here's my tip:

When all else fails, sniff it! MS networks are nice and chatty, so you have plenty of information to go through on your packet capture. The free sniffer I've been using lately on my win2k box is Ethereal. I bet CigarSmokedByClinton's problem with the weird browsing could yield some interesting packet dumps.

 

[JackMDS]

Spidey while your descriptions of MS software behavior are a reality, the average Network user, who looses is second computer in the ?Neighborhood Limbo? is not stretching the system like you do (he just don't like to read).

I agree with the NetBEUI notion, however XP is around the corner, and guess what, no NetBEUI; XP actually erases preinstalled NetBEUI (at least in the beta version).

A whole new ballgame is going to start in few months.

 

[spidey07]

One big troubleshooting tip I need to highlight.

If you change ANY network settings at all no matter how miniscule...you MUST reinstall your latest service pack. I've seen all kinds of fubarred sniffer traces where MS just is not doing what it is supposed to do (like quering the wrong wins or DNS server or plain wrong netbios name on broadcast). I've also seen NT workstations up and login to a BDC in hong kong when the machine knows damn well there is an NT server BDC on the local subnet sittin next to it. go figure. That one took the server guys two weeks worth of troubleshooting to finally call the comm guys. Another problem solved in 10 minutes by a sniffer.

 

[CigarSmokedByClinton]

I think I figured out the problem. Actually there were two problems. I had NetBEUI installed, and that really slowed it down. Now I am only using TCP/IP. Also, the NIC I was using was from 1993 so I bought a new one, and it works much better. I don't think that there is never a need to use NetBEUI when TCP/IP is already installed

Thanks for the help guys. These are the threads that I come here for. None of that Off Topic Soap opera religious debates in which no one ever convinces anyone and everyone offends everyone./end rant

Cigar

 

[Garion]

On the service pack issues.. I've seen that about 50% of the time that techs don't install them right. Most people just throw the CD in (or run it from disk) with no prep. Tip - If you don't shut down a service the files are in use and don't get updated. Before installing a service pack, go into the service control panel and shut down ALL the services (except the 3 that you can't stop), THEN install it.

- G

 

[EmperorRob]

I'd like to add a little question to all the networking gods here.

if I have 2 machines, Win2k &amp; Win98, hooked together via crossover TCP/IP cable which will become the master browser?

It's my assumption that Win2k machine will. But what I need to do is reboot the Win2k machine to Ghost and save a hard drive image to the Win98 machine. I never could get that to work.

 

[spidey07]

win2k will win the masterbrowser election which could take upto 30 minutes.

I suspect you'll need to leave the win2k box off for 30 minutes before the 98 machine realizes it is gone and ghost should work.