Why is DisplayPort so rare on PC laptops?

[paperwastage]

From what I have seen in these newly released Haslweel ultrabooks, even if they have HDMI, the laptop will limit the resolution (I forget which one did, but it admitted so in the specifications).

the Asus Zenbook U500VZ has a HDMI 1.4a, but only outputs up to 1080p... dunno why the restriction

http://zenbook.asus.com/zenbook/ (click on U500VZ, then Specifications)

it's not haswell though... can't find any limitations for ASUS's haswell UX301LA

 

[The0ne]

It's not about Average Joe home user, it's about Average Joe Business.

Tons of laptops still have a VGA port on the side. Why? Conference room projectors. This is the same thing, you're not seeing conference rooms with the latest projectors and TVs that are using displayport, and IT departments don't have boxes of displayport cables sitting around. HDMI insures maximum compatibility with whatever is in the conference room these days, and if Joe Businessman forgets his HDMI cable, odds are he can stop by IT on his way to the meeting and borrow one. It has nothing to do with what the standards support or 4k monitors or whatever, its all about business.

I think people are thinking solely for their personal choices and fail to realize why they are their. If anything it's about having choices. The VGA port is needed for older equipments at sites. People are unrealistic about others and especially business to keep up with the "trend". Heck, some city councils still have push button voting systems and typewriters!

 

[Infohawk]

I think people are thinking solely for their personal choices and fail to realize why they are their. If anything it's about having choices. The VGA port is needed for older equipments at sites. People are unrealistic about others and especially business to keep up with the "trend". Heck, some city councils still have push button voting systems and typewriters!

Sure, but almost everywhere else tech manufacturers push things forward or at the very least have the latest technology as an option. They want people's equipment to become outdated so people buy new products.

 

[Mushkins]

Sure, but almost everywhere else tech manufacturers push things forward or at the very least have the latest technology as an option. They want people's equipment to become outdated so people buy new products.

And businesses don't want to spend more money until they absolutely have to That 1024x768 VGA projector is totally adequate for powerpoint presentations until its completely and totally unusably busted. Then they don't buy a new one, they just make two departments share. When they finally do buy a new one, it's another 1024x768 VGA projector. The only way a lot of businesses upgrade is when they literally stop selling the legacy products to replace them and they *have to*.

 

[corkyg]

And businesses don't want to spend more money until they absolutely have to That 1024x768 VGA projector is totally adequate for powerpoint presentations until its completely and totally unusably busted. Then they don't buy a new one, they just make two departments share. When they finally do buy a new one, it's another 1024x768 VGA projector. The only way a lot of businesses upgrade is when they literally stop selling the legacy products to replace them and they *have to*.

I can attest to that statement by Mushkins. And why do business laptops have VGA ports? Primarily because of projectors. Those peripherals definitely fall under Mushkins' premise. Many are installed in conference rooms, and as long as they work, they will keep them.

 

[Enigmoid]

I had a laptop with a displayport interface and I remember being UNABLE to use it for presentations because no projectors generally have a adapter with them. Having to carry around an adapter sucks and I had problems using the port too with an adapter.

 

[Mushkins]

I can attest to that statement by Mushkins. And why do business laptops have VGA ports? Primarily because of projectors. Those peripherals definitely fall under Mushkins' premise. Many are installed in conference rooms, and as long as they work, they will keep them.

Drives me nuts too. I set up a big HDTV and a brand new laptop in our conference room because they wanted to do video conferencing between our offices for meetings. Do people coming in for presentations use the HDMI cable sitting on the desk?

Nope, they plug their old laptops into the VGA projector and pull down the ratty old screen, then leave me a rats nest of the cables.

Can't wait until it breaks and I can throw it out the window.

 

[jaydee]

And businesses don't want to spend more money until they absolutely have to That 1024x768 VGA projector is totally adequate for powerpoint presentations until its completely and totally unusably busted. Then they don't buy a new one, they just make two departments share. When they finally do buy a new one, it's another 1024x768 VGA projector. The only way a lot of businesses upgrade is when they literally stop selling the legacy products to replace them and they *have to*.

If businesses drove PC products, we'd still have floppy drives in all our laptops, because "that's how all businesses shared certain information".

PC makers have to drive to the technology to force adaptation (within reason obviously). April, 2014 can't come soon enough for me (end of extended support for WinXP, hopefully my multi-billion dollar company will convert us at that point).

 

[Infohawk]

If businesses drove PC products, we'd still have floppy drives in all our laptops, because "that's how all businesses shared certain information".

Exactly. New technology is shoved down everyone's throats all the time. Why not here?

 

[blackened23]

I don't care what anyone says. I've tried SO MANY ultrabooks with HDMI to work with my 2560x1600 desktop monitor, a 2013 model U3014. It also doesn't work with various 1440p monitors that I've used - including the Samsung S27B970, S27A850, and the Dell u2713. HDMI DOES NOT PROVIDE HIGHER THAN 1080P.

1440p and 1600 DO NOT WORK VIA HDMI. NO MATTER WHAT ANY SPECIFICATION SAYS, IT WILL NOT WORK. 99.9% of HDMI implementations are 1080p only, and that includes EVERY ultrabook. Furthermore, you can try using a desktop GPU with HDMI on a 1600p or 1440p monitor. You will be stuck at 1080p - this is true of the GTX 680, GTX 780, and 7970. HDMI limits the output to 1080p, because 99.9% of HDMI implementations are either old are don't fully implement the specification - therefore limiting it to 1080p.

This is garbage. This is why I won't buy such an ultrabook, period. Sure, you can say that it doesn't matter to some users. It matters to me. It matters to those folks who use non garbage portable computers from Apple. Apple doesn't saddle their macbooks with HDMI, do they? And what sells more? Macbooks or ultrabooks? I'll let you all ponder that. I don't give a flying eff about some guy with a HDTV whining about how the least common denominator doesn't matter to them. Mini DP works with everything, you can find adapters to make it work via HDMI, VGA, and all of that nonsense - but you cannot make HDMI display higher than 1080p. It will not work with anything BUT 1080p.

Until ultrabooks use mini displayport, they will not be getting my money. This is actually why i've bought nothing but macbooks as of late. Using 1080p on my 1600p monitor is NOT ACCEPTABLE. Obviously this has been a source of frustration to me. I cannot use my desktop 30" at 1080p. Screw that.

I'm sorry for the tone but this a MAJOR source of frustration for anyone using a greater than 1080p monitor. Don't give me the nonsense "only a few people own such monitors". This is why Apple wins all of those sales, and ultrabooks don't. Apple doesn't sell lowest common denominator garbage, which is what HDMI currently is - as mentioned it just does not work higher than 1080p. Period. Until HDMI 2.0 is released I don't expect that to change. The other point being, is mDP can work with VGA, DVI, and all of that jazz but you can't make HDMI work with 1440 or 1600p. That's the problem.

So as I said. Until this is fixed. Money is going to Apple , since they're one of the few manufactures who don't release lowest common denominator nonsense.

 

[NutBucket]

almost all business laptops I have had come with displayport.

Basically this. My company standard is an HP Elitebook 8760p

 

[blackened23]

Basically this. My company standard is an HP Elitebook 8760p

Ultrabooks are a smaller form factor and can only include one type of output. That means either mini HDMI or mini DP.

Laptops are a different breed of machine.

 

[NutBucket]

Then you can't have your cake and eat it too

 

[blackened23]

Then you can't have your cake and eat it too

Sure you can. By buying an ultrabook with miniDP, of which there are a few. All macbooks use mini DP as well.

I just won't buy a garbage machine with HDMI. That's the entire issue with the Windows portable ecosystem as of late; manufacturers want to shove low cost and low quality garbage down our throats. Bad keyboards, trackpads that don't track well, HDMI with 1080p only, etc. Consumers are willing to pay for quality - Been there, done that, and I won't put up with the nonsense of using 1080p on a 1440p/1600p monitor. (Obviously this has been a huge PITA for me, as you can tell by my tone )

 

[AkumaX]

I don't care what anyone says. I've tried SO MANY ultrabooks with HDMI to work with my 2560x1600 desktop monitor, a 2013 model U3014. It also doesn't work with various 1440p monitors that I've used - including the Samsung S27B970, S27A850, and the Dell u2713. HDMI DOES NOT PROVIDE HIGHER THAN 1080P.

1440p and 1600 DO NOT WORK VIA HDMI. NO MATTER WHAT ANY SPECIFICATION SAYS, IT WILL NOT WORK. 99.9% of HDMI implementations are 1080p only, and that includes EVERY ultrabook. Furthermore, you can try using a desktop GPU with HDMI on a 1600p or 1440p monitor. You will be stuck at 1080p - this is true of the GTX 680, GTX 780, and 7970. HDMI limits the output to 1080p, because 99.9% of HDMI implementations are either old are don't fully implement the specification - therefore limiting it to 1080p.

This is garbage. This is why I won't buy such an ultrabook, period. Sure, you can say that it doesn't matter to some users. It matters to me. It matters to those folks who use non garbage portable computers from Apple. Apple doesn't saddle their macbooks with HDMI, do they? And what sells more? Macbooks or ultrabooks? I'll let you all ponder that. I don't give a flying eff about some guy with a HDTV whining about how the least common denominator doesn't matter to them. Mini DP works with everything, you can find adapters to make it work via HDMI, VGA, and all of that nonsense - but you cannot make HDMI display higher than 1080p. It will not work with anything BUT 1080p.

Until ultrabooks use mini displayport, they will not be getting my money. This is actually why i've bought nothing but macbooks as of late. Using 1080p on my 1600p monitor is NOT ACCEPTABLE. Obviously this has been a source of frustration to me. I cannot use my desktop 30" at 1080p. Screw that.

I'm sorry for the tone but this a MAJOR source of frustration for anyone using a greater than 1080p monitor. Don't give me the nonsense "only a few people own such monitors". This is why Apple wins all of those sales, and ultrabooks don't. Apple doesn't sell lowest common denominator garbage, which is what HDMI currently is - as mentioned it just does not work higher than 1080p. Period. Until HDMI 2.0 is released I don't expect that to change. The other point being, is mDP can work with VGA, DVI, and all of that jazz but you can't make HDMI work with 1440 or 1600p. That's the problem.

So as I said. Until this is fixed. Money is going to Apple , since they're one of the few manufactures who don't release lowest common denominator nonsense.

Absolutely true from my experience as well. Although, it is correct that HDMI 1.4 is spec'd to do 3840x2160p @ 30hz, and 2560x1600/1440p @ 60hz.

However, it is up to the OEM manufacturer (Asus, Sony, Gigabyte, Acer, etc...) to "use" this spec. AFAIK, no laptop/ultrabook out there does it.

Desktop GFX cards can do it, however (because the manufacturer decided to implement it). This is evident when people started getting those Seiki 4K TV's, and only their GFX cards w/ HDMI 1.4 were able to output 3840x2160p @ 30hz. I would also presume that these cards would also be able to do a lower resolution as well (2560x1600/1440p @ 60hz)

My other caveat is this: what if, the 2560x1600/1440p panels that we got (Dell U3014, Samsung 27", etc..) didn't properly implement HDMI 1.4 as well?
Just because they have HDMI, and the monitors themselves are 2560x1600/1440p, what if they didn't implement the mechanics to allow their receiving HDMI connector to do 2560x1600/1440p?

It goes both ways, I guess...

edit: also re: $$$ going to apple

I have a rMBP 15" at work. How do i use it?

best drawing ever... but show me a Windows laptop that can do that..
o wait, its this one because I'm running bootcamp on it as well

 

[Infohawk]

Sure you can. By buying an ultrabook with miniDP, of which there are a few. All macbooks use mini DP as well.

I just won't buy a garbage machine with HDMI. That's the entire issue with the Windows portable ecosystem as of late; manufacturers want to shove low cost and low quality garbage down our throats. Bad keyboards, trackpads that don't track well, HDMI with 1080p only, etc. Consumers are willing to pay for quality - Been there, done that, and I won't put up with the nonsense of using 1080p on a 1440p/1600p monitor. (Obviously this has been a huge PITA for me, as you can tell by my tone )

I share your frustration.

However, the good news is that it does seem that at least few upcoming PC ultrabooks are going to have DP. I wish I didn't have to wait for so long, but right now Lenovo and Asus have announced ultrabooks that will have DP. That's what I'm waiting for.

I would probably switch to Apple if it weren't for some work-specific PC apps that I do not want to use virtualization for.

 

[blackened23]

Desktop GFX cards can do it, however (because the manufacturer decided to implement it). This is evident when people started getting those Seiki 4K TV's, and only their GFX cards w/ HDMI 1.4 were able to output 3840x2160p @ 30hz. I would also presume that these cards would also be able to do a lower resolution as well (2560x1600/1440p @ 60hz)

This is technically NOT TRUE. It only works via MST which splits the display into 2x 1080p.

Every 4k screen with HDMI is using the MST method currently. OTOH, Displayport can do 4k with a *single cable* because it has enough bandwidth to do so. HDMI can only do 4k through means of MST, which is a surround display standard. What this means is : that HDMI splits the signal into 2X 1080p displays and converts that into a 4k display. This is done with 2X HDMI cables.

There is NO HDMI product, currently, that can display higher than 1080p without surround. 4k with HDMI is technically *not possible* until HDMI 2.0 hits the streets. At best, MST is a weak workaround because it limits you to 30hz refresh and not all displays are capable of doing surround with 2 HDMI cables.

The obvious conclusion is this. Because it is surround, that obviously means 4k isn't possible on it's own via HDMI. Surround is a WEAK workaround, and most things do not support surround MST. HDMI will not TRULY support higher than HDMI until HDMI 2.0, which was just ratified as a standard. Additionally, 1440p and 1600p are both not possible via MST.

Again, I must apologize for the tone. You know what's super annoying? Buying an ultrabook just to find out it won't work with your home display. Having to deal with an RMA. It has been SUPER frustrating for me, I went through so many ultrabooks before deciding to stick with Apple.

 

[AkumaX]

This is technically NOT TRUE. It only works via MST which splits the display into 2x 1080p.

Every 4k screen with HDMI is using the MST method currently. OTOH, Displayport can do 4k with a *single cable* because it has enough bandwidth to do so. HDMI can only do 4k through means of MST, which is a surround display standard. What this means is : that HDMI splits the signal into 2X 1080p displays and converts that into a 4k display. This is done with 2X HDMI cables.

There is NO HDMI product, currently, that can display higher than 1080p without surround. 4k with HDMI is technically *not possible* until HDMI 2.0 hits the streets. At best, MST is a weak workaround because it limits you to 30hz refresh and not all displays are capable of doing surround with 2 HDMI cables.

The obvious conclusion is this. Because it is surround, that obviously means 4k isn't possible on it's own via HDMI. Surround is a WEAK workaround, and most things do not support surround MST. HDMI will not TRULY support higher than HDMI until HDMI 2.0, which was just ratified as a standard. Additionally, 1440p and 1600p are both not possible via MST.

Again, I must apologize for the tone. You know what's super annoying? Buying an ultrabook just to find out it won't work with your home display. Having to deal with an RMA. It has been SUPER frustrating for me, I went through so many ultrabooks before deciding to stick with Apple.

You're telling me all the people that have been buying this Seiki 4K TV and using it with their computers are using 2 x HDMI inputs from their computer into this TV?

http://www.amazon.com/Seiki-Digital-.../dp/B00BXF7I9M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFkdWHfb1kM
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7120/some-quick-gaming-numbers-at-4k-max-settings


edit: remember, i'm here to also share your frustration with these sub-par PC laptop manufacturers. but we can also learn a bit too.

I didn't even know what MST was. Google says its a DisplayPort tech. So assuming you had to do MST, you'd be using DP's MST and taking 2 DP's and converting them to HDMI.

Also, I hope you realize that HDMI 1.4 does support 3840x2160p @ 30hz. Over a single cable.

Lastly, this thread has some great reading - I learned a lot from it:
http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=1910290&mpage=1

- Basically this guy owns a 32" Sharp 4K monitor, which, for this guy's purpose, shows up as 2 x 1920x2160p @ 60hz monitors, because he's either using:
-- 1) MST w/ 2 x HDMI cables (the monitor has 2 HDMI inputs, and you can put them in DUAL mode) or
-- 2) MST w/ 1 x DP cable (this monitor has 1 DP input, and automatically puts itself in MST mode)
He's able to essentially able to get 3840x2160p @ 60hz by using this method.
- Note that the 4K Sharp really does support 2160p @ 60hz, whereas this Seiki is only rated @ 30hz.
- Post #15 has some great info on HDMI 2.0 vs DP 1.2.
- The guy's last post showed that after Nvidia updated their driver, he was finally able to get 3840x2160p @ 60hz w/ a single DP 1.2 cable (in MST mode, essentially 'tricking' the video card into pumping out 2 x worth of DP)
- Note that he's using 3 x GTX Titan in TriSLI

 

[Mushkins]

If businesses drove PC products, we'd still have floppy drives in all our laptops, because "that's how all businesses shared certain information".

PC makers have to drive to the technology to force adaptation (within reason obviously). April, 2014 can't come soon enough for me (end of extended support for WinXP, hopefully my multi-billion dollar company will convert us at that point).

It's a balancing act. Businesses are by far their biggest customers, with multimillion dollar contracts, services, and all the rest. But it's not a 1 to 1 relationship either, just because MegaCorp A has a 4 year contract with Lenovo now, there's no guarantee they're not going to sign a new contract with Dell when that 4 years is up. Yes, the PC makers are the ones who need to edge in change, but if they move too fast they lose the business. When that contract comes up for renewal and the Lenovo rep says "sorry, we don't put VGA on our PCs at all anymore because displayport is teh leetz," the MegaCorp CIO is going to respond with "So we need to replace all our perfectly good monitors and projectors if we want to move forward with this contract?" and you can absolutely bet there's a Dell rep sitting right outside the door ready to step in and say "Our products have VGA on them, you'll save hundreds of thousands of dollars by going with us."

I'll let you guess who's gonna get the contract come renewal We *would* still have floppy drives in everything if the majority of the manufacturers didn't choose to drop them as the default config and make them expensive optional additions at all about the same time. Legacy support is absolutely *huge* in the business world, god knows how many parallel only printers are floating around still. It's not ever about what's the "best" technology, it always comes down to the dollar.

 

[seitur]

Display Port is smaller, have much better capabilities, you can connect DP-to-HDMI and is royality-free.

Really there is no reason to not provide it.

 

[blackened23]

Precisely. Displayport costs less. It is a royalty free VESA standard with absolutely no costs, this is why Apple uses it. HDMI is only provided due to ignorance on the part of the companies adding it to their SKUs - and if i'm not mistaken, there are royalty fees associated with HDMI. (someone correct me if i'm wrong).

You can make anything work via DP, you can use adapters for VGA, DVI, HDMI, etc. But you cannot make HDMI work with 1440p and 1600p external monitors, period. Essentially, DP works with everything. The same is NOT true for HDMI. The only possible reason for including HDMI is for HDTV use, well - excuse me, but that is freaking stupid. I'd say the largest portion of consumers tend to hook their portable computers up NOT to HDTVs, but to real monitors - and this is besides the fact that Displayport can be made to work with whatever connection you want, as I mentioned earlier it works with VGA, DVI, HDMI, everything.

This lowest common denominator line of thinking among portable PC manufacturers (dell, HP, etc) is going to bite them in the rear - and they wonder why their garbage isn't selling. Why Apple is destroying them in sales. It's because Apple puts forethought into having quality parts and functionality in their machines. Apple isn't going to sell a cinema display at 1440p and then tell the consumer "OH HEY WERE GOING TO PUT HDMI ON THE MACBOOK ! Sorry you're stuck at 1080p on your Cinema Display.". Screw that. This is why PC manufacturers can't sell their garbage. They put no thought into quality or functionality, they're obsessed with making their tech specs look nice while shoving the lowest possible cost parts into their mobile SKUs. I look forward to seeing Haswell portables to see if this has changed, but I've given up hope on Dell. Perhaps Samsung or Lenovo can step up - some of their 2012 models were promising, but not quite there. We'll see.

 

[Infohawk]

It's a balancing act. Businesses are by far their biggest customers, with multimillion dollar contracts, services, and all the rest. But it's not a 1 to 1 relationship either, just because MegaCorp A has a 4 year contract with Lenovo now, there's no guarantee they're not going to sign a new contract with Dell when that 4 years is up. Yes, the PC makers are the ones who need to edge in change, but if they move too fast they lose the business. When that contract comes up for renewal and the Lenovo rep says "sorry, we don't put VGA on our PCs at all anymore because displayport is teh leetz," the MegaCorp CIO is going to respond with "So we need to replace all our perfectly good monitors and projectors if we want to move forward with this contract?" and you can absolutely bet there's a Dell rep sitting right outside the door ready to step in and say "Our products have VGA on them, you'll save hundreds of thousands of dollars by going with us."

I'll let you guess who's gonna get the contract come renewal We *would* still have floppy drives in everything if the majority of the manufacturers didn't choose to drop them as the default config and make them expensive optional additions at all about the same time. Legacy support is absolutely *huge* in the business world, god knows how many parallel only printers are floating around still. It's not ever about what's the "best" technology, it always comes down to the dollar.

All this talk about business wanting legacy support misses the fact that business laptops seem to be MORE likely to provide DisplayPort. DisplayPort's problem is with consumer laptops like the Sony Vaio Pro 13 or Acer S7 which only have HDMI. Meanwhile, a lot of the business models DO contain DisplayPort, along with VGA ports.