Why is Corporate America evil?

[SinfulWeeper]

<< Athanasius- I used the term "evil" because that readily invokes negative emotions in most people's minds. The anti-corporate activists just don't seem to think capitalism/business is simply "broken" (hey, our federal government is broken), but an incredibly objectionable, dehumanizing and destructive force.

I have a hard time sympathizing for the "poor argument" because I am not readily convinced that poor people would be better off if multinational corporations did not exist. When I look for examples of desireable economic behavior, I often look towards Asian Americans. I've see anecdotal examples where an Asian family will come to America, speaking not a word of English, and play by the rules of our captialistic system to become members of the middle class. They are very committed to education, self-improvement, family and hard work. To them, it seems, being poor is not necessarily a result of The Man working against them, but an indication that they need to work harder or smarter. Whenever I see an Asian family in my area, they are typically wealthier and better educated than I and are almost always together, i.e. not broken families, single-parent households, etc. While I have read the "horror stories" of being an Asian child with typical overbearing Asian parents, it seems to me that Asian Americans do not believe in self-pity or pointing the finger at others for any plight they may have.

I'm generally opposed to unchecked handouts to poor people on the premise that individual responsibility is essential to any fair society. Some people may indeed be poor as a result of a few tough breaks. A compassionate society will ensure that people who are in dire straits through little/no fault of their own are able to live at an acceptable standard of living. But I have a hard time shedding tears for people whose plights are a result of their own bad choices. For example, there is no way a 17-year old "woman" should be husbandless, have 2 children and yet not have completed high school and a result is forever banished to a revolving door of entry-level jobs and unemployment. This is ridiculous. Should society have to pay for these mistakes? If someone cannot check their sexual habits and bear children before they are able to provide, do we blame multinational corporations? No, we should blame the "woe is me" culture we have cultivated, the "my plight is a result of corporate greed" instead of the proper "to do well in a capitalist society, you have to play by the rules" mindsight. >>



I could not agree more. I have two 'girlfriends' (not the sexual type) who had their children young. They are currently on welfare or some other programs such as AFDC, Child Support, Food Stamps, you name it.. they have it. They claim to be unable to get out of their spot. But I offered them both an easy full time job getting paid $17/hr just so I do not see them ruin their lives, but they both turned down the jobs because all they do in my opinion is sit down collecting money doing nothing. Except one gave me in my opinion a bad lie for an answer. She told me she can not afford a baby sitter or daycare. I offered to pay for two months so see can get off her feet and she still declined. I think you can all see why I think it was a lie answer.

 

[Athanasius]

mithrandir:

Well, I would say that anything human that is broken has the potential to become an incredibly objectionable, dehumanizing and destructive force.

I don't see anything in your recent post that clashes with what I wrote. I do think government [EDIT- all people of wealth,power, inluence] should strive to provide some type of safety net for the truly impoverished. Being a Christian, my first tendency is to look at Scripture. Not to preach here (it isn't generally appreciated) but I think there is benefit in looking at Scripture from a purely pragmatic point of view. Especially the New Testament, which isn't so tied to place and culture as the Old Testament is.

Consider a snippet from Galatians 6:2,5 (King James Version):

Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. . . For every man shall bear his own burden

In context, the first "burden" has to do with someone who is sinking under a heavy load. In this particular context, the "sinking" is actually the fault of the individual. See Galatians 6:1.

But the second "burden," in verse 5, is a different Greek word that, in this context, I think means, "carry his own personal responsibility."

So, in the example that you mentioned, I would not automatically exclude the 17 year old mother of two who has made awful choices. After all, I have made awful choices before and am grateful that, through no merit of my own, those choices did not trap me in a "sinking situation."

The key is whether or not the 17 year old mother is willing to take responsibility rather than assign blame. If she is, than the burden can be lifted if the "law of Christ" prevails.

In the "asian" model you mentioned, they key for such a family is its determination to succeed. But I don't want to automatically exclude those without such determination. I tend to think that, if I were the product of such an environment, I would be just as apathetic. I want to be an individual who seeks to implement a system that makes it easier for people who lack it to "catch the good virus" of initiative and personal responsibility.

If the "good virus" is caught, then the cycle is broken and the children and grandchildren of those awful decisions actually become positive contributors to society. And far more importantly, they are rescued as individuals from a cycle that is bigger than them. Certainly these individuals have to make choices, but I think it hard to catch the good virus of initiative and personal responsibility unless you are exposed to an environment where it is prevalent.

This is where corporate America can be such an agent of redemption. I would look at Darrell Green, the cornerback of the Washington Redskins, as a model of this approach. He said, "The foolishness of celebrity-ism has given me an opportunity to make an impact." The reason Darrell Green has made such an impact on poverty and education in the Washington D.C. area is because he valued that impact even more than increased wealth. In his prime, he was a consistent pro-bowl NFL cornerback who could have left the Redskins and made more money. But he realized that staying might mean less money, but it would give him the long-term relationship with a community that is the necessary foundation of social change.

It isn't that accumulating more money is necessarily evil, it is that, at some point, rich is rich and I could accomplish so much more as an individual if I directed some of that wealth voluntarily into social concerns.

 

[skace]

The problem with all the arguments for capitalism (that I am seeing) is that people refuse to believe poor people can be hard workers. You live in some sort of fvcking dream world where all lazy people magically become poor and all hard working people magically become rich. The fact of the situation is this: Poor people on the majority are lazy because they are hopeless while rich people on the majority are lazy because they lack responsibility and take everything for granted.

It takes an ungodly ammount of effort (& luck) for a poor person to become rich. On the other end of the spectrum, it takes an ungodly ammount of stupidity for a rich person to become completely poor. So in all fairness, most people stay pinned or closely tied to the enviroment they are born into. So to say if you raised the level of the poor class, that people would continue being as unproductive as they were as poor people (instead of adopting the life style of the middle class they are now part of) is rediculous. I pray you never find yourself in a situation where you are unemployed and barely able to pay the child support bill every month, Boberfet. But I could probably wager you are semi well off and the child support bill is simply an inconvenience for you, poor is a status you will never have to worry about and therefor you can just heckle and point all you wish.

You show me one hard working rich person and I will show you 20 lazy rich people.

 

[Red Dawn]

Corporate America's fine. It's some of the Assholes who are in charge of it that may be the problem. For instance, those who were running Firestone. They knew that their product was flawed and that it could have an adverse effect on it's customers but they kept it hush hush for the sake of the Bottom Line. Then there those at Enron who had their accountants cook the books and who tried to climb out of their financial doldrums by gouging it's curtomers and by erroneously thinking that large donations to Politicians would keep them out of hot water.


If if either of these companies had been run by honest (and smart) individuals that had the slightest bit of moral fiber neither would have ended up in trouble.

 

[glen]

<< Corporate America's fine. It's some of the Assholes who are in charge of it that may be the problem. For instance, those who were running Firestone. They knew that their product was flawed and that it could have an adverse effect on it's customers but they kept it hush hush for the sake of the Bottom Line. Then there those at Enron who had their accountants cook the books and who tried to climb out of their financial doldrums by gouging it's curtomers and by erroneously thinking that large donations to Politicians would keep them out of hot water.


If if either of these companies had been run by honest (and smart) individuals that had the slightest bit of moral fiber neither would have ended up in trouble. >>



Megga dittos

 

[yellowperil]

I don't think corporate America is evil, but it is seriously flawed. Nowadays it's next to impossible to criminally prosecute a large corporation that knowingly produces unsafe products, pollutes the environment, endangers the health of its employees, engages in illegal economic activities, etc. Why? Because the structure of corporations is about limited culpability. Even if the corporation acknowledges some wrongdoing, who are they going to pin it down on? Everyone's got an alibi, like I didn't know this was going on, this was in xx department's hands, I'm just doing my job, I'm just doing what my superior told me to do, etc, etc. The CEOs and upper management will blame their subordinates for not informing them of the problem. If the government does prosecute large corporations, those corporations have highly specialized, highly paid attorneys vs. the government attorneys who work a variety of cases and don't know the ins-and-outs of the corporation and the industry like the other ones do. Corporate America has the money and prestige to attract the best lawyers in the country. In addition, when corporations do get punished, it is almost always just a slap on the wrist. They pay damages that relatively speaking, amount to a parking fine, when compared to a person with an average salary.

 

[BoberFett]

<< Soon most if not all mom and pops ISP's will be out of business because AT&T, Microsoft, AOL... all the big players are sharing a monopoly as far as interent is concerned. Unlike Microsoft with their OS and license practices, the combination of all of them will never be called a monopoly in US laws because if you decide to dump MSN, you still have other 'big' players like AOL to goto. The only hope is for the US government to get off their lazy arses and stop this before it happens. >>

If mom and pop ISPs were truly better, people wouldn't have migrated away from them toward national providers.

 

[BoberFett]

<< So do you just bunch them all together and say the hell with them? Vietnam vets, immigrants, WTC survivors and all? >>

Way to twist things. Don't have a real argument?

Vietnam vets are slackers? They fought in one of the harshest war environments this country has seen and they get benefits. WTC survivors will be taken care of. If an immigrant comes here to work and earn a living, then I welcome him. If they come here to mooch off the workers here, I say get the hell out.

Got any other stupid comments?

 

[busmaster11]

<<

<< So do you just bunch them all together and say the hell with them? Vietnam vets, immigrants, WTC survivors and all? >>

Way to twist things. Don't have a real argument?

Vietnam vets are slackers? They fought in one of the harshest war environments this country has seen and they get benefits. WTC survivors will be taken care of. If an immigrant comes here to work and earn a living, then I welcome him. If they come here to mooch off the workers here, I say get the hell out.

Got any other stupid comments? >>



You misunderstood me. I did not imply that ANY of the groups I mentioned are slackers.

 

[BoberFett]

skace

I've been poor. I never went to college. I spent a lot of time working crap jobs for crap pay. I ate my share of ramen noodles. But while I worked those crap jobs I bought a computer and some programming books. I had no idea what I was doing, but I went ahead and did it anyway. Fast forward about a few years, I'm a 23 year old making $60K/yr as a software developer. Don't try to feed me some bullsh1t line about how you can't move around from class to class. It takes work? You're goddam right it does. But if someone isn't prepared to work then why the fsck should I care about them? There's a big difference between not being able to work and not being willing to work.

And now I'm back to being poor again. After having been out of work for the past several months, I've cashed the last of my retirement accounts. I've been working a temporary night job and find work here and there. I'm scraping by, but I don't intend to stay here. I'm going to rebuild things. You should see some of the people I've worked with at this night job. They've got a complaint for everything and they never last long. These are the lazy. They're completely able to do the work, but they're too chicken sh1t to stick to the task. Well screw them, I'm not going to support them.

<< But I could probably wager you are semi well off and the child support bill is simply an inconvenience for you, poor is a status you will never have to worry about and therefor you can just heckle and point all you wish. >>


So unless you've been there you coddled little whiner, don't tell me what is and what isn't possible.

 

[Zenmervolt]

<< Corporate America's fine. It's some of the Assholes who are in charge of it that may be the problem. For instance, those who were running Firestone. They knew that their product was flawed and that it could have an adverse effect on it's customers but they kept it hush hush for the sake of the Bottom Line. Then there those at Enron who had their accountants cook the books and who tried to climb out of their financial doldrums by gouging it's curtomers and by erroneously thinking that large donations to Politicians would keep them out of hot water.


If if either of these companies had been run by honest (and smart) individuals that had the slightest bit of moral fiber neither would have ended up in trouble. >>

Just a bit about the whole Firestone debacle. If one does the math, one finds that the failure rate of the tires in question was less than one fortieth of one percent of the total amount of Wilderness AT tires sold. Not only that, but it's ludicrous to assume that there is a cause and effect relationship between a blowout and a rollover. I've had a couple blowouts including a front tire and I never experienced so much as a jerk on the steering. The main problem in the Firestone case was that people who were inexperienced with driving vehicles with a high center of gravity reacted in entirely the wrong way (perhaps the worst possible way) by yanking on the wheel and making abrupt manoevers. I'll concede the Enron point though.

<<A god that rewards the lazy on the backs of the hard working is no god of mine.>>

Well said. I'm continually amazed at the number of people who reason as follows: "Well, people who work hard have money, and that's not fair to people who don't work hard, so what we have to do is take money from people who have earned it and hand it out to people who are too lazy to earn it.".

ZV

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< So in all fairness, most people stay pinned or closely tied to the enviroment they are born into. >>


Actually this is not true. Economic studies that have analyzed the pattern of poverty have discovered that it is more common for an individual to move across class borders over their lifetimes than stay confined to a single class. It is uncommon for a person to be born poor and stay poor all their lives, as it is uncommon for a person to be born rich and stay rich. Such studies help dispel the notion that the presence of a lower class is inherently inhumane. If peoples' fortunes rotate from level to level over time, then a class system of varied economic strata is rather fair, or at least, not unfair.

 

[Athanasius]

Hi BoberFett:

I will confess that living in a crack neighborhood, standing in the grocery line buying the absolute bare essentials, getting dry bread from the local free food pantry, and feeding my family dry rye bread slyly masquerading as french toast can be particularly vexing if, right in front of me in the supermarket line is a person on welfare buying steak and twinkies bought with welfare checks.

But it is only vexing to me if I compare myself to that person. But why should I? Would I trade places with them? What is it about me that determined not to go on welfare when it provided a better lifestyle than I currently had? I really do not believe that I am superior to them. Existence somehow passed on to me the gift of initiative. I need to take more initiative in seeking to pass that along. Many in the corporate world demonstrate significant initiative. What can we do to help those who don't have it get it?

Those people on welfare (this scenario I spelled out happened several times) are probably still trapped in that crack neighborhood. I want them free. Isn't there some balanced system that helps those who currently don't have it catch "the good virus of initiative?" Doesn't someone have to show it to them for them to believe in it? Who better to show them than those who have the most initiative?

 

[Moonbeam]

Mister T seems to have the most self consistent argument. People are selfish so lets work with it. Make sure religion stays out of it.

For the rest it seems more an argument about how to or not to appeal to something better in our nature.

As to the former, in an environment where greed is required to survive you will likely find more than a sufficient amount of it to work with, so the key will be not to change the structure. The cost of doing business will take care of excesses so long as everybody isn't so self absorbed in their own greedy enterprises that fatal excesses go unnoticed.

Otherwise the questions seem to focus on education (morally uplifting influence) and environment (structural change). The former depends on inculcating a moral fiber into children from a young age, and the latter on reducing the kinds of influences that cause people to go bad, blighted neighborhoods, unemloyment, poverty etc.

It seems clear to me now in light of this summary, why a tremendous amount of scientific research is being expended to ascertain and evaluate the true nature of man. We will need that clear answer in order to understand how best to improve our world.

Oh wait, that tremendous effort is nowhere visible you say? I wonder why? Can anybody guess, aside form Boberfett who was expecting something all along, why we don't seem to be in a big hurry to understand ourselves. Yes, of course, we conceal the truth from ourselves behind an invisible wall. Each of us feels like he is the worst person in the world, doesn't know it, doesn't want to know it, and doesn't want to know he doesn't want to know.

A small hole lets in a lot of light when its the sun that shines.

 

[BoberFett]

Athanasius

I'd start by removing the welfare check as it currently exists. But I'm a cold-hearted SOB, so what do I know?

 

[Chubs]

<< Anybody want to take a stab at my question? If you dismantle Government, you get anarchy. If you dismantle Big Business, what takes its place? >>



A free marketplace starting from scratch. Bascially, Adam Smith's money triangle. From there, unless we change our system, Big Business will emerge again in a matter of time. Read up on Adam Smith.

 

[oLLie]

What a great thread! I feel like I'm learning a lot

(still waiting for linuxboy's uber-long post...)

 

[skace]

"I've been poor. I never went to college. I spent a lot of time working crap jobs for crap pay. I ate my share of ramen noodles. But while I worked those crap jobs I bought a computer and some programming books. I had no idea what I was doing, but I went ahead and did it anyway. Fast forward about a few years, I'm a 23 year old making $60K/yr as a software developer. Don't try to feed me some bullsh1t line about how you can't move around from class to class. It takes work? You're goddam right it does. But if someone isn't prepared to work then why the fsck should I care about them? There's a big difference between not being able to work and not being willing to work."

Uh, eating ramen is your idea of being poor? WTF my family lived off ramen for many many years, our car was held together by duct tape and rope, and our floor couldn't support actual furniture. But I wouldn't even consider us poor. I consider someone who doesn't even have a house to plug in the computer you could afford, poor.

"So unless you've been there you coddled little whiner, don't tell me what is and what isn't possible."

Nope, I've never been as far poor as some people and I doubt I ever will. Society keeps me in check and as long as I am halfway intelligent with my money I will never hit rock bottom.

"Economic studies that have analyzed the pattern of poverty have discovered that it is more common for an individual to move across class borders over their lifetimes than stay confined to a single class. "

So you can show me a continuous trend in people going from millionaire status to living out of newspapers on the street?

I still can't believe you people think 100% of poor people are lazy and have no hope. How could our society be so perfect that it grants the rich people non-lazy children and the poor people lazy children. Does god know who deserves what? I can tell you it is a lot easier to be hopeless when you are born into a world of the dying. You refuse to believe if these families lived normal middle class lives they would still choose to be completely lazy leeches, how amusing.

 

[mithrandir2001]

Athanasius- Your reasoning is sound and a pleasure to read. In terms of the "good virus", I feel its existence is so readily apparent that I do not understand why others have a hard time seeing it. It makes me consider my own life events: I was born into a very middle-of-the-road middle class family, suburban lifestyle, full-time working father (same company for 33 years), stay-at-home mother, 1 sister, etc. Attended public schools, chose honors and advanced placement courses in high school, graduated in top 10%, attended Penn State (no scholarships), changed my major once, took 2 co-ops (both at Fortune 100 companies), graduated with a BS in 5-1/2 years, took a job with another Fortune 100 company, stayed there 4 years, left for a dotcom, got laid-off after 6 months, found work at a medium-sized company and that's where I am now. Financially, I am doing fine...doing better than my parents. I just see it that education and a reasonable desire for a career is an realistically attainable path for thoughtful economic citizenship.

I pay a boatload of taxes, more each year than what it would take to keep a family of four above the poverty line. And I'm just a 28 year old with ordinary beginnings. You go to school, be a good student, attend college - if you think you can't afford it, you're probably wrong - and work/study towards good performance, obtain experiences, skills and character traits that employers want, get a job and provide for yourself. I don't think this is anything at all unusual...I consider this mainstream, what you are supposed to do. Never did I consider not attending college or not finding a career job. You just did it. That's what family and an understanding of the capitalist system breeds.

I don't hate Corporate America. They provide jobs; a way of life. They provide good and services that have made the human condition more tolerable. I like electricity and privately owned automobiles, thank you very much. Their earnings ("greedy profits") propelled the stock market to 20% annual gains from 1995-1999 and my retirement account went for the happy ride. So perhaps some of their motives are unethical. I cannot imagine any earthly organization of men where unethical activities won't rise to the forefront occasionally. This is not to say these activities are acceptable, but people are being unrealistic if they think ridding the world of Big American Corporate Influence will be a panacea to humanity. The "only" way I see humanity raising its condition without remorse is if everyone acts consciously to do the best they are able and if they choose not to, not to whine about the "greed" of the more productive members of society.

I'm reminded of the lyrics to The Trees by Rush.

There is unrest in the forest
There is trouble with the trees
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas

The trouble with the maples
And they're quite convinced the're right
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light

But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade

There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream "Oppression!"
And the oaks just shake their heads

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights
The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light

Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw

 

[Athanasius]

BoberFett Quote:

<< I'd start by removing the welfare check as it currently exists. But I'm a cold-hearted SOB, so what do I know? >>



Well, I don't agree with what I assume was your sarcastic self-assessment.

The Apostle Paul said, "The very thing I most want to do is remember the poor." (Galatians 2:10)

But, in the churches that Paul planted with such a strong desire to help the poor, he said, "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

I don't have any easy solution, but I take as my Christian duty to exhort the wealthy to take a lot of initiative in helping the poor. Consider 1 Timothy 6:18-19:

<< Command the rich to to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. . . so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life >>



Corporate America has the potential to give tremendously. Some who do find a rare serendipidity: they discover a quality of life that is far more satisfying than the hungering ambition that propelled them up the corporate ladder in the first place.

Isn't that a win/win situation?

Meanwhile, here we are. How do we get from here to there?

 

[BoberFett]

<< So you can show me a continuous trend in people going from millionaire status to living out of newspapers on the street? >>

You can try to prove your point by trying to find the most extreme situations, but it only makes you look like a fool.

 

[OUdejavu]

THIS WHOLE THREAD MAKES ME SICK! You all sit here and bitch about the very thing that gives you the leisure and opportunity to do so. That thing is capitalism. America would not be the proud, prosperous nation it is today without it. Anyone who has glanced at a book on modern economics knows its theoretically the best way to utilize resources. America today is pretty good confirmation of that. Sure it sucks when a company lays off 1000 people. But what should they do? Keep paying them and run the company into the ground, screwing over employees, creditors, and stockholders alike. Capitalism does what causes the most good for the most people. People whine and complain about capitalists taking advantage of third world countries, exploiting the poor workers on bare minimum wages. What they don't seem to consider is that if those poor workers had something better to do, they wouldn't be working for capitalists. You think we are abusing third world countries, when we are really providing a better opportunity than they had before. Capitalism provides incentives for hard work. Think of the most influential inventions that affect your life. Computers, cars, airplanes, trains, the internet, Segway for god's sake. They were all invented in America, the evil capitalist empire. You all get mad at corporate America for the exploitations you think they are making, trying to maximize their profits. But that greed sparks more productivity than any other system. In the end its how much corporate America produces that determines how rich we are, money's just a way to divide it up.

But here's the bottom fvcking line: Capitalism is the ultimate expression of freedom, the foundation of America. You never forget the freedom of religion or speech, but you callously discard the idea of economic freedom! If anything American capitalism proves that freedom is right, something that we all believe at the root of our soul, but capitalism gives us evidence. So I for one am going to give capitalism the respect it deserves, and remember its one of the freedoms I enjoy as an American.

I also recognize your right to be a dumb@ss, so if you want to hate capitalism go ahead.
---the end

 

[skace]

"You can try to prove your point by trying to find the most extreme situations, but it only makes you look like a fool."

Uhm, does that mean there are no cases of a rich person going to poor? Or that rich people never hit poor status? I was just told people constantly change classes. I was assuming going from rich to poor was a fair change, since the comments were in reply to my rich to poor post.

You can call me ignorant for wanting everyone to have a better life style. You are probably right as I am not in the government or politics. I don't know every rule and I don't know how everything works. But in the end I know you are not the least bit more intelligent than me for turning a blind eye and pretending you live in some sort of perfect society that can do no wrong. Thats right, keep believing this society is perfect and that people are all just fat, lazy slobs. The poor are born lazy and the rich are born perfect. We should just kill all the poor people since they seem to have some sort of lazy disease. Oh but thats right, we can't kill the poor people because capitalism depends on them.

 

[mithrandir2001]

OUdejavu- Your point is noted about the "sickness" of the thread. I made the mistake of creating this topic during the late evening hours, when apparantly all of l337 h4x0r d00d5 are spewing their adolescent diatribes. Notice, however, that when the "day crowd" shows up, the thread becomes far more insightful.

 

[OUdejavu]

Actually, capitalism relies on poor people least. That's why they don't get paid as much. If corporations relied on them then they would pay them more, and they wouldn't be poor....

NOTE: I don't think there's anything wrong with poor people, I am very poor right now, myself. I just don't think that the existance of a poor class should be laid at the foot of capitalism. In every society, except communism, in which everybody's poor, there is a poor class. But in America there are not many people who are absolutely poor, i.e their life is in danger on a daily basis due to being poor. That's not the case for the MAJORITY of the world. Count your lucky stars, even if you are a poor American.