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Why is Corporate America evil?

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<< I'm glad you asked. Corporate AmeriKKKa is a hydra-headed multinational MONSTER. They rule on the exploitation of cheap labor in third world places that fall outside the normal protections we provide to people in most cities in this country. We are not angels ofcourse but we at least have the legal options to pursue these evil bastards when they exploit, hurt, endanger, and do all sorts of harm to poor people. Look at the recent Anthrax case. All those white corporatist types, former or current lawyer masters and their pasty faced assistants were treated first for POSSIBLE EXPOSURE. Yet the largely poor, working class, and under-educated people who handled the INFECTED MAIL, hauled the heavy bags, and who have to answer to these blue-suitrf losesr, they were ignored for over a week and their lives placed in incredible danger because they are not considered HUMAN beings. These poor people can be thrown away, re-placed, and re-trained like a bunch of baboons. Now take this same mentality and apply it to some dictator ruled jungle gym of a country in asia or central america and you can begin to cringe at the gross exploitation of the poorest and least educated people on earth. The have no one to defend them, least of all their own governments. They live, breath and work at the mercy of their overseers who can fire them for the least imagined mistake with no hope of possible labor mediation. Corporate GREED is why we are in Afghanistan today. Corporate-
Military structures form the backbone of the secret world government that major powers use to spread their sickening greed and materialist values to the farthest corners of the earth. I would go so far as to say that Multinationals are the TRUE Governments. Forget elections. Forget all these comic book notions of fair representative elections. What exists is pure greed that seeks to control as many lives as possible to further their own political agendas and to create friendly consumer markets for their own subliminal ideas to spread. >>

You, sir, are an idiot. Enjoy your time in college or on the commune, and have fun campaigning for organic hemp, but don't expect me not to laugh when you're living in some low-rent apartment decrying the "socio-economic prejudices" that forced you there. One last thing, it has been proven time and time again by psychologists that subliminal messages do not work, then again, why would you bother to check that out? After all, your entire argument is nothing more than a knee-jerk emotionalist reaction without any supporting evidence.

With that done, I'll move on. What a lot of the anti-technologists fail to realise when they lament that "corporate america" is "dehumanizing" to the workers is that a job is dehumanizing only if you allow it to be. I am reminded of the time my grandfather had to take work on a farm for $1.00 per hour, he didn't complain about the work, he just did it because it had to be done. The people who worked with him said he was the hardest worker there and that he was the most likeable worker as well. It seems interesting to me that this work made him more human. On my college campus there has recently been a large push for a "living wage". The most striking thing to me about this was that the people who were the most vocal in support of the living wage were those who did the least work. The food service workers, for example, are among the laziest people I have ever seen, and it routeinely takes them more than a minute to realise that there is someone standing in line waiting to be checked out. I'm sorry, but the time those people put in is not worth more than minimum wage, in fact, their time is probably worth less than the artificial minimum wage. The neo-luddites can shout all they like about the plight of the proletariat, but the fact remains that the greatest periods of development have been those during which true laissez-faire Capitalism was most closely approximated. Mithrandir2001 was very well spoken when he said, "Companies pay my salary. Companies make products I want. Companies make money for stockholders, a status almost anybody can attain. What is the evil here?". The question, of course, is rhetorical. Any thinking, rational man can see that the only answer is "There is no evil.".

ZV
 


<<
Tax everybody a flat 50% and put it back into the communities. Give every person basic living conditions, fix our cities and schools and use the money to increase our military effeciency and strength. Only then will we be a truely great nation. Right now our nation is all about people leeching from it and dying with more money than they could possibly ever use
 >>


yeah, that'll work. tax everyone into the poorhouse and give that hard earned money to the welfare leechers and government pork projects.
 
"So just give the poor more money and they'll be fixed, huh skace?"

Read my very last words: "I don't think our government can efficiently spend money." I don't want money simply thrown away and pretend its being used well. It needs to be used effectively. Left to their own devices, most people wouldn't care if their neighbor died of starvation on their door step.

What would you say is one of the most important parts of life? I would say it would be the things you learn as a kid. How come we pay our teachers utter SH!T to teach our kids? You know what kinds of people teach kids the rights and wrongs? People that weren't smart enough to be a scientist, but can pretend to be smart enough to teach science. Our school system is built to filter out the best kids instead of teach everyone how to be the best. If you do average you are worthless. I didn't mean to offend any teachers here, if you are a teacher I respect the job you do for the pay you get. I have had so many bad teachers though it isn't even funny.

My Junior High History teacher ended up being a pedophile who was working in cooperation with the principle to spy on the girls dressing room with cameras, when they were caught (after I was gone) they were found with archives and archives of tapes. My religion teacher in 10th grade was almost militant, he got kicked out for threatening to kick a kids ass. My literature teacher was a 27 year old female who enjoyed reading to the class instead of teaching, she was a very nice lady but she would have made a better kindergarden teacher. Numerous teachers that fit the role of "heres the book, follow it, pass in your homework and get a grade". They didn't actually teach you anything, just read you the assignment book and gave tests that sometimes weren't even reflective of the material you were learning. And who here has had numerous teachers who sound like they are learning the material they are teaching you at the same time they teach it.

So no, I am not just saying throw money at the poor. I am saying put money back into the community where it is obviously needed. By basic human living conditions I meant each person has a roof over there head, food in the fridge, and a decent schooling system they can go to. You think that is too much to offer?

Personally, I'm wondering if when I have a kid if I will even send him/her to school. Or whether I will have him/her home schooled.

For a descent system I was looking more towards Canada and not USSR.
 
Companies pay my salary. Companies make products I want. Companies make money for stockholders, a status almost anybody can attain. What is the evil here?

damn you enron! damn you!!!
 
"yeah, that'll work. tax everyone into the poorhouse and give that hard earned money to the welfare leechers and government pork projects. "

Uhm, There wouldn't be a "POORHOUSE" in that enviroment, that was the entire point and you fvcking missed it. The money would also have to go to something more than 'government pork projects' and I recognized that.

Oh yea, and just for the record here: no matter what enviroment we lived in I would be able to strive and make money. I am not some lazy bastard looking for free money nor am I a poor person. I simply like the idealogy that if everyone was giving back a set ammount to the community and we had an intelligent way to use it to fix broken issues we would increase the living conditions for everyone. Is that a bad thought to have? Impossible I guess eh?
 
The answer to this question is BLACK and WHITE.

The goal of a corporation is to maximize shareholder wealth (Finance 101)

Now, you guys might consider greed evil. Depending on your morals, maybe you can even justify that is evil. However, greed creates efficieny. The efficient market hypothesis is primarily based upon the rational investor assumption.

When a firm decides how to maximize its profits, it must take into account externalities. Externalities are the social costs to society as a result of a firm's actions, i.e., a power generation facility polluting the environment, the health costs related to smoking cigarettes, the level of safety in cars, etc. A firm, in order to maximize profits, must assign a potential price to any of these externalities, or costs of doing business and calculate a risk/return matrix.

Example:
If a firm decided that closing a plant and laying off 1000 workers would result in a national boycott of its goods and services it would not close the plant.

Corportate America is not evil..... its greedy. It is the task of the government to say what is right and wrong. Corpprate America is not boud by morality, but by law. If you think greed is bad, well, then you probably should be living in a different social and economic environment. The reason greed works is because it is a function of human nature. Capitalism is the only way.
 
Perhaps I should ask this question: if Corporate America is indeed evil and must be dismantled, what should take its place?

Not to turn this into a religous discussion, but if you believe in the Bible, it looks like some form of system where the individual is paramount will be what God wants us to gravitate towards. Leadership/government will have to accept this fact or face the consequences.

There's some verses (forget which chapter, but one which deals with the endtimes) along the lines of "no person shall make and another own, no person shall grow and another eat", etc. If you look at most of the third world, they are pretty much stuck in the position of producing/growing for others while most of the people have nothing and go hungry. According to the Bible, God will not allow this type of system to continue. This system is perpetuated by globalization, which has been perpetuated by America and Europe.








 


<< So no, I am not just saying throw money at the poor. I am saying put money back into the community where it is obviously needed. By basic human living conditions I meant each person has a roof over there head, food in the fridge, and a decent schooling system they can go to. You think that is too much to offer? >>

First, the number of people who are homeless or can't afford to eat is pitifully small. You're making a bigger deal out of that than necessary.

Second is schools. students who are going to learn will learn. Those who refuse to won't. Pumping more money into schools won't solve social ills. Will more money make kids that fight in school less violent? Will more money convince kids who don't care to study? Will more money make the parents interested in making sure their children attend, let alone do their homework? Not a chance.

The problems in this country are not directly related to a lack of money, so any monetary fix will do little if anything. The problems in this country are value problems which can't be fixed through taxes and government programs.
 
"When a firm decides how to maximize its profits, it must take into account externalities. Externalities are the social costs to society as a resulting from a firm's actions, i.e., a power generation facility polluting the environment, the health costs related to smoking cigarettes, the level of safety in cars, etc. A firm, in order to maximize profits, must assign a potential price to any of these externalities, or costs of doing business and calculate a risk/return matrix."

That is nice but most of the time the firm chooses the easiest way out which is usually not the best way out. If a power generation facility is polluting the enviroment and it isn't worth it to fix the situation, they simply won't fix it until they get a slap on the wrist.

"There's some verses (forget which chapter, but one which deals with the endtimes) along the lines of "no person shall make and another own, no person shall grow and another eat", etc. If you look at most of the third world, they are pretty much stuck in the position of producing/growing for others while most of the people have nothing and go hungry. According to the Bible, God will not allow this type of system to continue. This system is perpetuated by globalization, which has been perpetuated by America and Europe."

So my son has to build our playstation 2 and Tv, daughter has to sew our clothes, wife has to grow vegetables while I build my own car and go halfway across the country to hunt? That is a beautiful way to make everything EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT. By not sharing knowledge you stale your own technological achievments. Or are you saying each country should only depend on itself? I think countries depending on each other is a good thing because it should eventially lead to the break down of countries and the buildup of a global economy. When earths people unite under one common citizenship that would be the ultimate society.
 
Religion is inherently communist

Interesting that you said that. I've heard people say "Jesus was the ultimate communist". Maybe we can hope for some divine inspiration to amend our human nature, because if we could attain a true communist society (not what we've seen in Russia or China), then that would obvioulsy be the way to go.

If you believe in it, the Bible does say that those who don't follow along with Christ are going to have a real hard time. It may be some type of conditional training. You will either adopt the new system (no one makes and another owns), or Christ will make sure you are in for a rough road ahead (similar to what Egypt experienced with Moses) until you change your ways.

It also says we have to beat swords into plowshares. I guess America won't figure much into the entimes scenario because if we did, 2/3rds of the Dow would already be out of business.
 


<< Uhm, There wouldn't be a "POORHOUSE" in that enviroment, that was the entire point and you fvcking missed it. >>


no, i didn't miss your point. your point is nothing but idealistic crap that won't work when relying upon government to fix social problems. throwing money at these problems won't fix them.
 
Boberfett - A god that rewards the lazy on the backs of the hard working is no god of mine.

If you believe, according to Christ, no one can judge but Him. That's the beauty of it and why it could work. It won't be up to you (or humanity) because if it were, it would fail. The only thing we will be able to do/control will be to condition ourselves to adapt to the new system. Nations will either tow the line or be scourged.
 


<< A god that rewards the lazy on the backs of the hard working is no god of mine. >>



Maybe you're making the wrong assumption that all poor people are poor because they're lazy.

As for large corporations, how about the fact that most of them engage in anticompetitive measures and tax evasion?

How many companies has Microsoft put out of business due to packaging deals and takeovers?
 
Define "evil."

I think the moment one say, "The problem is that xyz is evil," that one puts himself in a no win situation. I the context of this thread, I would define "evil" as "broken."

From that position, I think we are all broken. So why not put my energy and focus on curing evil where I have the most influence: myself and the actual individuals I interact with?

I don't see capitalism or corporate wealth or communism as intrinsically evil/broken. I see people as being that way. Therefore whatever system we construct has flaws, and potentially fatal ones. Change the people and the people will minimize the existing flaws in whatever system they find themselves.
 
<<As for large corporations, how about the fact that most of them engage in anticompetitive measures and tax evasion?>>

Tax evasion is not always necessarily illegal in the corporate sense. Insurance companies setup Bermuda based companies all the time to take advantage of tax laws. Companies harvest NOL's all the time to offset future profits

<<How many companies has Microsoft put out of business due to packaging deals and takeovers? >>

Takeovers are good. If you are a solid company with good management, the chances of getting taken over are nil. Takeovers create an efficient environment and ultimately are in the best interest of the taget's shareholders. There are several defensive techniques to reduce the chances of a takeover... these inlude:

Poison pill
Staggered board
Supermajority vote
Change of control clause
Blank check preferred



 
Well, shfrbv touches on a thought that Plato emphasized in his Republic: The real solution would be a genuine, altruistic Philosopher-King with absolute authority who used it in truly benevolent ways.

In Christian thought, this person is Jesus of Nazareth. But, in Christian thought, the craving for such a leader is not the immediate panacea that it might seem to be. Christian thought says that the world will eventually seek its own Philsopher King, but that this individual will betray and enslave the world before the "real" kingdom comes.

shfbrv, are you suggesting that such a concept is the only cure for corporate America?
 
Overall I do not have a problem with corperate america. However after personal experience I 100% hate corperate robbers. If anybody here would like to know what I am talking about, take a look at a bankrupt company called MarkAir (Long out of business, so reseach will be required).

However on this thread people stick-up for Microsoft (I wonder who...). My father owns an ISP called Nook Net. Back at the time of creation, Netscape and Internet Explorer were not free. You had to pay $$ for them. The fact is most people use IE except for the more technically minded who want more power that Microsoft can not handle (or Netscape for that matter.) However my father called both Netscape and Microsoft for licenses to distribute. At that time Netscape gave a price of around $4,000/yr for unlimited number of licenses to distribute. Microsoft gave a price in the $15,000/yr range. However at that time they also told my father you can distribute IE with unlimited licenses for free. The price is very simple. Just do not sell/distribute any other web browsers.

Before that time we both though that it would be highly likely Microsoft is trying for a Monopoly. After that license issue, we knew they were and refused to distribute IE. We told a lot of people they were, and them people did not beleive us. Now it was even ruled by a court of law on their behavior that they are a monopoly.

However it does not make any matter. Soon most if not all mom and pops ISP's will be out of business because AT&T, Microsoft, AOL... all the big players are sharing a monopoly as far as interent is concerned. Unlike Microsoft with their OS and license practices, the combination of all of them will never be called a monopoly in US laws because if you decide to dump MSN, you still have other 'big' players like AOL to goto. The only hope is for the US government to get off their lazy arses and stop this before it happens.
 


<< Show me one hard working poor person and I'll show twenty poor slackers. >>



So do you just bunch them all together and say the hell with them? Vietnam vets, immigrants, WTC survivors and all?
 
I think another problem why companies are getting a bad rap is because they all talk about Adam Smith's "free market" but if you look at their actual practices, they are anything but that. Smith would be rolling over in his grave.

Free markets stimulate the economy and provide the best environment. But because our government is corrupt as anything and can be swayed by the biggest check, we see nothing but stupidity and inefficiency coming out of Washington and even our local states. Cable companies, agriculture, HMO's, etc. Things are a mess because of misguided efforts which should have never been undertaken in the first place.

Now we see competition stifled because the government has granted monopoly rights to certain individuals/companies disallowing any alternatives to the consumer.

Case in point, the National Institute of Health says they have a shortage of pharmacists right now. But if you look at the local universities, the state has recently mandated that pharmacy majors attend 2 extra years of college than they had to just 2 years ago. Also, the state is mandating that only 1 university can teach this subject matter in the whole state. This creates a false (contrived) labor shortage and is a prime example of why healthcare costs are driven sky high in the US. If everyone had the ability to pursue this field, the market would be flooded with health professionals and labor costs would go down. But instead, mandates are put on how many students can attend and which schools can be certified disallowing an alternatives to the public.

The government is a big part of the problem. And when you pair this with a company who is having an "off year" or "hard times" such as many American companies have over the last couple of years, it's a disaster.
 
Athanasius- I used the term "evil" because that readily invokes negative emotions in most people's minds. The anti-corporate activists just don't seem to think capitalism/business is simply "broken" (hey, our federal government is broken), but an incredibly objectionable, dehumanizing and destructive force.

I have a hard time sympathizing for the "poor argument" because I am not readily convinced that poor people would be better off if multinational corporations did not exist. When I look for examples of desireable economic behavior, I often look towards Asian Americans. I've see anecdotal examples where an Asian family will come to America, speaking not a word of English, and play by the rules of our captialistic system to become members of the middle class. They are very committed to education, self-improvement, family and hard work. To them, it seems, being poor is not necessarily a result of The Man working against them, but an indication that they need to work harder or smarter. Whenever I see an Asian family in my area, they are typically wealthier and better educated than I and are almost always together, i.e. not broken families, single-parent households, etc. While I have read the "horror stories" of being an Asian child with typical overbearing Asian parents, it seems to me that Asian Americans do not believe in self-pity or pointing the finger at others for any plight they may have.

I'm generally opposed to unchecked handouts to poor people on the premise that individual responsibility is essential to any fair society. Some people may indeed be poor as a result of a few tough breaks. A compassionate society will ensure that people who are in dire straits through little/no fault of their own are able to live at an acceptable standard of living. But I have a hard time shedding tears for people whose plights are a result of their own bad choices. For example, there is no way a 17-year old "woman" should be husbandless, have 2 children and yet not have completed high school and a result is forever banished to a revolving door of entry-level jobs and unemployment. This is ridiculous. Should society have to pay for these mistakes? If someone cannot check their sexual habits and bear children before they are able to provide, do we blame multinational corporations? No, we should blame the "woe is me" culture we have cultivated, the "my plight is a result of corporate greed" instead of the proper "to do well in a capitalist society, you have to play by the rules" mindsight.
 
do we blame multinational corporations

Another point, then I'll get out of this thread because people are probably getting sick of me by now. 🙂

Right now, if we look at who weilds the true power in our society, it's the corporations. Because of this, they must assume the role of being the stewards of society. When we see poverty increase, when we see teen pregnancy increase (a condition that happens when people are not educated), when we see homelessness and unemployment increase, when we see test scores fall to all time lows, and 2/3 of our nation's children living in poverty, we know that they are not being good stewards. Alot of people like to talk about class envy in the US. I don't look at it like class envy at all. I dislike the "haves" not because they "have" but because they have allowed such deterioriation of society to occur under their watch. They have the greatest ability to affect change, yet they do nothing. Corporations (who are just made up of regular people) don't promote "community" they don't promote "values" or even "ethics". This is why they are hated. Not because they all drive around in Mercedes or Jags.

It's OK to be well-off. But it's not OK to be well-off and see the types of conditions that I mentioned above when you are in that leadership position and do nothing. Too bad they don't believe in the old Shakespeare proverb "the more that I give, the more that I have". They could all stand a good Dickens tale this time of year.
 
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