Why is a pitcher who can throw 105mph only a relief pitcher?

[Imp]

Did I sleep in a holiday inn? No, I watched Fastball on Netflix last night. If you like watching baseball this is a very interesting documentary on every pitchers bread and butter pitch... the fastball.

Think there's an article about a female Olympic softball pitcher versus MLB hitters. Something about how fastball is anticipating where the ball will land once it's thrown versus tracking the ball to the plate in softball?

Anyway, my original point was just that throwing 100 mph doesn't instantly make you an amazing pitcher -- looked up a few and their ERAs aren't 0.00. Enough of them exist -- yes, they are special, but not unicorn special -- in the MLB that hitters/scouts have figured a way around them.

 

[rudder]

Amazing doc, can't believe nolan ryan pitched for 27 years and only at the end his arm gave out.

And he regularly threw 150+ pitches per game and topping out at 235 pitches. Very few pitchers ever go past 120 with most getting ready to leave the mound around 100 pitches. Nolan Ryan had a bionic arm no one knew about or something.

 

[pete6032]

Think there's an article about a female Olympic softball pitcher versus MLB hitters. Something about how fastball is anticipating where the ball will land once it's thrown versus tracking the ball to the plate in softball?

Anyway, my original point was just that throwing 100 mph doesn't instantly make you an amazing pitcher -- looked up a few and their ERAs aren't 0.00. Enough of them exist -- yes, they are special, but not unicorn special -- in the MLB that hitters/scouts have figured a way around them.

Softball pitchers throw under arm so they can send a ball moving upward towards the plate, while a pitcher who throws overhand is always throwing downward at the plate. The upward movement is much harder for a batter to hit.

 

[SearchMaster]

Greg Maddux wasn't a speed demon with his fastball but he could paint the corners and is a hall of fame pitcher because of his control of where wanted to ball to go.

The control and the late movement. Dat late movement doe.

The emphasis on power pitching today saddens me. A guy like Maddux probably broke 90mph a couple of times per game but was so effective because of his other tools. But 90mph in the late 80s was still above average. Today it's fairly common amongst high schoolers. This article talks about how Maddux was lightly regarded due to his arm strength 30 years ago. Today I'm not sure he would even get the opportunity.

 

[purbeast0]

i don't think JEDI realizes that you aren't supposed to throw the ball at people's ankles in baseball.

 

[KLin]

Because he can't do this?

That's a balk.

 

[KentState]

Having followed the Reds for many years, Chapman's game suffered when he was used too much. Even in relief, going more than two nights in a row really killed his speed and accuracy. He had a pretty good slider and off speed going near the end which really tripped batters up. 100 mph fastball, 95 mph slider and then a 80mph off speed. He got a lot of batters out though with an up and in fastball that most couldn't catch up with. They would either have to guess and swing early or watch it go by.

 

[zinfamous]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/aroldi...-pitch-ties-his-own-mlb-record-135341122.html

Instead of a starter?

Have you ever actually watched baseball?

Usually, those with the highest velocity tend to be closers and expect no more than 3 outs per game, and not back-to-back games if it can be helped.

throwing at 105 mph consistently is not doable for a minimum of 5-6 innings on a 5 game rotation.

 

[zinfamous]

He was a failed starter and now has repeatedly says he wants to be a closer.

And while I'm impressed by his 105+ heater, I'm more impressed by the filth that closer Zach Britton throws. 98MPH sinkers that wind up at your shoelaces are just plain unfair.

damn, that should be outlawed. :awe:

 

[zinfamous]

Speed isn't everything and while few in the general populace can probably throw that fast, enough in the MLB can to make it not as special.

Greg Maddux is one of the best pitchers ever and I don't think he ever topped ~92mph on his fastball? I think ave over his career was something like 88mph.

Greg Maddux was great, though, because he had HoF control, and I recall him once mentioning the 3 pillars of pitching:

1. Hit your target
2. vary your speed
3. throw strikes.

Throwing hard all the time is as good or as bad as throwing curve balls in the dirt all the time. Both, thrown consistently, usually mean a pitcher that has poor control and tends to give up a ton of walks and a ton of homeruns or hits. This is why most strikeout pitchers usually have pretty poor ERAs over their career (Pedro was a bit of a freak in this department, though--but it was because he had excellent control and that nasty FB/CU combo).

 

[zinfamous]

Sure it is. The difference to the batter trying to hit a 92 mph fastball vs one that is going 100+ is phenomenal. A batter trying to hit a 92 mph fastball can process 25X more visual data vs a 100mph fastball. At 100mph the human mind cannot keep up with the processing of where the ball is going to be traveling which is crucial in order for a batter to make contact with a ball. Hitting a 100mph pitch is basically a lucky guess. Crazy when you think the difference between those two pitches is milliseconds... something like 392 milliseconds

Did I sleep in a holiday inn? No, I watched Fastball on Netflix last night. If you like watching baseball this is a very interesting documentary on every pitchers bread and butter pitch... the fastball.

But you are right when you say that not a whole lot of pitchers can hit 100+. Greg Maddux wasn't a speed demon with his fastball but he could paint the corners and is a hall of fame pitcher because of his control of where wanted to ball to go.

Well, I think when he said "speed isn't everything" he meant for pitching, not for throwing fastballs. Obviously, speed is everything for just throwing a fastball, but if all you can do is throw 100mph fastballs, then you would never be a starter. I guess this is why Mariono Rivera was never a starter.

I keep meaning to watch that doc--been in my queue for some time now.

 

[Homerboy]

Greg Maddux is one of the best pitchers ever and I don't think he ever topped ~92mph on his fastball? I think ave over his career was something like 88mph.

Greg Maddux was great, though, because he had HoF control, and I recall him once mentioning the 3 pillars of pitching:

1. Hit your target
2. vary your speed
3. throw strikes.

Throwing hard all the time is as good or as bad as throwing curve balls in the dirt all the time. Both, thrown consistently, usually mean a pitcher that has poor control and tends to give up a ton of walks and a ton of homeruns or hits. This is why most strikeout pitchers usually have pretty poor ERAs over their career (Pedro was a bit of a freak in this department, though--but it was because he had excellent control and that nasty FB/CU combo).

Maddux and his approach to pitching was the best. He showed that pretty much "anyone" can be a pitcher -- you don't have to throw 95+ to advance.

This is the same approach I take with my son and his pitching "career". Since he's been young and wanted to play ball and be a pitcher have done nothing but preach location, control and strikes. And he's been quite successful with that approach.

The sad thing is every pitching coach, every "academy", every scout, every everyone only cares about "how fast does Billy throw?" It's what they sell to the people that they want to sell their services to and it drives me nuts. I've seen dozens of kids pitch that throw faster than anyone else... and they walk the bases loaded. Useless.

There is just WAY too much emphasis on speed in today's pitching. There are FREAKS now in the MLB though that throw 98+ and are starters. Breaking balls at 90+. And they last 6+ innings. Crazy stuff.

 

[Homerboy]

I keep meaning to watch that doc--been in my queue for some time now.

It's great. Very well done.

There's an earlier one on Knuckleballers too which is quite interesting. At 42 years old (and I mean OLD) it made me want to pick up a ball and learn to throw a knuckler and break into the Big Leagues

 

[zinfamous]

It's great. Very well done.

There's an earlier one on Knuckleballers too which is quite interesting. At 42 years old (and I mean OLD) it made me want to pick up a ball and learn to throw a knuckler and break into the Big Leagues

Yeah, that's been in my queue even longer (obviously).

Adding movies to my Netflix queue is one of my favorite pastimes.

 

[Scarpozzi]

This late in the thread, the answer's already been laid out. I always do a comparison though when it comes to muscle and longevity. You could make the argument that the guys that throw speed, can't do it long....just like sprinters aren't good for much past 400 meters at their typical pace. A skilled pitcher takes time between pitches and plays subtle games with the hitters....many study the hitters and know their tendencies to gain an edge. The skill comes when they have a number of pitches they've mastered and can throw precise placement...

You could compare it to rookie NFL QBs with big arms straight out of college divisions where a thrown ball is a caught ball for a TD. They get to the NFL and throw straight downfield and end up only throwing mostly INTs or choking by the 3rd quarter.

 

[jman19]

Greg Maddux is one of the best pitchers ever and I don't think he ever topped ~92mph on his fastball? I think ave over his career was something like 88mph.

Greg Maddux was great, though, because he had HoF control, and I recall him once mentioning the 3 pillars of pitching:

1. Hit your target
2. vary your speed
3. throw strikes.

Throwing hard all the time is as good or as bad as throwing curve balls in the dirt all the time. Both, thrown consistently, usually mean a pitcher that has poor control and tends to give up a ton of walks and a ton of homeruns or hits. This is why most strikeout pitchers usually have pretty poor ERAs over their career (Pedro was a bit of a freak in this department, though--but it was because he had excellent control and that nasty FB/CU combo).

Maddux was easily one of my favorite pitchers to watch. True mastery of the strike zone. An artist.

 

[Homerboy]

Yeah, that's been in my queue even longer (obviously).

Adding movies to my Netflix queue is one of my favorite pastimes.

Obviously there's the whole Ken Burns "Baseball" documentary too. That's about as good as it gets.

 

[SP33Demon]

Red Sox prospect Kopech also hit 105 on the gun:
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/07/michael-kopech-boston-red-sox-105-mph-fastball-what-mlb

 

[zinfamous]

Maddux was easily one of my favorite pitchers to watch. True mastery of the strike zone. An artist.

Good friend of mine (long time Braves fan--not me, I'm a Mets fan and so loathe the Braves), always thought that Maddux looked like he belonged on top of a tractor out on some farm somewhere.

I never understood that until I saw him not in uniform on TV at some point. Dude totally looks like he should have been a farmer.

 

[SP33Demon]

Maddux looked more like a nerd to me with the professorial glasses. Not to mention his nickname "The Professor".

 

[zinfamous]

Obviously there's the whole Ken Burns "Baseball" documentary too. That's about as good as it gets.

I watched then when it was first released. Was pretty disappointed that the history of baseball more or less ended in the early 70s, though (about when the original series finished)...though I sorta agree because this would be before the DH poisoned the game.

I know there has been some "extra innings" episode for several years now, but I never watched it.

I love those early episodes of the series, though. Still, not as accurate and well-researched as this piece on the early days of the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkSZGXmuvIo

 

[Artorias]

You don't have to throw heat to succeed, just look at my Blue Jays pitcher Marco Estrada, the guy averages a 90mph fastball but has the best changeup in the game, likely a Cy Young candidate too.

 

[KentState]

Just look at Bronson Arroyo. He has been able to maintain a winning season 9 out of the last 11 seasons which are mostly in the later part of his career. He threw a 88mph fastball, but a ton of junk in the 50's and 60's that tripped batters up.

 

[jman19]

Good friend of mine (long time Braves fan--not me, I'm a Mets fan and so loathe the Braves), always thought that Maddux looked like he belonged on top of a tractor out on some farm somewhere.

I never understood that until I saw him not in uniform on TV at some point. Dude totally looks like he should have been a farmer.

Ha yeah - he really looked nothing like an athlete during his playing days. He didn't need much physical prowess - just enough on the FB to make his other pitches more effective.

 

[Imp]

Greg Maddux is one of the best pitchers ever and I don't think he ever topped ~92mph on his fastball? I think ave over his career was something like 88mph.

I watched baseball religiously during the early 2000s. Most memorable pitcher was Roy Halladay. Often threw full 9 inning games, seemed to average 9 strikeouts often, and had at least one amazing season (15+ wins, single digit losses) record despite being on a below-500 Blue Jays team for years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Halladay

He just retired but looks like he did very well. ERA of 3.38, 203-105 wins-losses. I don't remember him being known for speed. The wiki article suggests that he was a ~90 mph guy.