Why is 10k per student "not enough" when private schools do a better job for half the cost ?

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HappyPuppy

Lifer
Apr 5, 2001
16,997
2
71
Public schools have to take all kids; the good, the bad and the ugly. It's almost impossible to have a disruptive, mean or stupid kid thrown out of the system.

Private schools, including religious schools, can pick and choose their students. If a kid gets out of line and won't straighten out they throw him out.

Sounds pretty simple to me.
 

rocadelpunk

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2001
5,589
1
81
Originally posted by: Imported
My public school experience has been great. Best thing ever was when we (basketball team) routed (30-40+ victories every game) every private school that was in the same league.. :D

well private schools are good at tennis and golf : P

but that's just b/c people are more likely able to afford it.

my team was 2nd and 3rd in the state last 2 yrs (tennis)
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
CORRUPTION.

BINGO! We have a winner.

Oh and add on the excessive layers of administration most public schools have, the unions, english as a second language instructors (what a crock), Palaces for High Schools (don't believe me, come down here to the Houston suburbs and I can show you some $60M palaces) and on, and on , and on.
 

MithShrike

Diamond Member
May 5, 2002
3,440
0
0
Private schools do pay their teachers less and more often than not have teachers of substandard quality. My aunt is a teacher and she has applied at many private schools only to find out that the salary is $10K less than she is educated for and has the experience for. Much of public schooling's problem is the fact that the school board and administration do not know how to properly spend money. My MCSA teacher saved our school well over $5K by insisting that the school not buy 25 copies of Windows XP Professional, Server 2000, and quite a bit of other M$ products because the trial software already comes with our textbooks and we would not be on any section longer than 120 days. The stupid administration paid $61.50 per book for each of our courses. These same books can be found for $48.50. So, the administration wasted a good $325 that could have gone towards a reduced class fee or perhaps some crossover cables so we can finally daisy-chain the hubs.
rolleye.gif
 

phatj

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2003
1,837
0
0
I go to a private school. My area's "credentials"

There ARE government-aided food programs. I know a few kids that get free food @ lunch.

No Bussing? I see 4-5 yellow busses at my school every day. And besides, I think it's better to spend time with your youngins on the way to school. Good convo + no worry about ur kid puking on the bus.

In my state, private school account for perhaps 30-40% of all top ten athletic teams in the state (wrestling, baseball, basketball, football).

There is NO DOUBT whatsoever that private schooled kids attain higher SAT, ACT, and AP scores. Teachers are able to spend a lot more time indvidually with the students b/c smaller class sizes.

Private school teachers DO get paid less. But that says A LOT.

Private school teachers teach because they really enjoy teaching. Otherwise, they would easily get the extra 10k a year teaching at a public school. Higher paid teachers should = better educated students, but it doesn't seem to be that way.
 

tm37

Lifer
Jan 24, 2001
12,436
1
0
Part of the prblem is that public schools cannot expell students very easly.

SHould a child be misbehaving the parents can (and most do) claim that it's the teachers fault.

Should a student not want to do the rquired work it isn't because the student is lazy or stupid it's because the teacher did not motivate them.

We ask our public school teacher to be phycologists, councelers, social engineers.

However looking at that one could argue that it is of course that private schools have a better sample of students and that they of course will have better results. (he who has better seeds sows a greater crop).

But these same people who say that private schools have better students also claim that private schools have inferior teachers.

I just read a book by Thomas sowell reagrding the state of public education, It was very interesting.

So because private schools get the better students they get better results, but what if a state was to contract with a private school to run a "public school". Well the results were pretty shocking. Thoose lower priced teachers were able to get more out of the inferior students than their high priced counterparts.

Charter schools have been for the most part a success, nad the national teachers union has doen all to assure that these privately run schools will not get the light of day. Why would an orginization that claims to be about educating our young be so against these charter programs?

It could be because they use non union workers, But that is just a though.

The teachers union has done everything in it's power to make it nearly impossible for anyone to become a teacher in california by adding new requirements each year to new teachers. They claim that these new requirements are essential to assure that our children are properperly educated, yet if your are already a teacher you are exempted from the requirement. My sister reallyu wanted to be a teacher and each year shge would get the requirements and go do them only to find out that she needed more. After 3 years she gave up.

Why would the teachers union want to stop incoming teachers? Wouldn't a union want as many members as possible? Well not if you can use a shortage to your advantage.

I was walking into fry's one evening about three years aho in san diego. That fry's was (and might still be) know for the nuber of petitioners out side. There was a young lady with two petitions. One was for a maniditory class size reduction and the other was for some obscure requirement that the teachers union wanted to be added for incoming teachers.

There were two signs one read "GET CLASS SIZE DOWN"

The other read "ensure the quality of incoming teachers"

as I walked by with my almost two tear old son, the lady asked me to sign the petition, I said no thanks to which she responded "I guess you don't love your son"

Now I am pretty opionated and rarley do I lose my cool, and this was no exception. I picked up my son and walked over to her, and asked what they were.

She explained that the Califonia chapter of the teachers unbion was trying to get manitory class sizes on the ballot. I asked were the teachers were going to come from she didn't know. Without signing I asked about the second. She explained that we needed to ensure that new teachers needed better training. I calmly asked if EXCISTING TEACHER were going to be required to have the "NEEDED TRAINING" she said no. and assured me that the current teachers were well trained. I pointed out that if te current teachers were in fact well trained there would be no reason to add any additional requirements for incoming teachers as they will have gone through the same training as the excisting teachers she gave me a dumb stare and said that that just wasn't the case and "if you love your son and care about his future you will support theese bills"

She was a public school teacher. All in all I believe that me my son spent about 40 minutes discussing the merits of her proposed legislation and I did not sign either one of her petitions.

Nor did the numorous people that stop to see why this lady was getting all flustered with ta 20something guy holding a todler.

It did open my eytes quite a bit and I discussed it with a family freind who is a teacher, He lefgt california because he was fed up with the teachers union and the public school system in general. The California teachers union wants more teacher jobs but not nessisarly more teachers. If there is a shortage of teachers the teachers make more money and because the state is required to hire union teachers and the union is able to have more say in te requirements to become a teacher they dictate the way that califonia is going in the education system.

I love my son very much and I love my daugher as well, and that is part of the reason I left CA.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Shanti
Just wondering, cause I don't get it.
My son starts 3rd grade this week. There are 35 students in his class. His teacher said there are no classroom aids because they don't have the money for it. The parents buy all the markers, pencils, glue, kleenex, etc. The parents are asked to help by bringing snacks and to help in the classroom.
Our state spends 10k per year per student and the democrats are acting like anyone opposed to raising taxes is mean and evil because we are in a "budget crisis" and the kids are suffering.
One of the local private schools charges $3500 a year in tuition. They raise another $1500 a year per student in donations and fundraisers. Total cost of educating the student = $5000 a year. Class sizes are smaller, the schools have more and better materials, and the students perform better on state tests.

So why can't the public schools do a comparable job with TWICE as much money ?
Actually for handicapped kids like yours there are special programs that help fund their education
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Originally posted by: Epiphany
because the beaucracy of the school system is so assinine, at least in san diego unified school district. Im a HS senior. We cut teachers left and right and programs because of the "budget crisis" but Alan Bersin the superintendent renewed his contract for 4 years for 185k in mid 2002. Administration in the school system sure get it good, they sit on their behinds in their little offices driving their pricey cars (my last principle had a lexus, mercedes, and some other car i forgot). Why don't they take a price cut? We cut teachers jobs and what does my school do? Hire 3 administrative positions. Gimme a break, the school system is a joke.

The only reason I can think of the Super being so expensive is the cost of keeping him. In this day and age, no one in their right mind wants to be a Super, it's like signing up to be a fall guy. But what are you going to do, hire some guy at $50K, but knows nothing about how to be a Super? I'd love to see the price of a Super fall, but with the problems my old district had getting Supers and Principals, it seems like demand far exceeds supply.
 

Epiphany

Senior member
Nov 15, 2002
237
0
0
Originally posted by: ViRGE
Originally posted by: Epiphany
because the beaucracy of the school system is so assinine, at least in san diego unified school district. Im a HS senior. We cut teachers left and right and programs because of the "budget crisis" but Alan Bersin the superintendent renewed his contract for 4 years for 185k in mid 2002. Administration in the school system sure get it good, they sit on their behinds in their little offices driving their pricey cars (my last principle had a lexus, mercedes, and some other car i forgot). Why don't they take a price cut? We cut teachers jobs and what does my school do? Hire 3 administrative positions. Gimme a break, the school system is a joke.

The only reason I can think of the Super being so expensive is the cost of keeping him. In this day and age, no one in their right mind wants to be a Super, it's like signing up to be a fall guy. But what are you going to do, hire some guy at $50K, but knows nothing about how to be a Super? I'd love to see the price of a Super fall, but with the problems my old district had getting Supers and Principals, it seems like demand far exceeds supply.


fall guy? yea right, how hard is it to be a super? wanna know what bersin did today? He went around the city and met with all the kids and parents. oh and at one school he helped hand out ice cream. What a great PR scheme.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
Private schools AREN'T better. What computers does your private school have?

My mother teaches at a private elementary school. She also manages their network of about 50 Dell PCs (on a 3-year replacement cycle). They also have 20+ iMacs that are not on the network. Grand total of about 70 computers for a school of less than 200 students. I'd say that's not a bad ratio. They also have cable Internet. The middle/high school that is affiliated with her elementary school has a slightly lower ratio for its 300-350 students, and they have a T1 line. Not bad. I'd say the education I received at that school was overall better than what I'd receive at a public school, but the number of APs offered at the time (2) sucked. Honestly though - who cares? APs are great, but I enjoyed my 4 years of college and I wasn't in a hurry to graduate.

SAT scores at my school were 100+ higher than the local public schools. Tuition was about $4500 a year, and fundraisers were only used so that "scholarships" could be offered to low-income familes. The school did receive minimal state assistance, but the cost of educating me was far less than at any public school.
 

amnesiac

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
15,781
1
71
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Private schools don't bus students.
Mine did. Some all the way from Seal Beach, about 30 miles away.
Private schools don't have subsidised food programs.
Ours had financial aid for school workers' children
Private schools don't have the large number of learning disabled kids.
There are no tards in this city.
Private schools often times have limited sports programs.
At one time or another, we were state champions or had CIF champs in swimming, diving, water polo, basketball, baseball, and football. A new Lacrosse program was just started as well.
Of those limited sports programs many are privately funded by donations.
Fully funded by school.

Of course, current tuition is $12,500 a year. ;)

 

addragyn

Golden Member
Sep 21, 2000
1,198
0
0
I think the simplest answer that expains it they most is, they give a damn. Now I'm speaking generally here. But everybody @ a private school from faculty to parents to students have more of an effort to be there. And like so many Disney movies heart or spirit can accomplish more that throwing money at a problem.

I have to say. It blows my mind, nay saddens me, that we now have advertising in public schools.
 

Epiphany

Senior member
Nov 15, 2002
237
0
0
Originally posted by: addragyn
I think the simplest answer that expains it they most is, they give a damn. Now I'm speaking generally here. But everybody @ a private school from faculty to parents to students have more of an effort to be there. And like so many Disney movies heart or spirit can accomplish more that throwing money at a problem.

I have to say. It blows my mind, nay saddens me, that we now have advertising in public schools.

yea, last year my school district had a deal with pepsi, not anymore, coco-cola here we come!
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
34,367
1,547
126
The whole public school system is fsked. If you want to see my take on it (it's long), check out this thread on the second page.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
They don't do a better job. Higher income parents typically(but not always) have kids that outperform those who are underprivileged. Sucks... but it is reality. There are always exceptions but look at some of the new data from the No Fvcktard left behind act.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: Millennium
They don't do a better job. Higher income parents typically(but not always) have kids that outperform those who are underprivileged. Sucks... but it is reality. There are always exceptions but look at some of the new data from the No Fvcktard left behind act.

Higher income areas also typically have much better school than lower income areas... which may explain why they outperform the underprivileged. You can't say either is better than the other really (public or private that is, not high or low income), because not all schools are created equal. There are sucky private schools and good private schools, just like there are sucky public schools and good public schools. I'd guess the best private school would always outperform the best public school, but then the best private school does not cost half as much as the best public school. Likewise, the worst public school is most definitely much worse than the worst private school (consider some of the worst schools in New York - they have 40% or lower attendance rates. You definitely won't see that at a private school). But you can't compare the two groups as a whole, because there is a lot of variation.
 

RbSX

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2002
8,351
1
76
Originally posted by: BigFatCow
private school teachers get payed less than public school teachers.

You ARE kidding.. right?

And he is correct simply because they are private schools doesn't perticularily make them better.. some of them are worse and some of them are better. The extremely good ones are in excess of 10 grand. The private school I attend is 14,000 Canadian.
 

milagro

Golden Member
Jun 19, 2001
1,459
0
0
I can't speak for all states, but in Hawaii Private school teachers do NOT make less than public school teachers who earn an average of 35k annually..


as to the orig question, my guess may be because you're actually comparing a private school to a public school district and with most Board of Educations i've seen, the appropriation of funds to various disctricts and/or schools within each district is extremely questionable.

in short - politics and agendas..
 

takeru

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2002
1,206
8
81
what about state universities? i went to suny stony brook. it was bad enough the school spent a million dollars to build a giant fountain in front of the administration building that is rarely turned on. half the school dorms have a single oversized circular nightlight in the HALLWAY to the suite to light the livingroom. school meal plans are mandatory, meaning at least $1000 for food, unless you live in a suite that has a kitchen, then you only pay at least $400. most of the teachers may actually know what they are teaching, but don't know how to teach it. overpriced on-campus restaurants that charge at least 30% above normal prices compared to off campus, thereby using your meal plan money pretty fast. did i mention that if you don't use all your meal plan money before the end of the semester you lose it at the end of the semester? and the president of the university lives in a three million dollar mansion? this page has an interesting page showing how much everyone makes, especially administration.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Why simple..

Public schools have to provide huge federally mandated layers of administration... from EEO officers to school lunch condinators.

Public schools have to bus and take care of "special needs" students.

Public schools have to bargin with a powerful union which gives better pay and benefits to it's teachers.

Public schools have to use union labor usually in thier construction because it uses state and federal funds which increases costs.

Public schools have to keep the loosers enrolled while privates kick them out which is why disparity exisits in test scores.

Public schools can not displine the children as privates can.

BTW- Andover Academy is 35K per year (thats where Bush went) ..not so cheap eh..
 

vegetation

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2001
4,270
2
0
The multiple layers of administration is what kills public school educational budgets big time. Too many so-called "experts" involved who don't contribute anything constructive to the system, yet are paid ridiculous amounts of money for what they do. I remember as a child seeing a "school district meeting", all I remember is 100 like-new vehicles parking on our grass lawn. I later learned all these vehicles were paid for by the department of education. Why did they get a free car when our teachers didn't ? It took me years to figure that one out.

 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Originally posted by: Epiphany
Originally posted by: ViRGE
Originally posted by: Epiphany
because the beaucracy of the school system is so assinine, at least in san diego unified school district. Im a HS senior. We cut teachers left and right and programs because of the "budget crisis" but Alan Bersin the superintendent renewed his contract for 4 years for 185k in mid 2002. Administration in the school system sure get it good, they sit on their behinds in their little offices driving their pricey cars (my last principle had a lexus, mercedes, and some other car i forgot). Why don't they take a price cut? We cut teachers jobs and what does my school do? Hire 3 administrative positions. Gimme a break, the school system is a joke.

The only reason I can think of the Super being so expensive is the cost of keeping him. In this day and age, no one in their right mind wants to be a Super, it's like signing up to be a fall guy. But what are you going to do, hire some guy at $50K, but knows nothing about how to be a Super? I'd love to see the price of a Super fall, but with the problems my old district had getting Supers and Principals, it seems like demand far exceeds supply.


fall guy? yea right, how hard is it to be a super? wanna know what bersin did today? He went around the city and met with all the kids and parents. oh and at one school he helped hand out ice cream. What a great PR scheme.
Think Gray Davis. A couple of years ago, our Super got reamed over some trivial issue he didn't have any control over(something related to building construction and the residents not passing a bond, I believe).
 

Viper GTS

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
38,107
433
136
Back when I was 14-15 I attended a local community college full time - Paid for by my local HS (100% tuition, 50% books).

Why?

The state gave the school something like $5K per year for me to be listed as attending the school, yet it only cost $2,500 a year to send me full time to the college. They pocketed the difference & everyone was happy.

They literally BEGGED me to let them pay for my schooling, even though I never set foot inside a classroom.

So, I got my AS at 15, funded by the state, & the HS got an additional $5K to spend on god knows what.

Pretty sad when you can get a college education for 1/2 what the state spends on a useless HS.

Viper GTS
 

TheBoyBlunder

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2003
5,742
1
0
Are you SURE they're spending 10k per sudent?! The most I've ever heard a public school spending per student was around $3k...