Sorry, I was commenting on their perceptions of the "perfectness" of H20 being the way it is. People are saying how it is amazing that water can act that way and that it just *happened* to be that way, but in reality, it HAS to be that way the same reason you think "RFG 197" is in any way significant (when it was actually a result of "chance").
Sorry, I was commenting on their perceptions of the "perfectness" of H20 being the way it is. People are saying how it is amazing that water can act that way and that it just *happened* to be that way, but in reality, it HAS to be that way the same reason you think "RFG 197" is in any way significant (when it was actually a result of "chance").
Oh. Well. You must admit though, (and before I say this I need to clarify that I AM athiest, so this is in no way skewed) that some properties of water seem to be too perfect or too coincidental to be mere luck.
Not so sure. Maybe it's the problem of us merer humans coprehending the odds.
How many combinations of the elements are there? How many star systems with planets are there? How many "unsuccessful" planet/atmosphere combinations are there?
The odds are huge - but so is the number of players.
I think luck could well be it.
Cheers,
Andy
There are a great number of things that work out well for us humans in this universe. Don't be confused into thinking the universe has been designed to suit us, rather we've evolved to our environment (which has water as an important part) so that we suit the universe we live in.
Douglass Adams said in a roundabout way:
Water flowed into a depression and formed a puddle. One morning the puddle awoke to the sun shining on it and thought, "gee what a wonderful world I live in, someone must have created it for me. How else is it that this basin that I'm sitting in is so perfectly formed to me." The puddle didn't worry about the sun shinning down since the sun must have been created for it specifically. The puddle was clinging to this belief down to the last moment when it finally evaporated in the heat.
Had the properties of water/ice been radically different there wouldn't be anyone here to wonder at how perfectly it all worked out for us!
I'm going to checkout that link about warm water freezing faster than cold - I could buy it in 'ideal condidtions' maybe.
Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Though he was wrong, your dumb coworker may have been more logically convinced of his opinion than you think. Think rate of change integrals. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but sometimes the head start does matter.Originally posted by: Smilin
Back when I was flippin' burgers at McDonalds for a living, this guy (who is stupid, btw) said that a thermos tank (the ones they put juice in and loan out) full of hot water would freeze faster than one with cold water, based on the common knowledge that hot water thrown in the air in winter will vaporize, while cold water won't. Anyways, I proved the jackass wrong, we filled them up and stuck them in the freezer, lo and behold the warm one stayed warmer the whole time.
Not only is science not in conflict with god, but science is proof of god... Just out of curiosity, are you a deist? I don't think that there was necessarily a Creator in the Judao-Christian human image sense but I think that since the universe follows logical patterns (also known as science), it stands to reason that there was some sort of logical influence on its origin (also known as god).
Hi,
The problems I see with that example are that being warmer isn't really a "head start" and a rate of change differential for an initially warmer system (I think you mean d (temp)/ d (time) ) will still come to the same state as an initially colder one, albeit over a longer time scale. When the temperature of the initially warmer body equals that of the initial temp of the initally colder system - then its temp derivative will be the same - and so in my mind it can never "catch up". I'm not saying that this situation - as already pointed out - under ideal conditions can come about for other reasons (ie thermal currents), but the logic you lay down doesn't exactly figure to me.
Wow! that's a big question Basically, as far as I can see, you can always label the unknown and/or necessary as God or Godlike. There had to have been a beginning (in some sense at least) to the universe, which we don't yet and possibly will never understand, so it could have been God. There is order in this universe that we only slightly understand, so it appears Godlike. This line of reasoning has never really moved on the debate for me.
Cheers,
Andy
The problems I see with that example are that being warmer isn't really a "head start" and a rate of change differential for an initially warmer system (I think you mean d (temp)/ d (time) ) will still come to the same state as an initially colder one, albeit over a longer time scale. When the temperature of the initially warmer body equals that of the initial temp of the initally colder system - then its temp derivative will be the same - and so in my mind it can never "catch up". I'm not saying that this situation - as already pointed out - under ideal conditions can come about for other reasons (ie thermal currents), but the logic you lay down doesn't exactly figure to me.
Wow! that's a big question
Basically, as far as I can see, you can always label the unknown and/or necessary as God or Godlike. There had to have been a beginning (in some sense at least) to the universe, which we don't yet and possibly will never understand, so it could have been God. There is order in this universe that we only slightly understand, so it appears Godlike. This line of reasoning has never really moved on the debate for me.Cheers,
Andy
I think he was saying, its cool that Cold sinks and Hot rises, and Cold Ice also rises therefore cooling down the Hot. And isnt that nice?
I think by hydrogen bonds, he was refering to the Hydrogen dipole-dipole attraction. Dipole-Dipole attractions are caused by Polar Covalent bonds. Hydrogens bonds is a special dipole-dipole bond. Source: General Chemistry 2nd Edition
This is my first post, so I don't want to go too far out on a limb here... but I figured I'd like to make a comment or two for you all to think about.
First, the fact that the universe follows some inherent set of "logic" is still distinctly anthropomorphic. We can't escape our humanity and because of that we are trapped by our own ability to perceive the universe. All we can do is build bigger and better machines that observe the universe in different ways for us.
Water's properties are only special because of the relative differences between the atomic properties of oxygen and hydrogen. This is what leads to the disparity of electron charge in the water molecule and the hybridization of the orbitals which gives it its "bent" shape. This asymmetry in turn leads to dipole "moments", or the momentary alignment of electrons in one water molecule relative to another. In water, unlike other non-polar liquids, the combined force of uncountable numbers of these "moments" are what lead to water's special properties.
But more on this topic. I think that life is special the way it is, not because of why water interracts with itself, but more along the lines of how water interracts with things that are...well...not water.
The single most important lesson I learned in chemistry is, "like associates with like, and not with unlike", and this statement forms the basis for all biochemistry at the practical level. Water is special because it associates with itself and not with non-polar, hydrophobic molecules. It also provides the most stable medium for life-oriented chemical reactions to take place. A less polar molecule wouldn't allow for the variety and complexity of life's chemical reactions to occur because there wouldn't be very much difference between the substrates and the medium. Can you imagine being made of 70% ether?
If you are interested, there's an excellent book out there called Life's Matrix: A Biography of Water by Philip Ball
First, the fact that the universe follows some inherent set of "logic" is still distinctly anthropomorphic. We can't escape our humanity and because of that we are trapped by our own ability to perceive the universe. All we can do is build bigger and better machines that observe the universe in different ways for us.
Water's properties are only special because of the relative differences between the atomic properties of oxygen and hydrogen. This is what leads to the disparity of electron charge in the water molecule and the hybridization of the orbitals which gives it its "bent" shape. This asymmetry in turn leads to dipole "moments", or the momentary alignment of electrons in one water molecule relative to another. In water, unlike other non-polar liquids, the combined force of uncountable numbers of these "moments" are what lead to water's special properties.
But more on this topic. I think that life is special the way it is, not because of why water interracts with itself, but more along the lines of how water interracts with things that are...well...not water.
The single most important lesson I learned in chemistry is, "like associates with like, and not with unlike", and this statement forms the basis for all biochemistry at the practical level. Water is special because it associates with itself and not with non-polar, hydrophobic molecules. It also provides the most stable medium for life-oriented chemical reactions to take place. A less polar molecule wouldn't allow for the variety and complexity of life's chemical reactions to occur because there wouldn't be very much difference between the substrates and the medium. Can you imagine being made of 70% ether?
If you are interested, there's an excellent book out there called Life's Matrix: A Biography of Water by Philip Ball
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