Why I think the AMD choice wins for some (if not most)...

[shamans]

Like many, I am going through the ritual of "damn, have to replace my 4 yr old setup".

I thought I'd share my analysis of why x2 3800+ (939 socket) is better than low end conroe for the common person on a budget who wants a new cpu/motherboard that is not bleeding edge, yet works great for the next few years.

Reasons:
1) Performance/Price.

No short term price inflation. Conroe chips cost more due to insane short term demand. (Valid for the next couple months atleast). I don't see x2 3800+ being super inflated at major online retailers. Additionally, they are in stock in most places.

Suppose we take the conroe prices from this page...
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2802
Clearly, this is the best case because actual prices are definitely higher than this out in the real world.

And suppose we take today's x2 3800+ price from newegg of $154

And we take motherboards that are capable of fully overclocking each chip:
asrock 939 dual sata2 (ddr) and gigabyte ds3 (ddr2). Prices are taken from newegg.

e6400 cpu + gigabyte ds3 costs $224 + $150 = $374
e6300 cpu + gigabyte ds3 costs $183 + $150 = $333
x2 3800 cpu + asrock 939 dual sata2 costs $154 + $67 = $221

Now, to be performance/price competitive. an e6400/ds3 combo would have to be atleast
374/221 = 1.69x faster ~ approx 1.7x faster
e6300/ds3 combo would have to be 333/221 = 1.5x faster

After all setups are overclocked on stock heatsink/fan (without any extra costs...or if u want, justify the extra cost), is the x2 3800+/asrock not more performance/price efficient? Show me proof.

I've read this recent article:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2802
Are the overclocks in this article too conservative? Let me know.

I assume that x2 3800+ can easily attain an overclock equivalent to the performance of a x2 4600+ on stock heatsink/fan. (If I'm wrong, somebody correct me).

2) The Unjustified expense of excess performance.

For most people, an overclocked e6300 or e6400 has performance that is often unutilized. Even an overclocked x2 3800+ will be mostly unutilized (to a lesser degree). When was the last time your cpu usage exceeded 5% more than 95% of the time? (for those utilization fanatics). When was the last time your cpu usage exceeded 95% more than 5% of the time? (for those response-time fanatics). Save the $100 to $150 difference today. Spend it in 2 years where that same money will be worth more. Better yet, let it grow. Only very few people will ever notice a performance difference between x2 3800+ and a low end conroe (until at a later date when applications are more demanding).

3) Upgrade paths.

Yes, if you buy conroe today, you have more upgrade choices in components. I point out that you saved $100 to $150 towards your next system, and that you can always sell your old system for something. Things always get cheaper and faster in the future. Always have been, no reason to think it'd stop yet.

Also, this asrock board in particular allows you to use your existing ddr memory (although I can't say there was any good ddr memory 4 yrs ago...) and your agp card (I spent way way too much on my used-to-be-state-of-the-art AIW radeon 9700 pro). Oh well, lesson learned.

Don't rely on "future upgrade paths" as nothing is certain. Instead, invest in an existing upgrade path (If you know what I mean...).

--------------

These ideas are also discussed in this thread but I thought I'd start a new one.
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=28&threadid=1902047&enterthread=y


Does anyone have better suggestions for a great cpu/motherboard setup on a similar budget ($200 - $400 for cpu/motherboard)? (with real prices and places to buy them from). I'd like to know, I'm buying one afterall.

Also, does anybody know what/where to buy fast and cheap ddr memory?

Newbie question: Are there any adverse effects to overclocking with 4 dimms instead of 2 dimms?

 

[RichUK]

yeah but the s939 Asrock boards sucks, because you cannot up the Vcore, and you would most definitely need to do so to get any sort of competitive OC with an X2 3800+.

Plus if you are solely looking at a budget platform basis with everything running stock, then there is also an Asrock mobo for Conroe which is dirt cheap

Asrock ConroeXFire-eSATA2 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard

This is half the price of the Gigabyte DS3

Asrock Conroe board (£61.04) + E6300 (135.07) = £196.11

Asrock 939Dual-SATA2 (£40.54) + (£108.04) = £148.58

With a price difference of £47.53 or better put the AMD setup being 32% cheaper. I would still say going with the Intel platform to be better, especially as you don?t have to focus much on Vcore, when OCing, so its still a good deal, and its a lot faster at stock speeds (if you're looking to run stock).

Unless you are ultra budget conscious then go with the AMD platform. But saying that these sorts of people buy the cheapest Dell?s.

 

[dasmokedog]

Somewhat valid points, BUT as we see you are updating a 4 year old puter. So Why not go with a rig (C2D) that is going to be Vista and well beyond capable? Why throw your money away on something that you will need to update in a year?

Not attacking just curious.

 

[harpoon84]

You made some valid points there, but I don't necessarily agree that X2 3800+ is the overall 'better value'. Sure' it's CHEAPER, but E6300 is much FASTER.

Keep in mind that that a platform consists of 3 main components: CPU, mobo and RAM. You didn't take RAM cost into consideration when doing the calculations, and that tends to skew the end results towards X2 3800+ somewhat. Let's just say most budget users will opt for 1GB of RAM. Let's say it costs around $100, just as a common price point for comparison.

It then becomes:
E6400 + DS3 + 1GB RAM = $474
E6300 + DS3 + 1GB RAM = $433
X2 3800 + Asrock 939S2 + 1GB RAM = $321

Now, the next step in the comparison is not 100% accurate because overclocking is obviously rather random.

DS3 mobos seem to be able to handle up to 500FSB OK, and it seems E6300/E6400 are hitting close to the FSB limit on most occasions. From what I've seen retail E6300s are overclocking very well, into the 3.3 - 3.5GHz regoin. I'm not too sure about E6400 results as it's less common but I'm sure it's around the 3.5GHz mark too.

With the X2 3800+, I'd say 2.8GHz is about average for most overclockers. That's on decent overclocking mobos like nForce4 based ones, and unfortunately the ULi based Asrock Dual939 SATA2 is no such board. It's an OK overclocker but it won't match nForce4 boards.

But let's be generous and assume the X2 3800+ gets to 2.8GHz anyway. And for comparisons sake let's assume the E6300 gets 500FSB 3.5GHz on the DS3 boards.

So the battle lines are drawn at E6300 @ 3.5GHz vs an X2 3800+ @ 2.8GHz.

It doesn't take an expert to see that the overclocked E6300 will far outperform the overclocked X2 3800+.

Clock for clock, Core2Duo is already 20% faster than X2. Add a 25% clockspeed advantage to the overclocked E6300 and things are getting ugly for the X2.

A 25% clockspeed increase doesn't equate to a 25% performance increase of course, so let's assume we get a 15% increase in general performance.

20% + 15% = 35% performance advantage for the E6300 platform, which is greater than the 25% price premium it commands over an X2 3800+ S939 platform.

Here is an article comparing an overclocked E6300 @ 2.94GHz demolishing an X2 3800+ @ 3GHz: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core2duo-e6300.html
The E6300 was not using a DS3 board and as such was FSB limited. It reached 2.94GHz on stock voltage and had a lot of untapped headroom. DS3 users will not encounter the same FSB limitations.

Conclusion: E6300 for the price/performance crown.

That said, it doesn't make the X2 3800+ a bad choice - some people just simply can't afford the extra $100 to stretch to an E6300, and that is fair enough. X2 3800+ still offers great value for money for budget buyers, and not everyone needs the bleeding edge performance Core2Duo provides.

PS. Anandtech's E6300/E6400 results are shocking. I don't know what they did wrong, but they are by far the worst overclocks I've seen. Visit www.xtremesystems.com forums to see what people are really getting with the retail samples.

 

[Blain]

Originally posted by: RichUK
yeah but the s939 Asrock boards sucks, because you cannot up the Vcore, and you would most definitely need to do so to get any sort of competitive OC with an X2 3800+.

Does core voltage need to be over 1.55v for a competitive OC?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Blain

Originally posted by: RichUK
yeah but the s939 Asrock boards sucks, because you cannot up the Vcore, and you would most definitely need to do so to get any sort of competitive OC with an X2 3800+.

Does core voltage need to be over 1.55v for a competitive OC?

Even if you could get 2.8-3.0GHz out of the 3800 on a known good board,which is common, a E6300 at 2.4-2.6 (conservative) on the "crappy?" ASRock would still well outperform it. Go any higher and the gap grows very quickly.

If you are serious about o/c'ing, that Gigabyte DS3 board looks to be the best you can get for its price of around 150 bucks. Pair that with a E6300, and 3GHz is pretty much given on stock voltage and air. I will insert the YMMV here of course.

The 3800 X2 would be strictly for the absolute budget minded user who is not interested in performance as much as price tags. Especially if building a new system. Enthusiasts on either side would go AM2 or Core 2 Duo. Budget minded folks would most likely go 939 or Pentium D. Would they be happy? I'm sure.

EDIT: My sister just asked me to build her a new PC. She mostly does encoding (wav's, mp3's) mixing and editing. Very light gaming if ever, and that's just Unreal Tournament (original). All for 502.00 shipped. This system is more than she needs:

Case.......................................40.00
GB Mobo GA81945GXME...........71.00
Leadtek GF6600/256.................66.00
Enermax 420W PSU..................60.00
Pentium D 805.........................101.00
1GB DDR2 667.........................72.00
Lite-On DVD burner..................35.00
SB Live 24-bit..........................26.00

Total.......................................471.00
Shipping...................................31.00

Grand Total.............................502.00

Needless to say, she will be very very happy. As will I for doing it for her.

 

[RichUK]

Originally posted by: Blain

Originally posted by: RichUK
yeah but the s939 Asrock boards sucks, because you cannot up the Vcore, and you would most definitely need to do so to get any sort of competitive OC with an X2 3800+.

Does core voltage need to be over 1.55v for a competitive OC?

But the board is only capable of offering an available max voltage of 1.45, even though the BIOS reads 1.55. Also the highest vdimm supported was 2.7. Which doesn?t cut the mustard.

A lot of people had to do volt mods to attain a better OC result due to higher voltage requirements. Which of cause is an option if you're into DIY.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: dasmokedog
Somewhat valid points, BUT as we see you are updating a 4 year old puter. So Why not go with a rig (C2D) that is going to be Vista and well beyond capable? Why throw your money away on something that you will need to update in a year?

Not attacking just curious.

The X2 processors are around a year-old, and there is no reason to expect they won't be Vista capable. Furthermore, they won't need to be updated a year from now either (especially when OC'd). I upgrade my computer every three years and have never had problems. Just because a processor isn't the best or doesn't have the best architecture doesn't suddenly mean that your computer is gonna start lagging.

 

[Pederv]

Blackllotus,
I was thinkin along those same lines. A month ago everybody was willing to pay 2 or 3 times what they currently pay for "out dated CPU's". You're right, the morning of July 27th, I didn't notice my computer running any slower.

Funny thing is this happens everytime a new technology comes out, people argue with you about how and what you need to upgrade.

 

[the Chase]

Also if you bring up the cost/benefits thing for most users out there, you have to look at say the 3200+ single core for $85. That saves an additional $70 and would be plenty for 90% of the people out there.(Maybe a little OC'ing for extra kick). So where do you draw the line on how much performance you really need?

 

[TheSlamma]

is this justification for yourself?

 

[Lord Banshee]

When i had my Asrock i was about to mod it (one wire solder) to get any V-Core i wanted... But that did not help much. Any FSB from 300+ would net me IDE problems. But other issues with board pissed me off too. I do not know but i would try and find a better board for comparsion. Also an upside for the AsRock, When i got the DFI instead of the AsRock the only main change was better overclocks, as the PCMark on both motherboard were about the same +/- 1%. But like i said the mobo had werid issues, like boot-up problems, AGP problems, IDE issues, probally some more i am forgetting.

 

[delsvr]

I'm with Blacklotus, for the most part. When it comes to clock speeds and even power consumption/efficiency, I don't see an urgent need to juice up your rig with a new processor, but when new technologies are introduced (64-bit, dual-core, DDR3 even), I see an upgrade to be much more urgent, especially if you're a developer.

I just recently decided to stick with my 775 945 mobo instead of making the jump to Conroe, upgrading from a 3.4 Pentium 4 to a 3.4 Pentium D. Saved a lot of money, gained the benefits of dual-core and sacrificed some extra speed that I probably won't need for a while.

For some people, pushing their clock speeds to the limit becomes a hobby, like fine-tuning a car. Our highways don't usually let us over 65 MPH, so why do people invest in engines and cars that can top 180? 200? 220? It's just fun. Even if you'll never max out that car on the road, you know that if you wanted to, you could.

 

[Ayah]

I run at 100% all the time on all my computers. Distributed computing FTW.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Pederv
Blackllotus,
I was thinkin along those same lines. A month ago everybody was willing to pay 2 or 3 times what they currently pay for "out dated CPU's". You're right, the morning of July 27th, I didn't notice my computer running any slower.

Funny thing is this happens everytime a new technology comes out, people argue with you about how and what you need to upgrade.

Agreed. If you're happy with what you have, and it does what you need it to do, then there is no need to do anything.

Then there are the other folks who are not so happy, and their PC's do not do what they need them to do. For them, there may well be a need for an upgrade.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Blain

Originally posted by: RichUK
yeah but the s939 Asrock boards sucks, because you cannot up the Vcore, and you would most definitely need to do so to get any sort of competitive OC with an X2 3800+.

Does core voltage need to be over 1.55v for a competitive OC?

Even if you could get 2.8-3.0GHz out of the 3800 on a known good board,which is common, a E6300 at 2.4-2.6 (conservative) on the "crappy?" ASRock would still well outperform it. Go any higher and the gap grows very quickly.

If you are serious about o/c'ing, that Gigabyte DS3 board looks to be the best you can get for its price of around 150 bucks. Pair that with a E6300, and 3GHz is pretty much given on stock voltage and air. I will insert the YMMV here of course.

The 3800 X2 would be strictly for the absolute budget minded user who is not interested in performance as much as price tags. Especially if building a new system. Enthusiasts on either side would go AM2 or Core 2 Duo. Budget minded folks would most likely go 939 or Pentium D. Would they be happy? I'm sure.

EDIT: My sister just asked me to build her a new PC. She mostly does encoding (wav's, mp3's) mixing and editing. Very light gaming if ever, and that's just Unreal Tournament (original). All for 502.00 shipped. This system is more than she needs:

Case.......................................40.00
GB Mobo GA81945GXME...........71.00
Leadtek GF6600/256.................66.00
Enermax 420W PSU..................60.00
Pentium D 805.........................101.00
1GB DDR2 667.........................72.00
Lite-On DVD burner..................35.00
SB Live 24-bit..........................26.00

Total.......................................471.00
Shipping...................................31.00

Grand Total.............................502.00

Needless to say, she will be very very happy. As will I for doing it for her.

You talk about the X2 3800, but then build your sister an 805 POS ? For $50 more, she could have had an X2 3800, which runs much cooler than that 805, not to mention faster, and a better buy. You are just an Intel fanboy, admit it.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Markfw900

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Blain

Originally posted by: RichUK
yeah but the s939 Asrock boards sucks, because you cannot up the Vcore, and you would most definitely need to do so to get any sort of competitive OC with an X2 3800+.

Does core voltage need to be over 1.55v for a competitive OC?

Even if you could get 2.8-3.0GHz out of the 3800 on a known good board,which is common, a E6300 at 2.4-2.6 (conservative) on the "crappy?" ASRock would still well outperform it. Go any higher and the gap grows very quickly.

If you are serious about o/c'ing, that Gigabyte DS3 board looks to be the best you can get for its price of around 150 bucks. Pair that with a E6300, and 3GHz is pretty much given on stock voltage and air. I will insert the YMMV here of course.

The 3800 X2 would be strictly for the absolute budget minded user who is not interested in performance as much as price tags. Especially if building a new system. Enthusiasts on either side would go AM2 or Core 2 Duo. Budget minded folks would most likely go 939 or Pentium D. Would they be happy? I'm sure.

EDIT: My sister just asked me to build her a new PC. She mostly does encoding (wav's, mp3's) mixing and editing. Very light gaming if ever, and that's just Unreal Tournament (original). All for 502.00 shipped. This system is more than she needs:

Case.......................................40.00
GB Mobo GA81945GXME...........71.00
Leadtek GF6600/256.................66.00
Enermax 420W PSU..................60.00
Pentium D 805.........................101.00
1GB DDR2 667.........................72.00
Lite-On DVD burner..................35.00
SB Live 24-bit..........................26.00

Total.......................................471.00
Shipping...................................31.00

Grand Total.............................502.00

Needless to say, she will be very very happy. As will I for doing it for her.

You talk about the X2 3800, but then build your sister an 805 POS ? For $50 more, she could have had an X2 3800, which runs much cooler than that 805, not to mention faster, and a better buy. You are just an Intel fanboy, admit it.

This conversation was going nicely until your nastiness got the better of you. What part of ,"This system is way more than she will ever need." Did you not understand? Why spend more money when it was not necessary? 50 bucks is FIFTY bucks no matter how it's shown. If I spent an extra 50 on the CPU, I wouldn't have been able to get her the semi-decent graphics card. Why am I explaining this to you. You're a waste of keystrokes. There are a ton of things I'd like to say to you Mark as a result of your post here, but I would be ULTRA banned if I had. You get the drift.

 

[delsvr]

That aside... is a 420W PSU necessary? I would've saved around $70 by getting a case w/ a budget PSU.

Namely, the Rosewill RY662: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811147034.

Suggestion comes from having just recently been looking at possible budget builds.

 

[shamans]

Hmm, okay, I have several points to make

@dasmokedog

The way I am looking at this is not 'what can I get now and I"ll never get a new system again' point of view. If you talk about future performance then going with the cheaper upgrade path will allow you to upgrade more often. So suppose that over a long period of time we spend the same amount of money. If I go with x2 3800+ route then I save $100 today. That $100 will be put towards a future system with a higher price/performance than today's conroe system. Can I claim that in 2 years time that dollar for dollar I can buy more performance than I could with the low end conroe setup? Easily if you think that cpu power doubles every 2 years while prices remain the same (if not lower).

Why would you buy extra cpu power you don't need today, when tomorrow it will be cheaper. Why not save it for the future when your dollar will go further?

(btw, a conservatively overclocked x2 3800+ will last me atleast 2 years).

-------

@harpoon84

Yeah, I didn't really take into account other parts you need to run a computer
memory, psu, etc.

Now, most of them are probably reusable (memory being unlikely when reusing 4 yr. old components) and in my case everything is reusable (the reason I ignored it stupidly/blindly) - I bought new memory last year since my old 512 mb ....yes that's 5-1-2 mb was way too low.

But...yeah...I call upon the power of inflated conroe prices ;P to even things out a bit. (Maybe this won't be true in a couple months).

Also, isn't fast DDR ram easier/cheapier to find than fast DDR2 ram? (DDR 500 vs DDR2 1060)

But yeah, you caught me with my pants down ;( I forgot that some components are not easily reusable (or would want to be reusable) by other people.

As for overclocking capability...I don't want to spend extra money to be able to get the most overclock out of these systems. Reason being, I think the extra performance increase isn't worth the extra cost in better cooling, etc. And it's far easier to get conservative overclocks. Could you say that the majority of people can get E6300 @ 3.5GHz and X2 3800+ @ 2.8GHz without extra cost in cooling, etc.? I honestly would like to know what overclocks I could expect from stock amd/intel heatsink/fan.

---------------

@the Chase

Yeah, you're right about this. It's hard to draw the line. ;( I could do a price and performance analysis and see if it's worth it, lol. Going even cheaper would allow you to upgrade more often and let you hand off the old hardware to family. In my case, I definitely need more than 3200+ in processing power (software development + video editing). And a jump from 3200+ to x2 3800+ is important for me whereas a jump from x2 3800+ to e6400 may not be as important. It's sort of a "diminishing returns" thing.

Like, suppose x2 3800+ is 2x as fast as 3200+.
And suppose e6400 is 2x as fast as x2 3800+.

If something takes 8 seconds to do in 3200+, then it would take x2 3800+ 4 seconds. And e6400 2 seconds.

Now, I save 4 seconds between 3200+ and x2 3800+ (If I actually waited for it) and 2 seconds between x2 3800+ and e6400.

So, at this point of time, for me, I will utilize the processor enough such that the extra time between 3200+ and x2 3800+ constitutes as great value for the x2 3800+. But the same may not be true with x2 3800+ and e6400 until a later date when I utilize enough on-demand processing power wherein the time difference between them is substantial. At this later date, I can then upgrade to something better. But, until at this later date, there is little justification (for me) to get that much processing power when I can get better price/performance in 2 years time. My saved dollars will go further then with little lost in value.

You're right in that 90% of people just surf the web, etc. etc. In fact, my old athlon xp 1800+ is perfect for that. And yeah, they don't need anything incredible at all until some great yet bloated (or naturally intensive) application comes by (visual studio .net for me). You'd be surprised how much processing power just using your IDE takes up...it looks pretty though.

---------------

@TheSlamma

yes. lol. I also like to think...and think...and think. oh, and share what i'm thinking.


---------------

@Lord Banshee

Yeah, I hope I don't get the same issues you do, especially if there's newer bios since then.

---------------

@Ayah

They need some sort of paid distributed computing. Didn't somebody try this before....

---------------

@Markfw900

Agree with you here on the PD 805. I thought about buying it too, but realized that it's very hard to overclock to the extremes other people have. That and it's a double whammy on my electric bill - computer + airconditioning. It easily destroys the savings it introduces. I'm thinking probably atleast $30 over its lifetime. And some people these days never turn off their comp when they leave it ;(. Makes me cringe.

---------------

Thanks for all your thoughts everyone.

Found a great article on (4 x 512 mb dimms VS. 2 x 1 gig dimms) - silly me.
http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2676




----------------

 

[harpoon84]

Originally posted by: shamans
@harpoon84

Yeah, I didn't really take into account other parts you need to run a computer
memory, psu, etc.

Now, most of them are probably reusable (memory being unlikely when reusing 4 yr. old components) and in my case everything is reusable (the reason I ignored it stupidly/blindly) - I bought new memory last year since my old 512 mb ....yes that's 5-1-2 mb was way too low.

But...yeah...I call upon the power of inflated conroe prices ;P to even things out a bit. (Maybe this won't be true in a couple months).

Also, isn't fast DDR ram easier/cheapier to find than fast DDR2 ram? (DDR 500 vs DDR2 1060)

But yeah, you caught me with my pants down ;( I forgot that some components are not easily reusable (or would want to be reusable) by other people.

As for overclocking capability...I don't want to spend extra money to be able to get the most overclock out of these systems. Reason being, I think the extra performance increase isn't worth the extra cost in better cooling, etc. And it's far easier to get conservative overclocks. Could you say that the majority of people can get E6300 @ 3.5GHz and X2 3800+ @ 2.8GHz without extra cost in cooling, etc.? I honestly would like to know what overclocks I could expect from stock amd/intel heatsink/fan.

DDR2 RAM is very common, and the high performance stuff is comparable to high performance DDR1 in price so it really doesn't make much difference at the end of the day.

Overclocking wise, obviously those kind of overclocks I mentioned are with higher end air cooling. With stock cooling you're looking at perhaps 100 - 200MHz below those levels. Not a huge difference, mind you.

Keep in mind that overclockers don't just get better HSFs to get higher overclocks, they also get it to keep the CPU cooler. Stock HSFs are just that - they are designed for stock speeds. Sure, you will get away with moderate overclocking, but go higher and you will find the temps uncomfortably high, which isn't good for long term use.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: delsvr
That aside... is a 420W PSU necessary? I would've saved around $70 by getting a case w/ a budget PSU.

Namely, the Rosewill RY662: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811147034.

Suggestion comes from having just recently been looking at possible budget builds.

Never, ever skimp on a PSU. Didn't mention it, but she will have 3 to 4 hard drives in it. Depends on what she needs room for.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: shamans
Hmm, okay, I have several points to make

@dasmokedog

The way I am looking at this is not 'what can I get now and I"ll never get a new system again' point of view. If you talk about future performance then going with the cheaper upgrade path will allow you to upgrade more often. So suppose that over a long period of time we spend the same amount of money. If I go with x2 3800+ route then I save $100 today. That $100 will be put towards a future system with a higher price/performance than today's conroe system. Can I claim that in 2 years time that dollar for dollar I can buy more performance than I could with the low end conroe setup? Easily if you think that cpu power doubles every 2 years while prices remain the same (if not lower).

Why would you buy extra cpu power you don't need today, when tomorrow it will be cheaper. Why not save it for the future when your dollar will go further?

(btw, a conservatively overclocked x2 3800+ will last me atleast 2 years).

-------

@harpoon84

Yeah, I didn't really take into account other parts you need to run a computer
memory, psu, etc.

Now, most of them are probably reusable (memory being unlikely when reusing 4 yr. old components) and in my case everything is reusable (the reason I ignored it stupidly/blindly) - I bought new memory last year since my old 512 mb ....yes that's 5-1-2 mb was way too low.

But...yeah...I call upon the power of inflated conroe prices ;P to even things out a bit. (Maybe this won't be true in a couple months).

Also, isn't fast DDR ram easier/cheapier to find than fast DDR2 ram? (DDR 500 vs DDR2 1060)

But yeah, you caught me with my pants down ;( I forgot that some components are not easily reusable (or would want to be reusable) by other people.

As for overclocking capability...I don't want to spend extra money to be able to get the most overclock out of these systems. Reason being, I think the extra performance increase isn't worth the extra cost in better cooling, etc. And it's far easier to get conservative overclocks. Could you say that the majority of people can get E6300 @ 3.5GHz and X2 3800+ @ 2.8GHz without extra cost in cooling, etc.? I honestly would like to know what overclocks I could expect from stock amd/intel heatsink/fan.

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@the Chase

Yeah, you're right about this. It's hard to draw the line. ;( I could do a price and performance analysis and see if it's worth it, lol. Going even cheaper would allow you to upgrade more often and let you hand off the old hardware to family. In my case, I definitely need more than 3200+ in processing power (software development + video editing). And a jump from 3200+ to x2 3800+ is important for me whereas a jump from x2 3800+ to e6400 may not be as important. It's sort of a "diminishing returns" thing.

Like, suppose x2 3800+ is 2x as fast as 3200+.
And suppose e6400 is 2x as fast as x2 3800+.

If something takes 8 seconds to do in 3200+, then it would take x2 3800+ 4 seconds. And e6400 2 seconds.

Now, I save 4 seconds between 3200+ and x2 3800+ (If I actually waited for it) and 2 seconds between x2 3800+ and e6400.

So, at this point of time, for me, I will utilize the processor enough such that the extra time between 3200+ and x2 3800+ constitutes as great value for the x2 3800+. But the same may not be true with x2 3800+ and e6400 until a later date when I utilize enough on-demand processing power wherein the time difference between them is substantial. At this later date, I can then upgrade to something better. But, until at this later date, there is little justification (for me) to get that much processing power when I can get better price/performance in 2 years time. My saved dollars will go further then with little lost in value.

You're right in that 90% of people just surf the web, etc. etc. In fact, my old athlon xp 1800+ is perfect for that. And yeah, they don't need anything incredible at all until some great yet bloated (or naturally intensive) application comes by (visual studio .net for me). You'd be surprised how much processing power just using your IDE takes up...it looks pretty though.

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@TheSlamma

yes. lol. I also like to think...and think...and think. oh, and share what i'm thinking.


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@Lord Banshee

Yeah, I hope I don't get the same issues you do, especially if there's newer bios since then.

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@Ayah

They need some sort of paid distributed computing. Didn't somebody try this before....

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@Markfw900

Agree with you here on the PD 805. I thought about buying it too, but realized that it's very hard to overclock to the extremes other people have. That and it's a double whammy on my electric bill - computer + airconditioning. It easily destroys the savings it introduces. I'm thinking probably atleast $30 over its lifetime. And some people these days never turn off their comp when they leave it ;(. Makes me cringe.

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Thanks for all your thoughts everyone.

Found a great article on (4 x 512 mb dimms VS. 2 x 1 gig dimms) - silly me.
http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2676




----------------

How about giving us a break with the electric bill A/C thing. How many years will it take a PD805 to use 50.00 more electricity than a X2 3800? Besides, she did not have anymore money budgeted for this PC. If you're buying a farm of servers, THEN you will notice the whammy on the o'l ConEd bill for extra A/C and power usage. But not one little chip folks. Blown out of proportion yet again. Or at least in the wrong direction.

 

[fixxxer0]

I am going 939 strictly because I already have every other compatible component and the investment for me is $160 to my door for a dual core.

I am still running my old 3500 winchester into the ground here in desperate need for dual core. I think there are many people in a similar situation as myself and AMD shouldn't have a problem getting rid of any of the 939 chips at this very attractive price.

The 3800x2 is a cheap way out until Vista and DX10 hardware come out, which is when I plan to do a major upgrade (most likely to C2D).

 

[shamans]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
How about giving us a break with the electric bill A/C thing. How many years will it take a PD805 to use 50.00 more electricity than a X2 3800? Besides, she did not have anymore money budgeted for this PC. If you're buying a farm of servers, THEN you will notice the whammy on the o'l ConEd bill for extra A/C and power usage. But not one little chip folks. Blown out of proportion yet again. Or at least in the wrong direction.

It really depends on where you live and how much you use. Up here in Ontario, Canada, energy prices are so cheap due to hydro electricity (we get about 6 cents per kWh).

40 W difference x 6 cents per kWh x 4 hours a day on average x 365 days a year x 4 years is $14.

If your computer is left on 8 hours a day on average, double that to $28 over 4 years.

If you have to overclock your PD805 to reach the the performance of a x2 3800+, add more power = higher cost. (Same with x2 3800+ of course).

see http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/cost.html for average electricity prices in US by state.
california is 12 cents average, New York is 14 cents average. Average price in US is approx 10 cents.

Soo...on average, without overclocking, in US it will cost an additional.....$23 over 4 years when it's on 4 hours/day not including airconditioning.

So yes, I think it matters, depending on your situation.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: shamans

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
How about giving us a break with the electric bill A/C thing. How many years will it take a PD805 to use 50.00 more electricity than a X2 3800? Besides, she did not have anymore money budgeted for this PC. If you're buying a farm of servers, THEN you will notice the whammy on the o'l ConEd bill for extra A/C and power usage. But not one little chip folks. Blown out of proportion yet again. Or at least in the wrong direction.

It really depends on where you live and how much you use. Up here in Ontario, Canada, energy prices are so cheap due to hydro electricity (we get about 6 cents per kWh).

40 W difference x 6 cents per kWh x 4 hours a day on average x 365 days a year x 4 years is $14.

If your computer is left on 8 hours a day on average, double that to $28 over 4 years.

If you have to overclock your PD805 to reach the the performance of a x2 3800+, add more power = higher cost. (Same with x2 3800+ of course).

see http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/cost.html for average electricity prices in US by state.
california is 12 cents average, New York is 14 cents average. Average price in US is approx 10 cents.

Soo...on average, without overclocking, in US it will cost an additional.....$23 over 4 years when it's on 4 hours/day not including airconditioning.

So yes, I think it matters, depending on your situation.

And if you live in a warm climate, the AC cost with more than double that. But keys is an Intel fanboy, so he will defend anything he buys.....