Why I love Neil de Grasse Tyson. Interviewed by Ben Shapiro

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,909
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Thank you for so clearly proving my point. Having to relocate NYC would be one of the largest economic calamities in human history. We CAN survive these calamities, but they are world changing disasters.

My point was not that it is physically impossible to build a new city somewhere, it is that the conservative position that this is the answer is absolutely world class stupidity. It’s hard to imagine anyone being that dumb.
I think you are talking past each other based on different assumptions. Your thinking is directed at preventing climate change from creating massive coastal catastrophe and a monumental disaster to civilization. Greenman is looking at how we will manage the crisis because, unlike you, he believes it is already too late to prevent it, that we will not make the changes required to prevent what we are already well into experiencing. I would suggest that rather than calling him dumb for describing what he thinks will happen if we are indeed already fucked, because if we are we will absent extinction some how manage to carry on, that you argue the idea that it may in fact not be too late and that whatever it takes to prevent an epic man made climate disaster will be far far better than if we do nothing.

I saw an article somewhere that MIT has found an answer which I did not yet read and I am confident science can produce and already knows ways to both prevent and mitigate a pending 200 foot sea level rise. But as with everything, those who know how to solve problems have to sell them to those who haven't a clue because they do not have expertise in the requisite scientific fields.

Vic posted a video that suggests why conservatives and liberals talk past each other. My readings on scientific studies of liberal conservative differences suggest what I think are similar implications, but with the differences between liberals and conservatives far from black and white but by statistically apparent degree. The common factor relates to the brain scans of self-confessed liberals and conservatives that reveal differences in size of parts of the brain related to the emotional response of fear and the part of the brain that suppresses fear interfering with rational thinking. Enough fear and liberals start acting like conservatives.

These studies point to the ego, the sense of self interest, self security and self needs that in conservatives are more likely than in liberals to threaten positive notions of ones self free of fear. Conservatives react more strongly to ideas thoughts and experiences that threaten their state of ego well being, rationalizing away more than liberals generally do anything that threatens that state. The disaster that climate change represents would certainly be one of them.

Now all of that is well and good in terms of what we can see about liberals and conservatives talking past each other, but what do we really know about fear. What is it that we actually fear. That, I believe, is the question that never gets seriously asked because the only way to really know what you fear is to go through that fear and experience it. I suggest that has been done by some and the answer is that what we fear is to remember when we learned to fear, the experience of having been made to feel worthless and unworthy of love, of having experience the violence of physical punishment and verbal rejection via put-downs.

It is a world class hobby of people to separate into groups for herd safety, projecting that self hate out there onto others and seeing in them the threat they will somehow or another get back at you for your hatred of them by hating and punishing you.

Personally, I believe that not only do we possess the scientific know how to save ourselves from the ultimate climate disaster headed our way but that also we could, with the right self understanding, begin a long journey to better mental health. Guess which problem will provoke greater fear for the ego.
 

uallas5

Golden Member
Jun 3, 2005
1,677
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This is your Brain:
1658086567557.png




This is your brain on the drug known as rabid conservatism:

1658086589258.png
 
Mar 11, 2004
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And instead of having them all go underwater you could…

I don’t understand why you’re playing this stupid game.

At this point the stupid is purely on you. Its been clear from literally his first post in here, and yet here you are years later still getting whipped into stupid circles playing his stupid games.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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At this point the stupid is purely on you. Its been clear from literally his first post in here, and yet here you are years later still getting whipped into stupid circles playing his stupid games.
You realize you’ve told this to me before and I ignored it, right?

I’m well aware of your thoughts on this subject, it’s just that your thoughts on this are dumb.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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At this point the stupid is purely on you. Its been clear from literally his first post in here, and yet here you are years later still getting whipped into stupid circles playing his stupid games.
What chance do we have? Compared to you most of us are just idiots picking fleas and lice out of each other's hair. But thank you for coming by occasionally with your sage pronouncements. The evidence you supply for their cogency is, well, Biblical.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
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We're not past the point of no return on climate change. Conservatives are taking up that argument as a dishonest excuse to continue doing nothing about the issue. It's the new denialism, now with nihilism.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,853
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The "point of no return" isn't even the worst case scenario. People seem to think we can just reach that point and everything after is just a different Normal. That is not how this works. It just means we can never restore things back to what they once were, ecologically speaking. Some of us are at risk of dying in a famine, especially younger members.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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The "point of no return" isn't even the worst case scenario. People seem to think we can just reach that point and everything after is just a different Normal. That is not how this works. It just means we can never restore things back to what they once were, ecologically speaking. Some of us are at risk of dying in a famine, especially younger members.
But that's just the kind of information that people who have been conditioned to worry about moral purity would find hard to face? What me responsible for the deaths of future people and some that may be alive today. I don't know that I want to be that person, if you know what I mean. Please please don't lay a guilt trip on me. Please just let me stay asleep.
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
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2 groups know how much global warming is a fact and is here now.

insurance actuaries
The military
Actually, insurance hasn't quite caught up to the risks (especially the NFIP), which is what makes the "Obama bought a beach house" talking point that much more stupid. If you're wealthy, savvy, and accept climate change, then a fully-insured beach house is actually a very smart financial decision right now. You literally cannot lose.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Tyson was respectful and measured as always. While Shapiro still believes that murdering non-combatant civilians is an acceptable form of warfare, and that such warfare is desirable. One is a genuinely noble human being, and the other is someone who wants to violently force his nobility on others, particularly those who might speak out against his ignobility.
Yaknow, it's hard to take seriously an illiberal aristocratic academic elitist who tries to change his external reality by preaching to other people that they shouldn't try to change their external realities until they've fixed themselves internally.. and then almost kills himself from anti-anxiety medication overdose. We're all imperfect. I get that, and am not judging. I'm just adverse to hypocrisy. Especially the kind of hypocrisy that is cynically crafted to oppress and otherwise keep people down.
The most powerful and influential people in this world have never waited until they were cured before to create change in the world around them. Not even Jordan Peterson. And I am confident he knows good and goddamned well what a hypocrite for pushing that BS.
I did not see the claim of the first quote in Shapiro in your first quote nor the last about Peterson in your second. My intention is saying so is to inform you that if you can see those points from that dialog between them from within that dialog I can't. That you are right about each of them solely from what was said in those links or based on additional observations and conclusions you have made may be right but to the level I can see I did not see in those conversations what you say about them. My points of view given here are only based on what I see in what was said between them in the material provided and only to the level I can see it.

The bias that I brought into the conversation was that this is not the first time I have experienced this. I get a very strong sense that if I do not cow tow to the prevailing winds of opinion as to the demonic nature of these two people but actually look when presented by their words on the occasions when I hear them, that ipso facto I am some sort of monster too. I may not have much judgment but it's the only judgement I've got so it means nothing to me when people say I am wrong but won't engage in a conversation that goes you are wrong because we say so. What I have done so far is wound up saying that saying something doesn't make it true to gales of ridicule as an illogical proposition or so it seems to me.

What I try to do is say what I see avoiding concern for effect or praise or condemnation for agreement or not.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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People don’t really care about Trump’s hubris. That part of him is a joke. He gets criticism because he is a racist asshole. An incompetent one.

I am not sure I agree. It seems to me that because of Trumps hubris regarding his racism has done wonders to make it popular again.

Peterson wants to be the arbitrator of how people want to be referred. Same argument could be made when black people no longer wanted to be called Negro

I think he more objects to universities firing people who will not yield to demands of others grammar Nazis as to what words they will not accept. There is a big difference I think between trying to treat people with the words they want to be called than saying you lose your job if you don't yield. I think the debate is something along these lines rather than those you propose.

I’ll tell you a personal story that I think sums this up. 25 years ago after a softball game having a few beers I referred to a cute Asian girl as oriental. She looked at me calmly and said, “I’m a person not a rug”. I never made that faux pas again and took no offense. I was thinking of asking her out before that. Ejected that idea.

Jordan Peterson fancies himself as the smartest guy in the room. Isn’t that the height of prideful?
[/QUOTE]

I have no way of knowing if Peterson fancies himself the smartest guy in the room so this carries no weight with me. This is an example of what I refer to as making statements without any proof. It is a feeling you have. It is not one I want to share just because you say it. He could also often be the smartest person in a room because he is likely rather intelligent being a respected professor and all. I suspect he is smarter than me, but I try to hear what he has to say as best as I can. How smart he is doesn't help me to do that. The best I can do is try to listen and evaluate on that basis. I can only hear what I hear not what you hear and tell you that I don't hear what you do.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,824
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I am not sure I agree. It seems to me that because of Trumps hubris regarding his racism has done wonders to make it popular again.



I think he more objects to universities firing people who will not yield to demands of others grammar Nazis as to what words they will not accept. There is a big difference I think between trying to treat people with the words they want to be called than saying you lose your job if you don't yield. I think the debate is something along these lines rather than those you propose.

I’ll tell you a personal story that I think sums this up. 25 years ago after a softball game having a few beers I referred to a cute Asian girl as oriental. She looked at me calmly and said, “I’m a person not a rug”. I never made that faux pas again and took no offense. I was thinking of asking her out before that. Ejected that idea.

Jordan Peterson fancies himself as the smartest guy in the room. Isn’t that the height of prideful?

I have no way of knowing if Peterson fancies himself the smartest guy in the room so this carries no weight with me. This is an example of what I refer to as making statements without any proof. It is a feeling you have. It is not one I want to share just because you say it. He could also often be the smartest person in a room because he is likely rather intelligent being a respected professor and all. I suspect he is smarter than me, but I try to hear what he has to say as best as I can. How smart he is doesn't help me to do that. The best I can do is try to listen and evaluate on that basis. I can only hear what I hear not what you hear and tell you that I don't hear what you do.[/QUOTE]

I’m surprised you would conflate his hubris with his racism or the former is an explanation of the latter.

His hubris are things like…

I do the biggest
I do the best
Only I can fix it


His racism…
African countries are shitholes
All immigrants from Haiti have AIDS
Muslim ban
A judge is incapable of doing his job because he is Mexican
Central Park 5 after being exonerated Trump still insists they are guilty

Thinking you are the best at everything is not an explanation for racism
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Thinking you are the best at everything is not an explanation for racism
In my opinion to think and to help to promote and make popular stupidity such as the following requires enormous hubris not to be able to note their utter stupidity:

African countries are shitholes
All immigrants from Haiti have AIDS
Muslim ban
A judge is incapable of doing his job because he is Mexican
Central Park 5 after being exonerated Trump still insists they are guilty

I am interested in what makes it possible for people to act out is self destructive ways. The answer I believe is that they do not want to know just how inferior they truly feel themselves to be and will rather die that face that fact. That is what I call hubris, having an ego so needy of worship from others you gladly act out Stockholm Syndrome. It's the Wizard of Oz and the magic curtain behind which he hides.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
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Shapiro, Peterson and their ilk are intellectual charlatans. They like to create the air of intellectual superiority, but you only need to dig slightly below the surface to realize that they're disguising old, horrible ideas with clever language.

Shapiro has very regressive views about sexuality and politics (he opposes same-sex marriage, for instance), but uses his fast, smug tone to make it seem as if he's enlightened. Peterson is a misogynist who thinks modern men are too "feminine," and that the male and female genders are inherently associated with order and chaos — but because he couches his sexism in complicated language and preys on the fragility of straight white men, many people swallow it up.

In some ways, they epitomize what's wrong with modern debate. People seem to prefer the superficial aura of intelligence to rigorously constructed ideas. Sound thinking is based on evidence and logic, not religious tradition and archetypes; it revolves around nuanced stances, not broad and simplistic assumptions. That's part of why I appreciate Tyson — he's one of the few who'll refuse to bow to charlatans like Shapiro and insists on presenting the complex reality.
 
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Mar 11, 2004
23,444
5,852
146
Shapiro, Peterson and their ilk are intellectual charlatans. They like to create the air of intellectual superiority, but you only need to dig slightly below the surface to realize that they're disguising old, horrible ideas with clever language.

Shapiro has very regressive views about sexuality and politics (he opposes same-sex marriage, for instance), but uses his fast, smug tone to make it seem as if he's enlightened. Peterson is a misogynist who thinks modern men are too "feminine," and that the male and female genders are inherently associated with order and chaos — but because he couches his sexism in complicated language and preys on the fragility of straight white men, many people swallow it up.

In some ways, they epitomize what's wrong with modern debate. People seem to prefer the superficial aura of intelligence to rigorously constructed ideas. Sound thinking is based on evidence and logic, not religious tradition and archetypes; it revolves around nuanced stances, not broad and simplistic assumptions. That's part of why I appreciate Tyson — he's one of the few who'll refuse to bow to charlatans like Shapiro and insists on presenting the complex reality.

I wouldn't even say they're disguising anything. They both regularly just straight up say horrible shit that proves what despicable scum they actually are.

Shapiro seems to pretty easily be knocked off course. I recall the video of him on some British thing and when the old white dude in calm voice shot down his first bs claim and wouldn't let him get away with just continuing he had a fucking meltdown and stormed off like the pathetic little crybaby bitch he is. All you have to do is throw these nitwits off their script and they have nothing. All the "debates" I've seen they just keep repeating bullshit over and over and pretend that makes them right when it just shows the shallowness of their argument and inability to actually argue anything in good faith. They pretty much ignore the actual arguments that others provide and try to proselytize their own talking points.

Shapiro is just basically a pubescent boy who hasn't been able to advance and because of that he's stuck in the fucked up head, which is why we get him screaming about women being overly sexual, not knowing anything about vaginas, and then perving on his sister.

Peterson isn't much more evolved. Plus he seems like someone hell bent on self destruction and I'm gonna guess he's gonna end up being just another right wing asswipe that flames out because he can't even handle the bullshit he spews, so he'll get back on drugs or drink himself to oblivion.

There's no reason either of these asswipes should get even the middling amount of publicity they do and I have no clue why the people on here seem obsessed with both. Even ignoring Moonbeam's lust for Peterson, the rest of you mention that clown more than it warrants. And you're even worse about Shapiro.

 
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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,477
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Actually, insurance hasn't quite caught up to the risks (especially the NFIP), which is what makes the "Obama bought a beach house" talking point that much more stupid. If you're wealthy, savvy, and accept climate change, then a fully-insured beach house is actually a very smart financial decision right now. You literally cannot lose.
It like the lake around the corner from me. Sign goes up, week later it's gone.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
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I wouldn't even say they're disguising anything. They both regularly just straight up say horrible shit that proves what despicable scum they actually are.

Shapiro seems to pretty easily be knocked off course. I recall the video of him on some British thing and when the old white dude in calm voice shot down his first bs claim and wouldn't let him get away with just continuing he had a fucking meltdown and stormed off like the pathetic little crybaby bitch he is. All you have to do is throw these nitwits off their script and they have nothing. All the "debates" I've seen they just keep repeating bullshit over and over and pretend that makes them right when it just shows the shallowness of their argument and inability to actually argue anything in good faith. They pretty much ignore the actual arguments that others provide and try to proselytize their own talking points.

Shapiro is just basically a pubescent boy who hasn't been able to advance and because of that he's stuck in the fucked up head, which is why we get him screaming about women being overly sexual, not knowing anything about vaginas, and then perving on his sister.

Peterson isn't much more evolved. Plus he seems like someone hell bent on self destruction and I'm gonna guess he's gonna end up being just another right wing asswipe that flames out because he can't even handle the bullshit he spews, so he'll get back on drugs or drink himself to oblivion.

There's no reason either of these asswipes should get even the middling amount of publicity they do and I have no clue why the people on here seem obsessed with both. Even ignoring Moonbeam's lust for Peterson, the rest of you mention that clown more than it warrants. And you're even worse about Shapiro.


I won't really disagree that they're sometimes naked about their views; it's just that the people who support them often cite what they think is a sophisticated opinion. Fans are either fooled by the gloss or aren't aware of the full scope of Peterson or Shapiro's views.

Me, I'm concerned with them because they unfortunately have an outsized influence and can arguably be linked to trends in thinking among younger conservatives — the ones who whine about "cancel culture" and twist themselves into pretzels trying to claim they're not sexist while embracing sexism.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Right? Poser vs. The Real Deal. Quite revealing.
Had Fry and Peterson exchanged minds before the interview and said the same words that were said you also would have seen Fry's words as the Poser and Peterson's the real deal and for a very simple reason. You see what you believe you will see. As I have said many times we don't believe what we see, we see what we believe.

But if you want to stop pretending to think you know something about who has the truth and who simply pretends make a real argument for your case instead of your endless magical pronouncements. We can start with something that Peterson said that indicates he was a poser. In the process you can define what a poser is and how that equates to the words you see as posing. I won't hold my breath. I am pretty sure you have no idea just how clueless you are in your pronouncements. and your bigoted belief they mirror the truth. What they really say is that you are as blind as a bigot. But I thank you for posting the conversation. A lot of really interesting things were said. Too bad you were unable to listen.