Why I am skeptical about Warhammer

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
I don't think WAR fits in with the PVP elite attitude that other games have. I have played over 125 hours of WAR. I haven't been this interested in a MMORPG since Everquest 1. The difference in WAR is that while PVP and RVR matter they aren't so serious as to be game breakers. If someone dies in PVP they really don't lose anything worthwhile. I compare it a lot to death in something like Team Fortress 2. Yes it sucked you died, and yes the other person can gloat about it, but other than that, there is nothing really detrimental to your character, just your ego

See that's the thing. WAR is "cool" right now for all the reasons Eeezee said... it's new, it hasn't been figured out, people are there to have fun until it is figured out. But it WILL go downhill fast.

WAR's lineage is DAoC. My fond memories for DAoC's PvP (err... RvR) was standing around in Emain Macha at Hardian's Wall waiting for the next big wave of Albions/Midgards/Hibernians to come in and assault the wall. Rinse and repeat. Or if you really felt good about yourself, you'd either be in or get rolled by a roving gank group. It was plain and simple boring. I imagine once people level up and figure out the "system", WAR is going to be pretty much the same thing.

 

[Playmaker]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Actually, the more I really sit back and think about it, I realize that Blizzard really destroyed the MMO concept. They dumbed the game down, created a hampster wheel cage on purpose and get mindless people addicted to the game. Now, don't take to much offense to that, I DID play the game - for a while - but the truth is, if you step back and look at it from a practical viewpoint, the game just blows. It isn't about having fun, not for most... Most people are OBSESSED with getting better gear, and better gear and then better gear. I see people PLAN their characters 70 levels in advance, and also plan their gear before hand! 99.9% of these people invest hundreds and hundreds of hours only to quit playing before they even hit hit level 70. What a waste...

DAOC was truly of one of the best MMOs and I can only hope Warhammer brings back some of those fond memories and friendships. But, like the OP, I am going to doubt it.

The time of MMOs have come and are now going... Blizzard single handedly destroyed the genre... Thanks, Blizzard...

Uh, I think you're viewing the past through rose-tinted glasses. I'm not sure how far back your experience goes, but having started with pre-EQ/UO MUDS like GS3 (back when it was an AOL service), these types of game have always been "hamster wheels" about something (whether it's gear, levels, or some other metric).

I actually didn't play WoW for the first time until recently so I'll hold judgment there, but your description is very applicable to UO, EQ1, AC, AC2, and even GS3 (which is about the extent of my MMORPG career). That's the MMORPG model. The real change is the recent popularity of the genre, which results in more posts like these.

Now don't get me wrong, I loved GS3 and EQ1 (the rest weren't nearly as good). Part of it is obviously the "been there, done that" mentality. Nothing will ever be as fun as early EQ1 for that reason.

Instead of complaining about the MMORPG model, just don't play the genre. It's like complaining that every season of football is the same because it's always about scoring more points than the other team.

 

[CreasianDevaili]

I also personally have rather strong opinions.

Overall, I have been disapointed in just how much everyone seems to care about different playstyles than their own. That person is greedy because they want that gear. That player is wrong because they min/max themselves. This person should be held back to my ability to allocate time to play. That person isnt as hardcore as me because I put in more hours. Etc etc etc...

It is rather piss poor that so many of the mmorpg gamers worry so much about what everyone else is doing that they start playing, and stay playing, just to complain and bitch about what others are doing wrong or how it just bothers them personally. It escalates into so much drama that devs are trying to their best anymore to make everyone happy, thus, making everyone unhappy because the very nature of fairness means nothing anymore.

I played some muds. I played a tad of UO but was a major EQ player. As much as I dont enjoy WoW because of how long I have played, it is rather sad to see people trying to say that mmorpg killed or is killing the genre. Millions are having fun in that mmorpg. I am HAPPY that many gamers are having fun. However that fun comes to them, is their business. Their standards.

I played EQ2 for a good while and I can tell you that it was rather sad. Someone would join from wow, come in and ask questions, and unless they all but admitted that they were a inferior gamer in mmorpgs until the day they stepped into the EQ2 zone they were pretty much attacked. Now albiet, some came just to cause issues, but this steamed from the fact that people were attracted to the sheer idiocy and malice that traveled around on how people got treated. So the trolls and troublemakers came cause they knew they would get all the attention they could handle.

So if you want to know what is killing the industry it is the fact that people have to put others down because of the game they came from, make sure they know they were second class for enjoying themselves, and if they do it right they can become total assholes like the "superior" gamers by picking a few select mmorpgs. People get pissed off, dont know why the hell they are insulted for having fun while gaming like your SUPPOSED TO, and stick to wow instead of exploring cause of it.

WAR has a chance, but the same chance that AoC did. They can blow it like them or succeed. I already have 2 months of sub money allocated to give it 3 months like I gave AoC. I think it has alot of room for fun and hope it brings alot of us a medium by which we can just have fun and not repeat the kindergarden peer pressure roaming bands on recess. That is if people can stop worrying about what is wrong with the other person who dosent "click" with their own priorities.

 

[Malladine]

Originally posted by: Playmaker

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Actually, the more I really sit back and think about it, I realize that Blizzard really destroyed the MMO concept. They dumbed the game down, created a hampster wheel cage on purpose and get mindless people addicted to the game. Now, don't take to much offense to that, I DID play the game - for a while - but the truth is, if you step back and look at it from a practical viewpoint, the game just blows. It isn't about having fun, not for most... Most people are OBSESSED with getting better gear, and better gear and then better gear. I see people PLAN their characters 70 levels in advance, and also plan their gear before hand! 99.9% of these people invest hundreds and hundreds of hours only to quit playing before they even hit hit level 70. What a waste...

DAOC was truly of one of the best MMOs and I can only hope Warhammer brings back some of those fond memories and friendships. But, like the OP, I am going to doubt it.

The time of MMOs have come and are now going... Blizzard single handedly destroyed the genre... Thanks, Blizzard...

Uh, I think you're viewing the past through rose-tinted glasses. I'm not sure how far back your experience goes, but having started with pre-EQ/UO MUDS like GS3 (back when it was an AOL service), these types of game have always been "hamster wheels" about something (whether it's gear, levels, or some other metric).

I actually didn't play WoW for the first time until recently so I'll hold judgment there, but your description is very applicable to UO, EQ1, AC, AC2, and even GS3 (which is about the extent of my MMORPG career). That's the MMORPG model. The real change is the recent popularity of the genre, which results in more posts like these.

Now don't get me wrong, I loved GS3 and EQ1 (the rest weren't nearly as good). Part of it is obviously the "been there, done that" mentality. Nothing will ever be as fun as early EQ1 for that reason.

Instead of complaining about the MMORPG model, just don't play the genre. It's like complaining that every season of football is the same because it's always about scoring more points than the other team.

I disagree Playmaker. WoW has taken the hamster wheel system to entirely new levels. the WHOLE PURPOSE of WoW is to get better gear. That's where Blizzard has placed the ultimate goal...at MOST it's "get better gear to beat the next boss...to get better gear...or to more easily kill other players..."ETFC.

To compare WoW to UO/EQ in this way is a bad idea man, those games were and are very different, more so UO. WoW is attractive because it provides endless purpose through working towards X, Y or Z. Listen to the players, the vast majority know this, even if they aren't aware they know it.

Sociologically speaking this isn't much surprising, given the lack of purpose most people find in real life, so to speak.

I think that ArchAngel777 is taking it a bit far saying Blizzard destroyed the concept, but I do agree they have changed the rules. All Blizzard did was find a great business model. The problem is when players start to expect more of the same style instead of keeping a more open mind and realizing the potential a dynamic MMO has. Mythic seems to see this!

 

[drebo]

Originally posted by: Malladine
I disagree Playmaker. WoW has taken the hamster wheel system to entirely new levels. the WHOLE PURPOSE of WoW is to get better gear. That's where Blizzard has placed the ultimate goal...at MOST it's "get better gear to beat the next boss...to get better gear...or to more easily kill other players..."ETFC.

To compare WoW to UO/EQ in this way is a bad idea man, those games were and are very different, more so UO. WoW is attractive because it provides endless purpose through working towards X, Y or Z. Listen to the players, the vast majority know this, even if they aren't aware they know it.

I'm not sure how you can make a distinction.

WoW's purpose is to make your character as strong as possible by getting the best gear. UO's purpose was to make your character as strong as possible by getting all your skills to the top and getting the most money (and then later getting the best gear).
EQ's purpose was to make your character as strong as possible by getting the best gear.

They're all the same. The purpose of an MMO is character development. There is no solid goal that says "Once you do this, you've beaten the game." That's the point of an MMO...character development. Whether that development comes from grinding Realm Points in DAoC, doing instances in WoW, farming Doom in UO, or camping spawns in EQ, the result is the same: repetitious events for the sake of character advancement.

If you don't like that, then you should not be playing MMOs. They don't work the same way a shoot-em-up game works. They can't. If they did, they would be Counterstrike. If everyone was on the same playing field all the time, you'd have an FPS, not an MMORPG.

Some MMORPGs reward time invested much more than others. UO from the pre-UO:R days didn't reward time played very much at all. WoW rewards it quite a bit. DAoC was somewhere in the middle. WAR seems to reward time played a little less than DAoC, in that your gear does not have quite as deciding an effect on the outcome of a battle.

DAoC, after they implemented New Frontiers, was always about strategy. "They're hitting this keep, but if I hit that keep, it might draw enough off the main force for a second force to be able to successfully defend the keep." WAR seems to be about the same. When you're fighting in groups of 100+, the effects of what gear you have are very minimized.

Also, the "large guilds kill MMOs" argument doesn't fly either. In WAR (as in DAoC), your character choice decides which side of the fight you're on. If you're a Destruction character, you fight on that side. If you're an Order character, you fight on that side. Everyone on each side works toward the same goal in the mix of a battle. It's not FFA PvP, where guild alligience determines who can and cannot attack you. It's Realm PvP, where your character choice determines who can and cannot attack you. Yes, one realm will likely have a larger population than the other, but that was usually never a problem in DAoC, and Mythic will provide PvE bonuses to underpopulated realms (such as more exp per kill).

Basically, none of the complaints raised in this thread apply to WAR any more than they apply to any other MMO that's ever been made. They're all grinds toward making your character the most powerful it can be. You can't get around that, it's the nature of MMOs. If you don't like it, don't play them.

 

[Malladine]

Originally posted by: drebo

Originally posted by: Malladine
I disagree Playmaker. WoW has taken the hamster wheel system to entirely new levels. the WHOLE PURPOSE of WoW is to get better gear. That's where Blizzard has placed the ultimate goal...at MOST it's "get better gear to beat the next boss...to get better gear...or to more easily kill other players..."ETFC.

To compare WoW to UO/EQ in this way is a bad idea man, those games were and are very different, more so UO. WoW is attractive because it provides endless purpose through working towards X, Y or Z. Listen to the players, the vast majority know this, even if they aren't aware they know it.

I'm not sure how you can make a distinction.

WoW's purpose is to make your character as strong as possible by getting the best gear. UO's purpose was to make your character as strong as possible by getting all your skills to the top and getting the most money (and then later getting the best gear).
EQ's purpose was to make your character as strong as possible by getting the best gear.

They're all the same. The purpose of an MMO is character development. There is no solid goal that says "Once you do this, you've beaten the game." That's the point of an MMO...character development. Whether that development comes from grinding Realm Points in DAoC, doing instances in WoW, farming Doom in UO, or camping spawns in EQ, the result is the same: repetitious events for the sake of character advancement.

...

Some MMORPGs reward time invested much more than others. UO from the pre-UO:R days didn't reward time played very much at all. WoW rewards it quite a bit. DAoC was somewhere in the middle. WAR seems to reward time played a little less than DAoC, in that your gear does not have quite as deciding an effect on the outcome of a battle.

...

Basically, none of the complaints raised in this thread apply to WAR any more than they apply to any other MMO that's ever been made. They're all grinds toward making your character the most powerful it can be. You can't get around that, it's the nature of MMOs. If you don't like it, don't play them.

Okay firstly the purpose shouldn't be character development alone, it's a basic element not a goal in itself. It's needed, obviously, but personally I pay the money for an MMO in order to interact with other people in a persistent virtual world that appeals to me...UO had that down and for the record skill had a lot more to do with winning than in WoW and I'm very glad WAR is headed that way. That's an entirely different point though, since those without skill also have money to pay monthly fees if you know what i mean

WoW keeps so many players precisely because it rewards time spent so well, that's the idea behind their business model.

Your attitude of "they're all grinds" is what I meant when I said

The problem is when players start to expect more of the same style instead of keeping a more open mind and realizing the potential a dynamic MMO has.

Yep, DAoC seemed to have this and as I said above WAR is following...a great thing IMO and one example of game design that goes above the "character development grind" you mention.

PS I added to my previous post while you were replying

 

[drebo]

but personally I pay the money for an MMO in order to interact with other people in a persistent virtual world that appeals to me

That's just another aspect of character development (the Role Playing aspect), is it not?

Again, some games simply put more emphasis on different parts of the character development. This is why there is a large variety of games in the market place.

 

[Malladine]

I don't believe so, no, because it's not about my own character at that point, it's the larger group, friends, enemies and all the facets that go with it! I suppose it's about character development in so far as it's your only way to be part of the world, but that's like saying the purpose of life is to be yourself...which is kinda true, maybe? lol

But my point is that WoW's take on it is quite narrow when compared with the genre's potential. Maybe WAR will move us a bit more in that direction!

 

[Playmaker]

Originally posted by: Malladine

Originally posted by: Playmaker

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Actually, the more I really sit back and think about it, I realize that Blizzard really destroyed the MMO concept. They dumbed the game down, created a hampster wheel cage on purpose and get mindless people addicted to the game. Now, don't take to much offense to that, I DID play the game - for a while - but the truth is, if you step back and look at it from a practical viewpoint, the game just blows. It isn't about having fun, not for most... Most people are OBSESSED with getting better gear, and better gear and then better gear. I see people PLAN their characters 70 levels in advance, and also plan their gear before hand! 99.9% of these people invest hundreds and hundreds of hours only to quit playing before they even hit hit level 70. What a waste...

DAOC was truly of one of the best MMOs and I can only hope Warhammer brings back some of those fond memories and friendships. But, like the OP, I am going to doubt it.

The time of MMOs have come and are now going... Blizzard single handedly destroyed the genre... Thanks, Blizzard...

Uh, I think you're viewing the past through rose-tinted glasses. I'm not sure how far back your experience goes, but having started with pre-EQ/UO MUDS like GS3 (back when it was an AOL service), these types of game have always been "hamster wheels" about something (whether it's gear, levels, or some other metric).

I actually didn't play WoW for the first time until recently so I'll hold judgment there, but your description is very applicable to UO, EQ1, AC, AC2, and even GS3 (which is about the extent of my MMORPG career). That's the MMORPG model. The real change is the recent popularity of the genre, which results in more posts like these.

Now don't get me wrong, I loved GS3 and EQ1 (the rest weren't nearly as good). Part of it is obviously the "been there, done that" mentality. Nothing will ever be as fun as early EQ1 for that reason.

Instead of complaining about the MMORPG model, just don't play the genre. It's like complaining that every season of football is the same because it's always about scoring more points than the other team.

I disagree Playmaker. WoW has taken the hamster wheel system to entirely new levels. the WHOLE PURPOSE of WoW is to get better gear. That's where Blizzard has placed the ultimate goal...at MOST it's "get better gear to beat the next boss...to get better gear...or to more easily kill other players..."ETFC.

To compare WoW to UO/EQ in this way is a bad idea man, those games were and are very different, more so UO. WoW is attractive because it provides endless purpose through working towards X, Y or Z. Listen to the players, the vast majority know this, even if they aren't aware they know it.

Sociologically speaking this isn't much surprising, given the lack of purpose most people find in real life, so to speak.

I think that ArchAngel777 is taking it a bit far saying Blizzard destroyed the concept, but I do agree they have changed the rules. All Blizzard did was find a great business model. The problem is when players start to expect more of the same style instead of keeping a more open mind and realizing the potential a dynamic MMO has. Mythic seems to see this!

If you weren't grinding out gear in EQ what were you doing? Why else did you spend days fine-tuning your avatar or statue strats? Why else were you farming keys for your guild to get primal or through ssra, literally for weeks?

You do two things in MMORPGs, develop your character and do it in a soical environment. RvR definitely throws another dynamic into the mix, but it's not revolutionary by any means. And on the WoW issue, like I said, I've only played for a short time, but it definitely feels like EQ 2.0 so far (which isn't a bad thing in my opinion, as I enjoyed EQ). Clearly an improvement in many areas (but not all), only with a lot more leetspeak.

 

[Malladine]

Originally posted by: Playmaker

If you weren't grinding out gear in EQ what were you doing? Why else did you spend days fine-tuning your avatar or statue strats? Why else were you farming keys for your guild to get primal or through ssra, literally for weeks?

You do two things in MMORPGs, develop your character and do it in a soical environment. RvR definitely throws another dynamic into the mix, but it's not revolutionary by any means. And on the WoW issue, like I said, I've only played for a short time, but it definitely feels like EQ 2.0 so far (which isn't a bad thing in my opinion, as I enjoyed EQ). Clearly an improvement in many areas (but not all), only with a lot more leetspeak.

This is oversimiplifying, IMO the addition of dynamic RvR is more than minor, it's beginning (or rather continuing) to explore the idea of giving players the ability to change their world. WoW has the most static MMO concept I can think of. It's closer to a hamster wheel than a sandbox

And to answer your EQ question, I felt that the difficulty itself added a lot of interest and excitement to the game. So much so that I never considered grinding, it didn't get dull because there was usually something nearby that could kill you, which of course meant more in EQ as well, to it's great credit. It was like a badass version of WoW.

 

[drebo]

If you want a sandbox, you'll only find that in Second Life.

If you want a game, traditional MMOs offer good aspects of both social and technical character development.

PvP is a way to mix those two elements together, and RvR is just one type of PvP.

 

[Malladine]

Originally posted by: drebo
If you want a sandbox, you'll only find that in Second Life.

If you want a game, traditional MMOs offer good aspects of both social and technical character development.

PvP is a way to mix those two elements together, and RvR is just one type of PvP.

okay I give up

 

[chalmers]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Frankly the community is a cess-pool of flamers and people who just guild-hop to the latest and biggest group of people who raid the most. In world of warcraft, nobody felt like a friend anymore. Everyone felt like random angry faces drooling over their next item.

Well said... I agree with the OP very strongy over his observation. Unfortunately, the part that really gets on my nerves are overused slangs and overall childish behavior.

For instance, phrases like this make me think a complete idiot is behind the computer screen.

QQ
L2P Nub!
Haxxor!
Nub!
LEET
UBAH!

These types of words and phrases really turn me off to the MMO scene. I don't really care to play games with adult children. I'd have more fun playing with some retards, to be honest.

Agree 100% here. This is one of the main reasons I quit WoW...I just CANT STAND people who type like that. The official WoW forums are filled with weirdos like that. Does anyone that actually types like that on a regular basis care to come out, so to speak, and explain why they type in such a ridiculous way?

 

[Dumac]

I haven't played an MMO extensively since EQ1, and I didn't really participate in any PVP back then.

I'm really out of the loop as far as PVP goes, but I'm excited to try WAR.

I do agree that MMOs feel less like games populated with fellow friendly players and more like a world filled with cold strangers. But I guess that is what you get with such a huge community inflation and the rise of teen MMO gaming.

Just look at Counter-strike.

 

[Gothgar]

it is probably because as computers have become more widespread there are more kiddies playing games, it felt like the maturity level in games was a lot high just a few years ago.