Why I am skeptical about Warhammer

[stumben32]

Quick Backround, I have been playing MMOS since Everquest. Most of the big titles including SWG, DAOC, and of course another popular MMO you just may of heard of. And the latest, being Age of Conan.

There is something eating away at my gaming Soul...like a virus, and I feel compelled to post about it. Many of you will jump in agreement and I will probably also piss many of you off. Mostly I am just blowing some steam here

Something happened in online gaming. It is hard for me to pinpoint when. I think it was after the Tribes days.. perhaps in the later stages of Unreal Tournament. It then started spreading to MMOS, especially as PVP started becomming more popular, and eventually now PVP Is arguably the most talked about aspect of MMOS.

Its hard to put this "something" into words. Back when I was playing Wolfenstein ET for example, I would of called it Competition, and extremely fun at that. There was a really close community in that game, competing in matches and tournaments certainly had a degree of smack talk but it was just a blast.

Soon after that I bought Star Wars Galaxies. For many players including myself, this is when Player vs Player started to come into the limelight in MMOS. Sure there was actually more HARDCORE pvp in AC and Ultima online - but it just had not spilled into the masses yet.

In the SWG days, perhaps is when this Online VIRUS began. In PVP..theres often really no CLEAR winner or loser. People die, they respawn with minimal penalties and jump back into the fight. One side is always outnumbered, and might get spawn camped. But what started happening was just insane people flocking to msg boards ranting and raving about who won or lost. It started as some role playing rebel vs imperial but it got ugly..guild drama ensued. Yet I found it overall just entertainment albeit borderline childish in the end. SWG imploded thanks to SOE so it ended before it got too ugly.

Enter World of Warcraft. WoW was primarily and many would agree still is a raiding game. People define status by their items. PVP is a huge part of it. And this online VIRUS grew. You all know what I am talking about. When people die in PVP it is an instant reaction to flame everyone they can, usually not even directed at people in particular but other classes. Its like heaven forbid learn how to play better...it must be because everyone else is an A-HOLE or their class needs a nerf. Frankly the community is a cess-pool of flamers and people who just guild-hop to the latest and biggest group of people who raid the most. In world of warcraft, nobody felt like a friend anymore. Everyone felt like random angry faces drooling over their next item.

Age of Conan. This was going to be it!! Real FFA pvp, kill anyone anywhere! Clear winners and losers based on siege battles. This is when I witnessed the lowest form of online gaming I have ever witnessed.

I do not know how to best put in words what transpired. Much of it is due to Funcom and all the games problems. People left in masses quickly and smaller guilds were bottom feeders paying tribute to the online gaming virus. The Virus manifested itself in Guilds that came with a mission. And that mission was to destroy the server. I mean, it got to a point where a guild that shall not be named, seemed to outnumber the rest of the server. Level 80 players, rather than partake in some good pvp action - just simply JOINED the powerhouse - maybe so they wouldnt be killed? So they could amass more money? But...wheres the fighting? Where is the pvp?

It got worse than that - the guilds were just pvp powerhouses. In fact it felt to many of us, they only PVPed to protect the farming spots. And in turn sold GOLD. Gold Farmers. I seriously believe the server was domininated by people looking to turn some profit. The forums were even worse than WoW ever was. Yet everyone seems to like to flame people for playing WoW. Um....I would bet 95% of us played WOW.

The MMO community has developed this sense of elitism which is just ruining the fun of it all. If I want to play something competitively...and get a clear sense of who won or lost... play a round of TF2 or call of duty.

In MMOS, theres only one way to clearly win. Take-over the server. And guilds are now capable of this more than ever. Sure..this can actually be a ton of fun - but I just doubt the communities ability to have fun anymore.

Warhammer is going to suffer from this elitism Virus, in fact it already is. Many of us do not go in with this attitude.. but remains to be seen if people like myself can stomach it.

Of course.. I am still sick enough in the head out of morbid curiosity to give it a try

 

[bennylong]

I hope we don't see the nerf and game change like we did in SWG with all the whining. The message board in SWG PVP turned out better than the in game PVP. If only SOE didn't listen to all the whiners will "nerf this, nerf that, this is too hard blah blah blah" I would still be playing the game.

WAR doesn't have 1 shot kill class like SWG where a Rifleman can take you down in 2 seconds or a Pistoleer can kill you knockdown forever, etc so there might be less nerfing cry

 

[imported_sushicide]

When you take away the social constrains, people automatically become assholes on the 'net, doesn't matter which game you play someone will always feel compelled to wave his e-penis around, just learn to ignore it.

 

[ggnl]

So you think the MMO community is too competitive?

I don't quite understand your rant. Large scale organized PVP is kind of the whole point of WAR.

 

[chizow]

Good post. I think it was just a matter of time for MMOs to cross-over into the realm of PvP, if you look at one of the earliest problems in the RPG genre with PvP/PK'ing it was with Diablo and TK'ing. :laugh:

I think the main problem is that RPGs, by nature, put far too much emphasis on items and luck when determining success or failure in PvP. Certainly there's some reward and skill involved with tactics, positioning, timing, focused fire, buttom-mashing speed etc, but it still boils down to dice rolls on some random number generator. This isn't all that different from RTS PvP although the scale of units controlled and ability to micro in RTS require skill without question.

Personally I'd like to see a better balance of skill vs. items/time spent/grinding. Like you mentioned, AoC was supposed to be it, but it wasn't even close. I'd love to see something more like PlanetSide, which was an FPS at the core, but had similar ranking/progressions that allowed you slight increases in combat effectiveness.

I haven't looked into WAR much, was turned off by poor feedback from earlier Beta phases. I've heard from a few former guild/clanmates who want to try it out however, so I may take a look at it.

 

[Fingolfin269]

The problem is that these games don't really have any mechanism in place to make your in-game actions have consequences. The best PvP game I ever played was Shadowbane but that was because the players basically developed their own political system within the game.

To be honest the game itself sucked but the politics made it awesome. Guilds built their own cities and it took a lot of time and effort to do so. However, other players had free reign to destroy what you worked so hard to build. The game itself had no intentional mechanism to keep you in line but if you went out and started pk'n people from another guild there was a good chance you would have some visitors at your city gate in a day or two.

This led to alliances, random pot shots at other alliances, skirmishes, peace talks, backstabbing, and finally open war. Some of those fights were epic and the stakes were high.

I always wished someone would make a similar game where the game itself didnt suck but the idea was the same. Perhaps one day...

 

[drebo]

The problem with your post is that it doesn't fit WAR, and it ignores the fact that PvP has always been a part of every MMO since their inception. It adds depth, excitement, and fun to games that would otherwise be WoW.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. You point a finger at people who complain that someone beat them at PvP, yet you do the exact same thing. PvP in games is only about one thing: defeating your opponant. That's a clear victory. In DAoC, you take the keep or get the relic. In WoW, you win the battleground. In UO, you lived to use your gear another hour.

Some games have PvP much more integrated into the fabric of the game. In UO, PvP was everywhere. Murderers were a fact of life. In DAoC, the ultimate goal was to participate in the realm war. In other games, PvP was an afterthought which had little to no impact on the game at large, and in fact you could go through the entire game without ever once engaging in PvP...see WoW and Guild Wars.

DAoC and WAR are unique in that the endgame focus of the game is to help your realm in a never-ending war against the other realms. This breeds a large-scale team-based PvP setting which is both fun and exciting for large guilds and small guilds a-like. In DAoC, I was part of a 3-man guild, yet I almost always was able to get a group in RvR. I have no reason to believe that WAR will be any different. Persistent state PvP is an interesting and unique beast, and I think that WAR will improve on what it started with DAoC.

I'm excited to try it, and with Target selling the preorder with beta code for $0.99, it's harmless.

 

[Ganeedi]

I think your rant is about elitism being related to pvp in online gaming. Also that this is a new phenomenon? I dont really agree. Elitism in online gaming is a definitely not a new phenomenon. Some of the hardcore raiding everquest guilds had some of the worst elitism i have ever seen. And that was in a strict PvE environment.

You do bring up some interesting points regarding gold farming however.

 

[BladeVenom]

I was going to read what the OP said, but failed my saving throw for boredom.

 

[SunnyD]

Pure PvP game = Shadowbane.

Shadowbane failed miserably.

I personally hate PvP, as it doesn't suit my playstyle. That, and when I want to PvP, I want to do it in a class that gets to kill with impunity, 1-shot, 1 kill. After all, if you rip someone's guts out with your blade, do you really expect them to fight back? Or if you blow a 2" hole though their face, do you really expect them to fight back? If I want to duel, I'll duel... a controlled environment where it's not to the death.

PvE shouldn't be about the grind to cap levels, but in PvP based games it is. WoW had a compelling storyline woven though the game, but after getting 4 characters to 60 and seeing all there was and knowing the only thing left would be grinding gear for lame-ass PvP... I sold my account because PvP is generally a piss fest of whining and farming the have-nots. Yes, I was a have-not because of the incredible requirement of must-grind-to-get-best-gear-in-game which I had no time for nor any desire to do.

I think MMOs should focus on story and content to keep players enthralled with the game itself, not simply a vehicle to get to level cap and then go mindless PvP whatever crosses your path. If I was interested in the latter, I'd play pong.

 

[Eeezee]

I've noticed too, but I don't think it's related purely to PvP. I remember noticing a significant decline in fun when Asheron's Call players started really figuring out the system. At first, everyone created fun characters to roleplay with or that they figured would be strong without actually doing calculation. And it was great! Turbine was easily able to design their monthly content patches so that everything was accessible to most people (best part of AC - new items, quests, and NPCs every patch). There wasn't even that much leveling; you'd rarely see anyone above lvl 40 in the first few months. Much of the game wasn't even explored by 6 months later!

And then people started building min/max characters. Soon everyone was some sort of ridiculous hybrid meant to get every last point of damage. This was when people really started complaining about class differences. And now that there was min/max characters, Turbine started having to design ludicrously difficult content that only a min/max group could hope to beat. By this point, the magic system that started out mysterious (it was originally very difficult to learn spells) was completely solved, people knew which character templates were best, and the game just wasn't fun anymore.

Things definitely got worse after people "solved" the game, I think. Now when a MMO is released, someone hits the level cap before the end of the first month and everything is pretty much solved in the first week. Some people don't play these games, they conquer them; and knowing that the game has already been beaten, it kills the joy for everyone else. Maybe you'll do it yourself without help, but you'll still know that others did it first.

That's the inherent problem in MMOs; only one person wins. Chances are good that it won't be you. That's why raid guilds in WoW go crazy for first server kills. THEY beat the boss; anyone else who beats it later is just second place. They'll feel good about themselves, but not as good.

 

[imported_protoz]

It doesn't help that developers cater to the elite ass-hattery that goes on in end-game. The "If you don't have tier-32 goblin gloves that give you a 1% edge over the next guy I don't want to even give you a chance" thinking is pretty lame. If you can only beat an instance with this exact gear setup then the game is not well balanced and just encourages the grind.

From what I've read about WAR, your gear is not as important as it is in WoW so you don't have to run the same instance 100 times for said gloves to have that upper hand in combat. It's more based on skill than WoW.

I really wish they would take a page out of Eve. If you lose in PvP, you can lose your actual gear. Make real consequences to losing in PvP and I think there will be a bit more order to it.

 

[WraithETC]

Your not from Bane on AOC are you?

 

[Modelworks]

I don't think WAR fits in with the PVP elite attitude that other games have. I have played over 125 hours of WAR. I haven't been this interested in a MMORPG since Everquest 1. The difference in WAR is that while PVP and RVR matter they aren't so serious as to be game breakers. If someone dies in PVP they really don't lose anything worthwhile. I compare it a lot to death in something like Team Fortress 2. Yes it sucked you died, and yes the other person can gloat about it, but other than that, there is nothing really detrimental to your character, just your ego

RVR is the same way. Yes they can take over a keep, or even a city. But that doesn't make them all powerful and doesn't mean you can't take it back or beat them next time. It isn't a game breaker when you lose an area. I've said it before "This is NOT a hardcore PVP game, it is very light hearted in the way it handles PVP/RVR" . To me it has the right balance. Yes you can PVP , but you can't ruin anyone else gaming fun by doing it. WOW made the mistake of trying to make the game a street fighter clone.

Again, it is really a lot like Team Fortress 2 in the way death effects the player. It isn't so much about the single player, but about your team completing the goals. Equipment and gear plays some roles, but the majority of taking of keeps and cities is all about strategy.

If you think that because you got great gear and your higher level so you and some friends are going to take a keep by storming it , you will not live long. You are going to have to do things like stake it out. Watch who is there and who is leaving. Get players when they leave the keep, then sneak some around the back and try to lure some out the front, then rush them from all sides once they leave the keep.

 

[VashHT]

Originally posted by: protoz

I really wish they would take a page out of Eve. If you lose in PvP, you can lose your actual gear. Make real consequences to losing in PvP and I think there will be a bit more order to it.

I haven't played EVE at all, but I don't think this method would work for WAR. Reason being is they want everyone to be involved in RvR and PvP, if you lost your gear from dying once people would avoid RvR unless they were in a big gank group or something.

 

[chalmers]

I agree with the OP. After playing WoW for over 3 years and many MMO's before that, I have noticed a significant decline in online attitudes and the rise in e-sport elitist jerks, all over a video game. One way I try to counteract that is by rolling characters on RP servers only. It doesn't totally eliminate it, but it helps.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Try EvE-Online, never fly anything you can't afford to replace. "Titans" that require the several months worth of the resources a large alliance (at least it used to) takes in, with the power to destroy an entire fleet can be lost (and several have). It even has real honest to god propaganda once you get into the serious 0.0 alliance warfare (how safe a system is, 1 being care bear safe and 0.0 meaning anything and everything goes).

But the elitism is rather strong there. I also quit it due to the horribly boring money grind and fleet battles turn into lag fests when you have 100+ people duking it out in a single battle.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Frankly the community is a cess-pool of flamers and people who just guild-hop to the latest and biggest group of people who raid the most. In world of warcraft, nobody felt like a friend anymore. Everyone felt like random angry faces drooling over their next item.

Well said... I agree with the OP very strongy over his observation. Unfortunately, the part that really gets on my nerves are overused slangs and overall childish behavior.

For instance, phrases like this make me think a complete idiot is behind the computer screen.

QQ
L2P Nub!
Haxxor!
Nub!
LEET
UBAH!

These types of words and phrases really turn me off to the MMO scene. I don't really care to play games with adult children. I'd have more fun playing with some retards, to be honest.

In DAOC it was easy to make friends and have a good time... You wouldn't get lame people joining a group for 5 minutes then saying "Thanks for the group guys! Gotta go!" it just didn't happen often... In WoW it happens anytime you get a full group, or anytime an epic item didn't drop within a 5 minute window... WoW brings out some terrible actions in people. Even RL friends were so damn greedy in the game and all for what? For a stupid GD item that doesn't mean dick.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: chalmers
I agree with the OP. After playing WoW for over 3 years and many MMO's before that, I have noticed a significant decline in online attitudes and the rise in e-sport elitist jerks, all over a video game. One way I try to counteract that is by rolling characters on RP servers only. It doesn't totally eliminate it, but it helps.

Make them lose their precious epics when they die, see how long that smug facade lasts.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Actually, the more I really sit back and think about it, I realize that Blizzard really destroyed the MMO concept. They dumbed the game down, created a hampster wheel cage on purpose and get mindless people addicted to the game. Now, don't take to much offense to that, I DID play the game - for a while - but the truth is, if you step back and look at it from a practical viewpoint, the game just blows. It isn't about having fun, not for most... Most people are OBSESSED with getting better gear, and better gear and then better gear. I see people PLAN their characters 70 levels in advance, and also plan their gear before hand! 99.9% of these people invest hundreds and hundreds of hours only to quit playing before they even hit hit level 70. What a waste...

DAOC was truly of one of the best MMOs and I can only hope Warhammer brings back some of those fond memories and friendships. But, like the OP, I am going to doubt it.

The time of MMOs have come and are now going... Blizzard single handedly destroyed the genre... Thanks, Blizzard...

 

[novasatori]

Originally posted by: drebo

I'm excited to try it, and with Target selling the preorder with beta code for $0.99, it's harmless.

do I gotta go to target or can I do this online?

I wanna try it before I buy it

 

[skace]

OP's post is decent, you can build on it quite a bit. For instance, Shadowbane was also victim of the mob mentality, this is where people all tend to join the most powerful force instead of creating interesting and equal teams. Any time you have group PVP that rewards massive armies, you will have people joining the largest army they can find. Any time your PVP rewards small group tactics (even if large scale warfare is the bigger goal) you will see people attempt to form their own elite teams. Shadowbane was really a good social experiment on what not to do but I think Age of Conan failed in completely different areas, I don't know why the PVP failed, but the game failed because level 30 was apparently as high as the dev team got. Everything past 30 was a broken joke. I managed to get to 50 but finally had to admit I was grasping at straws just to get that high.

The problem with your post is this term virus that you came up with. It seems like you are talking about the dumbing down of difficulty. But that doesn't fit with your entire argument. You are using the term virus to encompass several things wrong, lack of penalty, lack of skill, mass appeal, and general poor gameplay are all different things. If you addressed each of these things uniquely, you'd have a much longer post and would probably lose more peoples attention, but you'd be closer to a correct answer. I've wasted my time writing about the flaws of MMOs in the past, not sure I can be persuaded to put more than 3 or 4 paragraphs into it again.

Up until last week, I was extremely skeptical about Warhammer. That is when I saw someone's beta screenshots and they were 30x better than what Warhammer's PR department has been putting out. Sure, graphics aren't everything, but it was good to finally see that the game wasn't identical to WOW. I'm willing to give Warhammer the benefit of the doubt, especially after I put money on that abortion called Age of Conan.

 

[Aikouka]

WoW PVP was actually a lot of fun before the Honor System and Battlegrounds. I think some of the things you complain about were actually some of the best parts about it... you had a lot of player interaction! You always had a couple players that stood out (for whatever reason) and my god, you always wanted to kill them when you saw them outside of some large scale battle. There was a lot of talk on the forums between players... and there was no general rhyme or reason to do it other than fun and messing around. Give players a reason like gear and they'll just do it to do it.. it stops being so much fun.

I also think when WoW implemented cross-realm battlegrounds that it hurt the game even more. Even in battlegrounds, you knew your opponents (because you played against them so often! ) and even if you never spoke to them, you had your own mini-biography on them "hey, there's that mage I love to 1-shot lulz!"

I knew so many people from my old server from the early days because we had much more of a community than before... now we're just players existing on this thing you call a server/realm where the only time we "meet" each other is when you're bored and kill my lowbie =\.

 

[pontifex]

I really don't get PVP in mmos. It's never a fair battle because one side always has more people. You never get to do a 1 vs 1 fight in a battle, you always get ganged up on, and the higher level players always gank and grief the lower level players.

It always takes forever to kill someone in an mmo too, because they have so many hp, get heals from other players, or use potions. and forget it if it's 2 vs. 1.

If I'm going to play PVP, I'd prefer to do it in an FPS. at least it takes skill to play and you have a chance to win vs. multiple opponents f your good/lucky enough.

 

[ViviTheMage]

I agree..

Also, FOR THE HERD!! I was in murder herd in AoC...we killed everything, had the most 80's and such on our realm...muahahhaha