Why hasn't anybody actually driven a Volt when it's supposedly 7 months away?

[LTC8K6]

Well, the Volt could allow many people to use very little gasoline at all, if the electric range is good enough to get to work and back. My round trip is less than 10 miles, for example. If I bought a Volt as a second car, it would theoretically never need gasoline, except for the minute amount used for the required running of the engine once in a while for maintenance.

I'm trying to figure if using no gasoline at all would make the purchase viable.

 

[obamanation]

The thing is, 50MPG really isn't that great. I mean sure, it's better than most cars out on the road. But my fiancee's 2001 Civic sedan can pull 38-40MPG on the highway all day long. All that hybrid technology for 10MPG? Seems somewhat silly.

I may have a skewed view of it though, since my car has set the bar so high. I just can't consider 50MPG groundbreaking when I can pull 75MPG or more all day long. When the Prius or another hybrid can pull 80MPG, I'll start to be impressed.

I know 50MPG isn't that great but that's exactly what the Volt gets... So if the Volt gets 50MPG and the Prius gets 50MPG, why would you get the Volt unless charging from a wall outlet so that you can get "40 miles" of pure electric driving is something you desperately want. When I drove the Prius for the time that I could, I actually didn't get 50MPG but actually 60 on the highway and 80 in the city. If you want a vehicle that gets really good mileage, wait for the Aptera Gas Electric Hybrid which will get 130MPG on gasoline alone.. (This means the battery is fully depleted)

I'm trying to figure if using no gasoline at all would make the purchase viable.

I promise you that if you get the Chevy Volt, you WILL use gasoline. There is absolutely no question in my mind that you will use gasoline and worse yet, you'll use a lot more than you think you would. Just get a Prius if you care about saving gas. Also you're definitely not saving the environment with the Volt even if you could get away with never burning the gasoline because the CO2 output from a coal power plant is higher than that of a 50mpg purely gasoline vehicle.

 

[TruePaige]

Well, the Volt could allow many people to use very little gasoline at all, if the electric range is good enough to get to work and back. My round trip is less than 10 miles, for example. If I bought a Volt as a second car, it would theoretically never need gasoline, except for the minute amount used for the required running of the engine once in a while for maintenance.

I'm trying to figure if using no gasoline at all would make the purchase viable.

My math shows that the Volt could save me up to $5 a day, for up to $1825 annually. Of course with no price for the car yet announced It's hard to factor in whether it would be worth it or not.

The $7500 tax credit from the government would be very helpful though but only if it is refundable (haven't looked because I am not in the car market), otherwise it would do me no good so far.

 

[TruePaige]

I know 50MPG isn't that great but that's exactly what the Volt gets... So if the Volt gets 50MPG and the Prius gets 50MPG, why would you get the Volt unless charging from a wall outlet so that you can get "40 miles" of pure electric driving is something you desperately want. When I drove the Prius for the time that I could, I actually didn't get 50MPG but actually 60 on the highway and 80 in the city. If you want a vehicle that gets really good mileage, wait for the Aptera Gas Electric Hybrid which will get 130MPG on gasoline alone.. (This means the battery is fully depleted)

Your logic doesn't make sense.

Assuming all other things equal why WOULDN'T you take the Volt?

equivalent MPG plus a VERY cheap 40 miles of electric power.

Just going off the very things you said in your own post, how did you come out with the Prius being on top there?

 

[LTC8K6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

Most of the specs are in the wiki article.

 

[LTC8K6]

The 40 miles might be best case though. We don't know. If your morning trip is in darkness, then you'll be running lights. If it's raining you'll have lights/wipers/AC for defog.

If it's cold out, you'll need heat and the engine may run so it will stay warmed up, etc.

If it's below 32F, I think the Volt will not run on the battery until the battery is warmed up, but there may be a warming circuit with the charge system so that when the car is plugged in, the battery is kept above 32F.

Lots of variables.

 

[obamanation]

Your logic doesn't make sense.

Assuming all other things equal why WOULDN'T you take the Volt?

equivalent MPG plus a VERY cheap 40 miles of electric power.

Just going off the very things you said in your own post, how did you come out with the Prius being on top there?

The Volt costs at least $10K more than the Prius with the wonderful benefit of being a beta tester.

 

[Eli]

I know 50MPG isn't that great but that's exactly what the Volt gets... So if the Volt gets 50MPG and the Prius gets 50MPG, why would you get the Volt unless charging from a wall outlet so that you can get "40 miles" of pure electric driving is something you desperately want. When I drove the Prius for the time that I could, I actually didn't get 50MPG but actually 60 on the highway and 80 in the city. If you want a vehicle that gets really good mileage, wait for the Aptera Gas Electric Hybrid which will get 130MPG on gasoline alone.. (This means the battery is fully depleted)

The commute is one thing, but what about days you aren't commuting? Cars get their worst mileage on a cold start, short trip. Being able to run errands to the grocery store, post office, around town.. without having to worry about fuel would be nice.

Also, what if your commute is 50 miles? If you can't plug in at work, you'll end up using some fuel. But, for example, 250MPG @ 40 miles and 10 miles at 50MPG is still 210MPG overall. How and what are they going to rate it at? On one hand, rating it in the familiar MPG makes sense, but how do you even calculate that? Watt hours per mile would make more sense.

If your commute was 120 miles round trip and you got 250MPG for the first 40 miles, 50MPG for the remaining 80 miles, you would average 133MPG.

Those are pretty impressive numbers, overall. Also, how many miles the charge actually lasts will depend greatly on driving habits, terrain and weather conditions. It might only be 30, but it might be 50MPC(miles per charge? lol). Also, let's not forget about regenerative braking. It is not difficult to encounter situations where you can recharge your battery quite easily. I think that's something most people are overlooking. Regenerative braking can recapture a lot of energy.

A 300V, 50Ah pack would take approximately 30kWh to recharge from empty. That's about $3.50 worth of electricity at the national average of ~11 cents per kWh. It would never be completely dead, though.

 

[TruePaige]

The Volt costs at least $10K more than the Prius with the wonderful benefit of being a beta tester.

Do you get $7500 off a Prius in the form of a tax credit?

You know the final price of the Volt?

Also, are you familiar with the concepts of the value of liquidity? It makes that (hypothetical) 10k less important as it can be a largely delayed cost while you get immediate benefit from the freed capital that would have been flushed on fuel costs.

If you factor in the tax credit the break even point for someone who has a 70 mile round trip daily average you come somewhere around 1.5 years. After that you are blowing the Prius away in cost savings. Otherwise the break even point can be somewhere close to 5 years.

Of course I didn't get very specific with the math for the pure reason that final pricing details aren't available. I'd like to see a reasonably specced Prius vs Volt price breakdown to narrow it in, but I don't see the Volt as being a bad choice.

Personally I want the Model S when it launches though..*sun*

 

[LTC8K6]

The Volt's final price seems to be settling at $40K, so $32.5K after the tax credit, or $27.5K in California because they give you another $5k rebate.

I can see a black market developing for cars bought in Cali...

The idea of the public paying $12.5K for each California Volt just rubs me wrong, though...

 

[obamanation]

The commute is one thing, but what about days you aren't commuting? Cars get their worst mileage on a cold start, short trip. Being able to run errands to the grocery store, post office, around town.. without having to worry about fuel would be nice.

The Volt uses the gasoline engine on colder days in order to heat up the battery pack...so.....no dice.

Also, what if your commute is 50 miles? If you can't plug in at work, you'll end up using some fuel. But, for example, 250MPG @ 40 miles and 10 miles at 50MPG is still 210MPG overall. How and what are they going to rate it at? On one hand, rating it in the familiar MPG makes sense, but how do you even calculate that? Watt hours per mile would make more sense.

If your commute was 120 miles round trip and you got 250MPG for the first 40 miles, 50MPG for the remaining 80 miles, you would average 133MPG.

Those are pretty impressive numbers, overall.

Also the "MPG" numbers are a bunch of nonsense because if you compare a purely electric vehicle that gets like "112MPG" (their retarded math), it has the same carbon footprint as a purely gasoline vehicle that gets 50mpg.
Don't believe me? Go to fueleconomy.gov, At the top, ->Find and Compare cars, in the side bar -> Compare Side by Side->2002->Toyota->Rav4 EV, then in the side bar -> Compare Side by Side->2010->Toyota->Prius.

Then you'll see a page comparing the 2002 RAV4 EV and the 2010 Toyota Prius. For Carbon Footprint, it'll show that it's 3.8 Tons for the Prius AND for the Rav4 EV.

 

[LTC8K6]

The LEAF is going to be $32K with the same incentives. Plus you have to buy the 220V charging station at around $2.2k installed.

http://gm-volt.com/2010/03/30/official-us-nissan-leaf-price-32780/

 

[TruePaige]

The Volt uses the gasoline engine on colder days in order to heat up the battery pack...so.....no dice.


Also the "MPG" numbers are a bunch of nonsense because if you compare a purely electric vehicle that gets like "112MPG" (their retarded math), it has the same carbon footprint as a purely gasoline vehicle that gets 50mpg.
Don't believe me? Go to fueleconomy.gov, At the top, ->Find and Compare cars, in the side bar -> Compare Side by Side->2002->Toyota->Rav4 EV, then in the side bar -> Compare Side by Side->2010->Toyota->Prius.

Then you'll see a page comparing the 2002 RAV4 EV and the 2010 Toyota Prius. For Carbon Footprint, it'll show that it's 3.8 Tons for the Prius AND for the Rav4 EV.

What the heck are you talking about? You have no clue how to interpret the MPG numbers (obviously) and no basis for your argument, which has proven pretty fruitless on all fronts.

I don't know why you keep trying to make up reasons this is a bad car. 0.o

 

[TruePaige]

The Volt uses the gasoline engine on colder days in order to heat up the battery pack...so.....no dice.

Only true if it wasn't plugged in overnight AND the battery is below minimum operating temperature of 32 degrees F.

Most people will have their Volt's plugged in overnight to save the most money and in many parts of the country the amount of weather that is less than 32 degrees is minimal.

If the Volt is plugged in overnight the batteries will always stay within operating range, the system controls that.

So yes, dice.

 

[obamanation]

What the heck are you talking about? You have no clue how to interpret the MPG numbers (obviously) and no basis for your argument, which has proven pretty fruitless on all fronts.

I don't know why you keep trying to make up reasons this is a bad car. 0.o

Thanks for not actually following a word of my post.. Since nobody wants to do what I asked them to do, I'm just going to post the damn pic and get it over with.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[StageLeft]

It's going to be very difficult math for a Volt to make more sense than bottom of the line Prius (which is fairly well equipped). It may be more attractive vs a Prius V, though. But chances are if you're driving enough for the volt to start to approach a similar cost, let alone beat it, you're well past the 40 miles/day anyway. Volt will likely be like initial hybrid tech in that it's neat but at the beginning too expensive to be anyway close to actually worth it from a purely financial standpoint.

 

[LTC8K6]

Thanks for not actually following a word of my post.. Since nobody wants to do what I asked them to do, I'm just going to post the damn pic and get it over with.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Yet the 2002 Electric Ford Explorer is rated 55mpg but has a 7.7 carbon footprint...

The carbon footprint has to be from the generation of electricity, but the numbers still seem odd.

 

[LTC8K6]

It's going to be very difficult math for a Volt to make more sense than bottom of the line Prius (which is fairly well equipped). It may be more attractive vs a Prius V, though. But chances are if you're driving enough for the volt to start to approach a similar cost, let alone beat it, you're well past the 40 miles/day anyway. Volt will likely be like initial hybrid tech in that it's neat but at the beginning too expensive to be anyway close to actually worth it from a purely financial standpoint.

Won't we also have a factory plug-in Prius soon?

Chevy has already announced plans to cheapen up on the battery pack by eliminating active thermal controls and shortening the life and range. Gen2 volts will be made much more cheaply than Gen1's.

 

[StageLeft]

Won't we also have a factory plug-in Prius soon?

Chevy has already announced plans to cheapen up on the battery pack by eliminating active thermal controls and shortening the life and range. Gen2 volts will be made much more cheaply than Gen1's.

I think the plug-in Prius, last I read, will be a disappointment. It may have a huge increase in cost and even then a poor range on it, kind of pointless. I guess we'll see when it gets closer to production, though, but I am not happy with what I read so far.

Edit: Yep, looks like a piece of sh*t to be honest: http://www.greencarreports.com/blog...-in-hybrid-on-sale-in-2011-less-than-10k-more

This link is December. It speaks of a Leaf battery lease. I heard that's no longer factual, though. Back to the plug-in prius if you're talking about 14 miles on electric and it's about $5k more you'd never get your money back on that, probably not even if you literally charged/drove and did that 24 hours/day.

 

[PricklyPete]

The 40 miles might be best case though. We don't know. If your morning trip is in darkness, then you'll be running lights. If it's raining you'll have lights/wipers/AC for defog.

If it's cold out, you'll need heat and the engine may run so it will stay warmed up, etc.

If it's below 32F, I think the Volt will not run on the battery until the battery is warmed up, but there may be a warming circuit with the charge system so that when the car is plugged in, the battery is kept above 32F.

Lots of variables.

You're absolutely right...and I've read a few articles where the engineers stressed this...but I also read that they were shooting for 40 as the "average"...not the upperbound. So people who have perfect conditions may end up with even better than 40 miles...at least when the battery is new. Will definitely be interesting.

 

[PricklyPete]

Latest test drive of the Leaf:

http://www.insideline.com/nissan/leaf/2011/2011-nissan-leaf-first-drive.html

 

[Bignate603]

Thanks for not actually following a word of my post.. Since nobody wants to do what I asked them to do, I'm just going to post the damn pic and get it over with.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The carbon footprint is the same, but the annual fuel cost is still less than half.

 

[StageLeft]

Latest test drive of the Leaf:

http://www.insideline.com/nissan/leaf/2011/2011-nissan-leaf-first-drive.html

Cheers.

In fact, Nissan says the only routine maintenance required at the dealer will be the renewal of brake pads

They'll last forever.

In around five years, however, the Leaf's lithium-ion batteries will only take around 80 percent of their original charge, so you might feel inclined to change them, not least because the replacements will almost certainly have far greater range than the old ones even when they were new. Indeed Nissan says it has targeted a cruising range of 300-350 miles for the Leaf, though the company admits the technology that will achieve it does not currently exist.

And won't exist in 5 years, either (probably).

Only when it's possible to recharge your Leaf with another hundred miles of power in the time it takes to knock back a coffee will this car's true potential be unleashed

I don't agree with that. Anyway, that's not going to happen any time soon.

Even in 2050, up to half the cars on our roads will still be powered by internal-combustion engines, Nissan says.

I don't think anybody can predict where technology will be in 40 years, not meaningfully. Frankly all it would take to transition a great portion of new cars now to electric would be a revolution in battery technology. If you could quadruple the capacity of batteries and at the same time drop cost the only reason in the world to own a car with an ICE would be for long trips (and that assumes there's no charging infrastructure). Even 10 years ago batteries sucked balls compared to now.

 

[PricklyPete]

I don't think anybody can predict where technology will be in 40 years, not meaningfully. Frankly all it would take to transition a great portion of new cars now to electric would be a revolution in battery technology. If you could quadruple the capacity of batteries and at the same time drop cost the only reason in the world to own a car with an ICE would be for long trips (and that assumes there's no charging infrastructure). Even 10 years ago batteries sucked balls compared to now.

I agree...predictions like this are pretty meaningless...but I guess company strategists do have to come up with some predictions in order to plan company resources. Regardless, they are proven wrong all the time.

I really like the idea of the Leaf...an relatively affordable full plug in. But It would be really hard to replace as the family "economy" car without an easier way to make long range trips. It certainly would work for some as a second car where the person is always driving less than 100 miles a day. I could definitely see the "anxiety" of getting somewhere if you're car is sitting in traffic in a major city and you're slowly watching your battery drop wondering if you'll make it home.

 

[DietDrThunder]

Some of that recharging will of course be from regen braking, but some will be from gasoline.

A stupid question. Does regenerative braking occur as you remove your foot from the accelerator pedal? Or does it only kick in when you step on the brake pedal?