Why has the mid-east become a backwater.

[Lemon law]

As infohawk says, "Columbus was the one who went to the monarchy seeking funding for the trips. It was a very entrepreneurial endevour and he became wealthy."

Wrong again, infohawk, Columbus died in chains when the Spanish monarch found Columbus over reached and behaved badly by trying to be too greedy in stealing crown property.

But still, Columbus has become a world hero posthumously and so has Queen Isabella who hawked her crown Jewels to finance Columbus. Who remembers King Ferdinand of Spain? But the one right idea Columbus had is that he had to sail well South of Spain before he could catch the West flowing trade winds to go West, and then North of Spain to catch the east flowing trade winds to return home. Not bad for an itinerant Italian Sailor.

 

[Throckmorton]

The Middle East could be considered a branch of Western civilization.

 

[dennilfloss]

Some 4000 to five thousand years ago, the Mid-east was the cutting edge of Western civilization. The garden of Eden was rumored to be in Iraq, and Egypt and Babylonia were the kick as military powers of the day. The libraries of Alexandria held the the cutting edge human knowledge of the day. As mankind begin slowly transitioning away from the stone age to the bronze age to the iron age in that time frame.

There never was a garden of Eden and there sure was no Alexandria 4000-5000 years ago as it was founded ~331BC., hence no Alexandria library during the Bronze Age. BTW, 2000BC puts you smack in the middle of the Bronze age in the Mediterranean region, not at the transition from Stone Age to Bronze Age. Even at 3000BC, you are already in the early Bronze Age.

 

[Infohawk]

There's a lot of reasons that the ME is backwards, and a significant part of that was because that's precisely how we want it. After the Ottoman Empire, England created the mess known as Iraq, and did so with the intention of keeping it primitive. Oil cause us to overthrow a democratically elected leader.

Between the greed of the leaders and our backing their suppression of freedom there wasn't a lot of the latter to be had. Then toss in Islam and that most of what they have is oil (which they don't benefit from) and sand, it's not rocket science to figure out what's what. Yes it involves Europe. Yes it involves the tensions between the US and the then USSR. Yes it involves oil and religion. Yes it involves no real opportunity because of tyranny.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the ME is what it is in large part because that's how we want it. How do you think Egypt is in it's current stage? We made the worlds richest man out of a dictator because it was expedient to us. Same with the Shah, Saddam, and a whole lot of others. Then we have the opportunists who move into the power vacuum as happened in Iran.

People in the ME aren't up to our standards because they never had a chance.

The big problems with your reasoning is that you seem to ignore that much of history happened before the fall of the Ottoman empire. Sorry but you can only blame Europeans for so much. It's not Europe's fault Islam took over the middle-east and stopped technological and cultural development. Even before modern colonialism, Europe was advancing at a faster pace than the middle east. Eventually that disparity allowed colonialism to exist.

 

[Infohawk]

As infohawk says, "Columbus was the one who went to the monarchy seeking funding for the trips. It was a very entrepreneurial endevour and he became wealthy."

Wrong again, infohawk, Columbus died in chains when the Spanish monarch found Columbus over reached and behaved badly by trying to be too greedy in stealing crown property.

Do you really want to dig yourself in deeper, you pathetic fool? I'm still waiting for an explanation for "Cartridge." Did you hear that word on the radio and not understand it? And I'm not the only one that wants to laugh at your explanation of how Egypt beat Europe to the New World.

 

[Infohawk]

The Middle East could be considered a branch of Western civilization.

Not really. The wording of "Western" itself only makes sense if its in contrast to middle-east and far east.

And actually suggesting that middle-eastern civilization is a branch of western civilization is an insult to the middle east. Some of the world's oldest writings and societies are from Mesopotamia. They were not influenced by Europe at all. If anything, it appears the Greeks were heavily influenced by their travels to the Eastern Mediteranean. The Greeks learned writing and adapted their own alphabet. This began the Western tradition which was rediscovered in the Renaissance and is really when the concept of a Western identity took hold. Again this identity was a European one to be contrasted with other parts of the world including the middle-east.

 

[Pulsar]

Face the facts girls and boys, the world is a changing, those that take advantage of the changes can benefit, those that try to resist change will get steamrolled by inevitable changes.

And yet you continue to cling to the idea that Israel's land is not theirs, that the Palestinians should be repatraited and can do no wrong, ad nauseum.

It'd be hilarious if you actually understood what a hippocrite you are. Strike that. Is IS hilarious.

 

[Pulsar]

As infohawk says, "Columbus was the one who went to the monarchy seeking funding for the trips. It was a very entrepreneurial endevour and he became wealthy."

Wrong again, infohawk, Columbus died in chains when the Spanish monarch found Columbus over reached and behaved badly by trying to be too greedy in stealing crown property.

What part of 'he became wealthy' are you struggling with here? Did he say "died wealthy"? No, he did not. Try reading for comprehension next time.

 

[Infohawk]

What part of 'he became wealthy' are you struggling with here? Did he say "died wealthy"? No, he did not. Try reading for comprehension next time.

Not only that but Columbus did not die in prison. He was imprisoned. But he was released. He and his family sued the crown and won in several regards. Much of the testimony given in those suits is important historical information about his discoveries.

So Lemon law is just repeating a myth about Columbus. But I'm glad he brought it up. It reinforces the idea that Columbus (an Italian) was acting in his own interests. And even though Spain was a monarchy it already had a solid level of rule of law and respect for individual rights as is shown by Columbus' release and partial victories in court. Compare this to modern kangaroo courts in the middle-east and we can see why it was Europeans and not middle-easterners that discovered the new world.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The big problems with your reasoning is that you seem to ignore that much of history happened before the fall of the Ottoman empire. Sorry but you can only blame Europeans for so much. It's not Europe's fault Islam took over the middle-east and stopped technological and cultural development. Even before modern colonialism, Europe was advancing at a faster pace than the middle east. Eventually that disparity allowed colonialism to exist.

I didn't blame Europeans for everything, but once we came to modern times (being the early 20th century and later), oil became a motivation for a disorganized ME. Religion and lack of arable land didn't help, and neither did the tribal nomadic culture

 

[dmcowen674]

Face the facts girls and boys, the world is a changing, those that take advantage of the changes can benefit, those that try to resist change will get steamrolled by inevitable changes.

Based on your posts you will be "steamrolled".

 

[matt0611]

Why did the blacks and arabs not enslave the white people?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Why did the blacks and arabs not enslave the white people?

And toffee. What about that?

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Why did the blacks and arabs not enslave the white people?

You never heard of the Barbary Corsairs?

 

[feralkid]

My problem is Ignorance, always has been, always will. Stop denying the obvious.

You shred it, wheat.

 

[feralkid]

Recently watched something that stated that around 1000AD a Muslim Imam made the declaration that Education/Math/Science was evil. It became mainstream and what was a very advanced civilization, declined and lost its' edge.

Next time, change the channel.

 

[Pocatello]

There's a lot of reasons that the ME is backwards, and a significant part of that was because that's precisely how we want it. After the Ottoman Empire, England created the mess known as Iraq, and did so with the intention of keeping it primitive. Oil cause us to overthrow a democratically elected leader.

Between the greed of the leaders and our backing their suppression of freedom there wasn't a lot of the latter to be had. Then toss in Islam and that most of what they have is oil (which they don't benefit from) and sand, it's not rocket science to figure out what's what. Yes it involves Europe. Yes it involves the tensions between the US and the then USSR. Yes it involves oil and religion. Yes it involves no real opportunity because of tyranny.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the ME is what it is in large part because that's how we want it. How do you think Egypt is in it's current stage? We made the worlds richest man out of a dictator because it was expedient to us. Same with the Shah, Saddam, and a whole lot of others. Then we have the opportunists who move into the power vacuum as happened in Iran.

People in the ME aren't up to our standards because they never had a chance.

Most countries in the Middle East don't have oil or very little of it so they cannot enjoy what they don't have. Some countries have oil, like Saudi Arabia. Without oil, most of the Saudis would still be living in tents and riding camels. The U.S has been supporting a dictator like Mubarak and we have a lot of influence and contact with the Egyptian military. But if the U.S had withdrawn its support of the Egyptian ruling military elites, those demonstrators on the streets for the last couple of weeks would been shot. We have very little say in how the Iranian government or the Syrian government treat their protesters, because we don't have a good working relationship with those countries. The Iranian government wasn't afraid of the being cut off from trading ties or military aids from the U.S when it sent thugs on motor bikes after its own people protesting on the streets of Tehran, because there was none to begin with. The Egyptian people have taken a bold step forward in removing their dictator, but the Egyptian military let it happened by not putting the boots down.

 

[crownjules]

Actually, LL isn't far off from current historical theories. At least in the small idea he had in his post about climate change allowing the Roman Empire and the post-Roman European countries to surpass their Muslim adversaries. Evidence shows that the Earth was undergoing a warming period from about 250BC -> 400AD. It allowed for the European realms to produce crops at a much greater rate than normal climate conditions would have allowed. It's this that helped the Christian nations swell (more crops to eat -> better quality of life -> more kids) in population.

If it weren't for that climate change, the Christian nations might never have had the manpower to overcome the technological advantage Muslims had.

 

[Infohawk]

Actually, LL isn't far off from current historical theories.

He didn't make that point. He just rambled and at times sounded like he got close to making that point.

 

[hal2kilo]

The Middle East could be considered a branch of Western civilization.

I was thinking of suggesting that also since civilzation as far as it progressed to the Western world started in that part of the world. The Phonetians (Lebaneese being the decendants of), became wealthy and gained knowledge by trading with that part of the world and then the Greeks built upon these same trading routes.

 

[davmat787]

"What Islam needs is its own renaissance period". I wish I could attribute this quote correctly, forgot where I heard it at the moment, but I think it sums up a very complicated issue. Before Christianity went through a renaissance, free thinking branded you a heretic and possible tortue and death.

 

[Infohawk]

I was thinking of suggesting that also since civilzation as far as it progressed to the Western world started in that part of the world. The Phonetians (Lebaneese being the decendants of), became wealthy and gained knowledge by trading with that part of the world and then the Greeks built upon these same trading routes.

"Phoenicians", not "Phonetians." And and its "Lebanese" not "Lebaneese". I generally do not bother with spelling mistakes but as with Lemon Law your repeated mistakes suggest you really have ever read anything on the subject. If you had you'd recognize the proper spelling. The History Channel doesn't count.

And all humans came out of Africa so why don't we just say that all civilization is African? It's dumb that's why.

 

[hal2kilo]

"Phoenicians", not "Phonetians." And and its "Lebanese" not "Lebaneese". I generally do not bother with spelling mistakes but as with Lemon Law your repeated mistakes suggest you really have ever read anything on the subject. If you had you'd recognize the proper spelling. The History Channel doesn't count.

And all humans came out of Africa so why don't we just say that all civilization is African? It's dumb that's why.

Wow how'd a thunk it. Good spelling equals intelligence. You don't know many engineers then.

In other words you are deflecting.

 

[Infohawk]

Wow how'd a thunk it. Good spelling equals intelligence. You don't know many engineers then.

In other words you are deflecting.

That's not really what I said. You could be smart but you haven't really read much on the subject which is really the only way to learn about it. Again, why not just call everything African civilization?

Also, http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=31237077&postcount=31

 

[hal2kilo]

That's not really what I said. You could be smart but you haven't really read much on the subject which is really the only way to learn about it. Again, why not just call everything African civilization?

Also, http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=31237077&postcount=31

So you are a saying that the Europeans knowledge was acquired by some kind of "imaculate conception" and it was not based on an accumulation of knowledge by civilizations that existed before them, specifically Greece? And while you're denegrating Africa, I guess no knowledge was gained from Alexandria, which some of which may have been some knowledge acquired from Timbuktu?