Why has the K8 been a slow seller ?

caboob

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2000
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The article makes no metion about yields but rather to some struggle with IBM on formulating SOI. If there were yield problems it would be reflected in the retail price. It seems to me that AMD needs to improve its marketing. You have to hand it to Intel marketing and their foothold in the OEM market. They are still making money with that crappy Prescott.

So if Intel starts releasing cheap 65nm CPUs, will we see cheap $50 A64s? WOOT! Bring it on! This should be great news for any AMD fanboy.
 

Sentential

Senior member
Feb 28, 2005
677
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One word describes why A64s have been poor sellers. "Chipsets". A64 chipsets, especially for S939 are horrible. They have many many issues ranging from poor build quality to BIOS buginess. Overally they are very poorly designed unlike Intel.
 

caboob

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2000
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A64 chipsets arent any more buggy than Intels. They are a step up from VIA chipsets. Poor build quality and BIOS bugginess are mobo maker issues for the most part. Certainly, Intel thoroughly validates their chipsets, something that AMD has had a hands-off attitude.

As far as the reason for the A64s being poor sellers because of chipset?!?! Joe Blow on the street knows nothing of chipsets and could care less.
 

dannybin1742

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2002
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So if Intel starts releasing cheap 65nm CPUs, will we see cheap $50 A64s? WOOT! Bring it on! This should be great news for any AMD fanboy.

yeah but that would not be good, they wouldn't be making any money, then they also would not be able to spend more money on R&D for new cpus

also this would suck for me as a share holder in the company
 

TStep

Platinum Member
Feb 16, 2003
2,460
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I didn't switch from P4C to A64 right off because I could not find a satisfactory mobo in the KT800/nf3150 era. nf3 250 bought a few boards I liked, so I tried it out. But no one here on these forums is really the average consumer.

For the average guy or corporation: brand recognition. Intel is the yardstick. Why Coke over Pepsi, McDonalds over BK, etc. AMD doesn't help themselves either as they really do not advertise well.
 

jiffylube1024

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: caboob
A64 chipsets arent any more buggy than Intels. They are a step up from VIA chipsets. Poor build quality and BIOS bugginess are mobo maker issues for the most part. Certainly, Intel thoroughly validates their chipsets, something that AMD has had a hands-off attitude.

As far as the reason for the A64s being poor sellers because of chipset?!?! Joe Blow on the street knows nothing of chipsets and could care less.

I disagree. I'm not saying A64 chipsets are buggy or unstable at all, but there's a much larger pool of well-made rock-stable Intel chipset motherboards than AMD ones; particularly for Socket 478.

Intel themselves makes excellent chipsets which are often used in the best Intel motherboards, whereas IMO the best AMD chipsets are made by a third party: Nvidia.

This isn't good or bad in it'self but Intel is always ready to go with a new chipset to go with a new socket, while Nvidia takes awhile to come out with a mature chipset for AMD.


I don't think the issue with slow sales for the K8 is only due to chipsets, however. Personally I feel the difference in performance between older/other CPU's P4 C/E and Athlon64 are that monumental. Even AthlonXP is a decent performer to this day.

I expect AMD's sales to pick up once dualcore becomes affordable (which looks to be mid to late 2006), as they will once again have the superior CPU technology plus dualcore will (eventually) be a big step up in performance.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
22,125
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Intel will own the cpu market for a long time to come. Most people don't know squat about computers, and the little they do know is hearsay. What everyone does know is that almost everyone uses Intel cpu's, so thats what they buy. Most people think that whatever is most popular is the best, so Intel gets to run on momentum.
AMD got a boost when HP started using them, but what they really need is Dell to start offering AMD cpu's. And they need some advertising, I know IT pro's who still think AMD just copys whatever Intel does, and they also think Intel CPU's are faster than AMD.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
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I think the main reason is that there's absolutely no reason your Aunt Bertha needs a powerful CPU.

I just got done working on a 1.3 GHz Tutalin (sp?) Celeron HP system with 256 MB of RAM and the owner commented on how fast it still is after 3 years now that all the spyware and crap has been removed.

I use a 366 MHz Pentium 2 laptop with 256 MB of RAM for web browsing and e-mail and chatting and listening to music when I don't feel like sitting in front of my desktop. It does it all with ease.

Gaming is driving the industry right now. The main reason people buy an Athlon-64 is because they need the power for games. Have you ever had a customer or co-worker say "damn, I wish Excel would open faster" or "I'm sick of waiting endless nanoseconds for Word to find my next spelling error."
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
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Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere in that article where he said that K8 is 50% of F30's capacity. Even if he did say that in another article, it's purly speculation. AMD would never let such a statistic out. At any rate...
They haven't been able to deliver the product, apparently because at AMD, SOI really stands for Slave Of IBM. From the little we know, it seems like they've been largely waiting around for IBM to (reluctantly) give them the formulas for good SOI sauce, then struggling to make it work.
This paragraph makes no sense... AMD doesn't make SOI wafers, they buy the wafers from a wafer manufacturer (an example might be Soitec). As does IBM, for that matter.
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
AMD has lost momentum, last year was AMD best chance to score with Dell, but failed to capitalize. MS much delayed Windows XP 64 also hurt. AMD other business in the flash memory market isn't doing too well, so I've heard.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,834
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Meh, bagging on the K8 chipsets makes no sense. All the VIA, Nvidia, and even SiS chipsets for the K8 are far superior to the junky Super 7 chipsets in days of yore. Hell, they're better than the KT133a. Remember that wonderful VIA southbridge? Hoo ha.

Unless you're overclocking or you got bad board, the K8 boards have all been pretty solid. Even the cheap ones, like that ASRock board based on the SiS755, will do you right.

The problem the k8 has had, in my opinion, is that the k7 did so well. Who wants to upgrade to an Athlon64 when you've already got an AthlonXP that can still do the job?
 

housecat

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
1,426
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Originally posted by: caboob
The article makes no metion about yields but rather to some struggle with IBM on formulating SOI. If there were yield problems it would be reflected in the retail price. It seems to me that AMD needs to improve its marketing. You have to hand it to Intel marketing and their foothold in the OEM market. They are still making money with that crappy Prescott.

So if Intel starts releasing cheap 65nm CPUs, will we see cheap $50 A64s? WOOT! Bring it on! This should be great news for any AMD fanboy.

you mean the braindead fanboy?

lol i couldnt resist replying to this because Omid over at Toms said a long time ago in an editorial that the death of AMD would be at the hands of its fanboys.

and it indeed appears true.. all you guys want are cheap processors.. you arent share holders.. you want to gain a cheap, fast CPU and not pay a dime..

too bad that way AMD will never be able to compete in the long term
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
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Don't ever take anything overclockers says about AMD with any kind of value. That guy Ed Stroligo has been very anti-amd in his posts about the company.
 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,419
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Originally posted by: classy
Don't ever take anything overclockers says about AMD with any kind of value. That guy Ed Stroligo has been very anti-amd in his posts about the company.

LOL dont take that line, I agree in a way but, you'll get screamed at for saying that on this board, theres a few ed lovers here.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
31,908
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Typical Ed, can't see the forest because there are too many trees in his way. Opteron has given AMD their first real foothold in the more lucrative workstation&server market, that is a big win for them in several ways. Many of those Opterons are coupled with AMD 8000 series chipsets too. Certainly, their desktop market share hasn't changed much the last few years, but A64 has likely created better profit margins than the XP line ever did. The results have been AMD strung together some profitable quarters and improved their financial health. Yet, while they are doing better than ever both financially and in technology leadership, Ed is shoveling dirt on them :thumbsdown:

No, this fight will be a battle of the beancounters, who can make this duallies cheaply, quickly, and the results will be shown in the profit-and-loss statements, not the benchmarks.
I think Ed is right about this part in a sense. Intc can afford to bleed cash to try to force AMD to maintain a basic pricing parity, and if successful would easily win a war of attrition. Hector understands that though, and has made it very clear that AMD will no longer use the strategy of competing against Intel directly. Instead, he wants to focus on AMD and managing its affairs intelligently and effciently very much like the microprocessors they make :) Thus far it seems to be working, targeting a more profitable market segment and increasing the profitability of existing ones with products that lead in performance and features.

I don't believe they had/have the capability or resources to leverage Intc's series of SNAFUs to any good advantage either, so concentrating on doing whatever they do as well as possible and looking to their own concerns may have been the only viable alternative. Intel had to redraw their roadmap, canceling their 4ghz CPU, going from mhz to series and model numbers. They had to spin 64bit and HyperTransport as being premature on one account, the wrong path for them on the other, and were in essence forced to implement 64 bit well before they previously implied they woud, and now are efforting to do a version of HyperTransport Intel style. Had AMD the resources necessary they could have capitalized on these issues massively by launching a propaganda campaign and rubbing their noses in it much the way a politician does during a hotly contested campaign. The quote in clarkey's sig is a perfect example of one of the many Intc frontmen uttered that could have been used to great effect.
 
Nov 11, 2004
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Mmm. I'd personally say that they sell quite well. I haven't personally sold or built a new Intel based system yet. Everyone wants AMD. :)
 

Minotar

Member
Aug 30, 2004
147
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First, of all, everyone please get off the intel dominating forever attitude. Yes, it is going to take some time for AMD to start overtaking Intel, but it WILL happen. There is always a delay when the underdog releases better technology than the big dog, when it comes to market shift, and the current AMD/Intel war is no different. AMD is already starting to make significant dents in the market. I was just at Best Buy the other day and saw a ton of AMD systems for sale. These are the systems the casual buyer will be buying. And remember, all the people that bought intel's recently are going to be really PO'ed when they find out they can't go to Windows 64... It might not happen tomorrow, but there are going to be a ton or buyers a year from now that will be regretting their recent Intel decision when they *need* to upgrade to Win64. It is going to happen, it will just take some time. Just like when 3dfx fell through after they refused 32bit color, Intel may just fall flat on their face for refusing 64bit. The more time passes, the worse it will get for Intel. Just wait and see everyone, Intel is in for some surprises.

As far as K8 sales. It is slow because of Dell, pure and simple. But, Dell is in for a bigger surprise than Intel. Just look at their ratings on reseller ratings, and see for yourself. Dell is going down. I am hearing many people as of late regret their Dell buying decisions. Most of what I hear has to do with 3rd party foreign tech support and poor upgradeability. The market is shifting. Consumers are stupid until they get burnt, and those that get burnt by Intel will most likely be Dell owners, so it will kill two birds with one stone:) I just love inviting Dell owners over to my house... It is great to hear them say, "OMG, that adobe file opened instantly?!... Why is your computer so much faster than mine?" AMD baby, AMD!!!!!!
 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,419
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Thanks for the nod DAPUNISHER, at least someone reads it. I wanted to raise the issues of Intel's behaviour, and how they playing the "Me too" card.

Firstly before anyone points the finger and proclaims that I am an German AMD Nazi fanboy ( I?m not, I?m English and ?fair minded?) think again. I own a 2.8C mainly because it multitasks far better then my AMD rig.

Mhz matter : Yes, AMD?s number scheme was a scheme in there view to cover up for that fact that the K7 design could not clock up as quick or as far as the netburst designs. In several interviews Intel ppl claim Mhz is all that matters and ?Speed demon? CPU?s are far better then ?Brains? CPU?s ( Mhz over High IPC). My sig is taken from an interview in 2003 where an Intel man is asked about netburst and where its heading?

64 bit: In intel?s view, you didn?t need it, you know what, I agree, but then they quickly went ? Yeah me too?. Panic tactics? Or maybe ? Aw just to se sure we?ve got the bases covered? .

Hypertransport : Oh all of a sudden a point to point is needed, fair enough.

Memory controllers : Yes they are going to start to implement them in future cores, how do I know this, well a worker in the D12 fab told me (BTW if any one you would like to request the transcripts of our conversations do let me know, saved them for a bit of fun)


Dual Core : They never intended to go to dual core?.Really. Last minute ? Oh Prescott?s dropped us in it?. What some of you don?t understand is that Intel had Tejas, Nehalem, and I forget the other project waiting in the wings for the desktop and serve space until 2007. Nehalem was ment for 2005 and for a start, yes a starting speed of 10.25 Ghz. When netburst was scraped , they paniced and said we?ll do what IBM, AMD are going to do. They never ever wanted to go dual core that early. Seeing them @ IDF hearing them talk as if they had it in all in the bag the whole times is B.S. For those who don?t agree with me then why has they slapped two Prescott cores together and called a ?huge step forward?. How efficient and??..Clever that was of them. I thought the point of dual cores was efficiency, no more need for high Mhz.

AMD on the overhand designed the K8 with dual core in mind from day one and was mentioned in 2001. Back in the days when all you heard from Intel is ? Mhz this, Mhz that, speed matters?. AMD quietly got on with it, kept its mouth shut which I think personally is half there problem and went about business like it was nothing.

Yes, there first attempt will nothing more then two Venice?s with some modification to the memory controller and a few more registers etc. But we?re talking about AMD here, they don?t have billions in the bank, they can?t set up a separate design team and start a new core from scratch for the first round of dual cores.

And might I say, what a great core to do it with. Beats Prescott so that?s adequate enough.

And if parelisim is what there after with dual cores, why the hell have they taken HT away from it? I know they need the EE to have a selling point over the regular chips but really ? £1000+ . Why don?t they just add more cache and maybe a speed bump ? make HT more accessible to mainstream users. But then again, 2 extra logical cores may not provided that big a boost over a normal dual core non HT Smithfield, who knows.


On that note im going to watch top gear, laterz
 

justly

Banned
Jul 25, 2003
493
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0
"And if parelisim is what there after with dual cores, why the hell have they taken HT away from it?"

For one simple reason, performance... if HT where enabled in duel core then two demanding apps could be running on the same core using different virtual processors (basically the same performance they had with single core + HT). By disabling HT it forces the threads to be split between actual cores, thus eliminating the posibility that a duel core would have the same performance as a single core with HT.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
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Originally posted by: justly
"And if parelisim is what there after with dual cores, why the hell have they taken HT away from it?"

For one simple reason, performance... if HT where enabled in duel core then two demanding apps could be running on the same core using different virtual processors (basically the same performance they had with single core + HT). By disabling HT it forces the threads to be split between actual cores, thus eliminating the posibility that a duel core would have the same performance as a single core with HT.

What a load of horse crap, lol.
 

justly

Banned
Jul 25, 2003
493
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Originally posted by: Jeff7181


What a load of horse crap, lol.

Dont blame the messenger :)

I'm only trying to explain it the way I remember reading it. Its up to the individual to decide if its plausible.
 

stratman

Senior member
Oct 19, 2004
335
0
0
From TFA:

Consider this: Hammer is the best CPU out there. Up to now, by historical measurements, desktop Hammers have been a sales failure. It usually takes six-nine months for a next-generation CPU to become the major unit seller for the company. Desktop Hammers have been around eighteen months, and won't manage that for another three months.

What is he talking about? Clawhammer cored A64s? All A64 proc's? Since when are all A64 proc's called Hammers?

Edit: Looked into Ed's reference to "Hammers".
Clawhammer cored A64s arent the best CPU out there (or even the best A64 CPU out there), and he would be a fool to only compare one A64 core when totalling their sales.

Googling :: AMD, Hammers :: brings up first an article comparing the all the 2.4ghz A64 cores that end in 'hammer', second an article titled "Prudence hammers AMD", and third and forth articles by Ed.

I think Ed is ignorant on this issue, and thinks all A64 procs are called Hammers. He shouldn't be writing on technology.

Edit2: I don't think AMD is going to die any time soon, or did poorly in 2004:
"2004 sales up 42 percent to all-time high of $5.0 billion; microprocessor sales grew 29 percent"
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,334
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stratman:

Uhh, since the very beginning of the A64, before they were called A64s? There was the Clawhammer, and there was the Sledgehammer. I don't get what you're saying.

General:

Very suckass for AMD. Wasted fab capability must be the second most expensive thing in the world. Like veryone already said many times in this thread, AMD has never captivated the mainstream, Dellcow market. Only the home-brew enthusiast types like here on Anand (and we know A64 has been selling very well to the Anand crowd). Unfortunately, Dellcow > homebrew.