Why Explore Ancient Space???

[OulOat]

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

You are using today's knowldge. A) He didn't know for a fact that the world was round, only that he thought so. B) I don't know about you, but spending months in completely uncharted and unfamiliar territory would be a long time to anyone.

Also, I don't get what you are griping over. In the first paragraph you appear to feel that instruments such as the Hubble space telescope is a waste of money, but in the second paragraph you change it to deep space exploration robots. Which one is it?

I never said anything about robots. Just to reintereate my point, "it just seems so pointless to divert precious monies into exploring parts of space we will never be able to reap any direct benefit from. Instead of working on moving out from our own planet in to the surrounding space and learning more and more about the solar system we live in and CAN reap direct benefits from."

Exploring implies robots. But anyway, I see now that you are talking about Hubble. Hubble doesn't go anywhere and plant a flag, it just hangs around and watches history unfold. It's job is that of a historian, not of an explorer. You might want to read up on the main objectives of the Hubble Space Telescope.

The Announcement of Opportunity for The Hubble Space Telescope, dated March 1977, cites that the main scientific objectives for Hubble are to determine:

A. The constitution, physical characteristics, and dynamics of celestial bodies.

B. The nature of processes which occur in the extreme physical conditions existing in and between astronomical objects.

C. The history and evolution of the universe.

D. Whether the laws of nature are universal in the space-time continuum.

As you can see, nowhere does it mention exploring. You may not feel these are important goals, but physicists and other scientists may find the information collected useful, since one day it may help us build bigger, faster space vehicles. On another note, you wanted to know how water got on Mars in a previous post. Well, some scientist spectate that water may have been brought along by comets that crashed into the red planet. And it was partly through images taken by Hubble that they know that some comets contain frozen water. So before you go assuming something like Hubble is useless, you should have read up on what we have learned from it first.

As far as columbus is concerned my argument is a distance and time thing. If we had the ability to travel to another solar system with in our lifespan then fine lets go for it. other wise lets get our selves established so we can develop the base line for doing this.

You are using current knowledge again. Columbus had no idea how long the trip was going to take, yet he decided to venture forward. Back then, it was a foolish decision to many sceptics, but now we praise his actions and wisdom.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: BannedTroll

Originally posted by: Chaotic42
Because history repeats itself.

Everywhere.

I said that already but he didn't feel I was being respectful.

Well, screw it then. I don't understand the confusion.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: BannedTroll
OK seriously. We explore deep space for two reasons. Our desire to understand where we came from and to ensure the survival of the human race. Other than terraforming any efforts within our solar system would be pointless.

From my viewpoint you just contradicted yourself there by saying, "ensure the survival of the human race", and then saying, "any efforts within our solar system would be pointless." I say that by colonizing other planets we can save our species from destruction if something catastrophic were to happen to the earth. Like say the asteroid that was "supposed" to hit the earth in 2029 but later was called off as not mathmatically possible.

The idea behind it all (besides finding the answer to the beginning) is to get to other galaxies suitable for habitation.

We cant get to other galaxies unless we build out into our current one. Unless we develope the technologies to develop and explore our current solar system what ever makes you think we will be able to handle a solar system that is 100's if not 1000's of years away in travel time.

If we had not been exploring deep space we wouldn't even know there were other planets. Understanding the movements of the matter in the grand scheme of space is important to our survival as a race. Although we have a while before the sun starts with massive ejections or we collide with Andromeda the time we have before an ELE is unknown. With only one planet and a couple of moons with the possibility of terraforming our best bet is outside the solar system entirely.

The way I see it our solar system presents us with the perfect mix of planets to "flex our muscles" on when it comes to colonizing earthlike environments or even the most extreme environments. If we can overcome the technological difficulties to the problems presented here, such as irradiated, non-breathable atmosphere, low G environments, etc... in our own solar system then we can do the same on other planets that are similar in these aspects. After all the more you are capable of doing the more you can do.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: BannedTroll

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

Originally posted by: gutharius
If these benefits exist on other planets in outher solar systems they are far from our technological abilities to experience. Sure it is ok to know these places of interest exist but really lets learn more about our own system so we can take that knowlege and move outwards to the rest of our universe.

How are we going to improve our technical abitility if we don't stress out our current technology? It's like saying we should not waste any money exploring quarks just because we do not have any current technology that is able to detect something that small.

We test our technology by building out into our own solar system. By accomplishing ways of moving and mining million ton asteroids. By accomplishing ways the get peope from one planet to another before the person dies from old age, or heck even has time to ask the phrase "Are we there yet?" By accomplishing ways to communicate via interplanetarily in a meaningful and responsive way. We need not explore the farthest and least directly beneficial parts of the universe just to "test our technology" we can do both right here in our own solar system and reap 100% of the benefits.

I don't know if you've done the math yet but the technology to roam about our own solar system is not going to get us to others.

I did the math and that is what started this whole discussion. By me determining that the nearest galaxy is over 169,000 years away at the speed of light. Not that there is much math involved in that.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42
Because history repeats itself.

Everywhere.

Insightful, yes. Really even if there were intelligent life else where. Would we really be able to accomplish anything more because of this? I say no. Unless we move out into space and test out technological wit per say we will never have the abilities to ever make contact with any other civilization. I am assuming this is the point of your post, but like I said, insightful, yes. Explainitory, moderatly.

 

[judasmachine]

we still have all of the Milky Way to explore. some of those stars are only between 8ly and 16,000ly away. if we can ever develop faster than light travel some of these show very promising possibilites. 8ly away is not all that unfeasible, unless we blow ourselves up in the next several centuries. i do agree our solar system should be our first priority as it will be a very long time if at all we develop any faster than light travel.

all that being said, the reason we look at the ancient images is to see where we come from. some of these images are our distant past.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: BannedTroll

Originally posted by: Chaotic42
Because history repeats itself.

Everywhere.

I said that already but he didn't feel I was being respectful.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T, sock it to me!

 

[BannedTroll]

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: BannedTroll

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

Originally posted by: gutharius
If these benefits exist on other planets in outher solar systems they are far from our technological abilities to experience. Sure it is ok to know these places of interest exist but really lets learn more about our own system so we can take that knowlege and move outwards to the rest of our universe.

How are we going to improve our technical abitility if we don't stress out our current technology? It's like saying we should not waste any money exploring quarks just because we do not have any current technology that is able to detect something that small.

We test our technology by building out into our own solar system. By accomplishing ways of moving and mining million ton asteroids. By accomplishing ways the get peope from one planet to another before the person dies from old age, or heck even has time to ask the phrase "Are we there yet?" By accomplishing ways to communicate via interplanetarily in a meaningful and responsive way. We need not explore the farthest and least directly beneficial parts of the universe just to "test our technology" we can do both right here in our own solar system and reap 100% of the benefits.

I don't know if you've done the math yet but the technology to roam about our own solar system is not going to get us to others.

I did the math and that is what started this whole discussion. By me determining that the nearest galaxy is over 169,000 years away at the speed of light. Not that there is much math involved in that.

Actually I don't think you get it. In this case we need to invent the airplane before the hot air balloon (or at least at the same time) in order to do any real good.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: gutharius
Insightful, yes. Really even if there were intelligent life else where. Would we really be able to accomplish anything more because of this? I say no. Unless we move out into space and test out technological wit per say we will never have the abilities to ever make contact with any other civilization. I am assuming this is the point of your post, but like I said, insightful, yes. Explainitory, moderatly.

Well, I was talking about physical processes. Watching stars explode gives us insight into our own sun's fate. Watching solar systems form allows us to understand how ours formed.

Things like this allow us to have a fuller picture of our solar system.

 

[OulOat]

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

Originally posted by: gutharius
If these benefits exist on other planets in outher solar systems they are far from our technological abilities to experience. Sure it is ok to know these places of interest exist but really lets learn more about our own system so we can take that knowlege and move outwards to the rest of our universe.

How are we going to improve our technical abitility if we don't stress out our current technology? It's like saying we should not waste any money exploring quarks just because we do not have any current technology that is able to detect something that small.

We test our technology by building out into our own solar system. By accomplishing ways of moving and mining million ton asteroids. By accomplishing ways the get peope from one planet to another before the person dies from old age, or heck even has time to ask the phrase "Are we there yet?" By accomplishing ways to communicate via interplanetarily in a meaningful and responsive way. We need not explore the farthest and least directly beneficial parts of the universe just to "test our technology" we can do both right here in our own solar system and reap 100% of the benefits.

Again, you are confusing. In a previous post, you made it clear you aren't talking about deep space exploration robots. But now you are making it sound like "why should we build deep space exploration robots when we can test robots out here." AFAIK, we haven't made any deep space exploration spacecrafts yet. The only reason NASA sent spacecraft like Voyager I and II out into the depths of space was that they already completed their mission, and NASA, being economical, decided to test what these spacecrafts can still do. So yeah, we are not spending any money on deep space spacecrafts, so the only thing looking out into space is Hubble, and I already cover that in a previous post.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: OulOat

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

You are using today's knowldge. A) He didn't know for a fact that the world was round, only that he thought so. B) I don't know about you, but spending months in completely uncharted and unfamiliar territory would be a long time to anyone.

Also, I don't get what you are griping over. In the first paragraph you appear to feel that instruments such as the Hubble space telescope is a waste of money, but in the second paragraph you change it to deep space exploration robots. Which one is it?

I never said anything about robots. Just to reintereate my point, "it just seems so pointless to divert precious monies into exploring parts of space we will never be able to reap any direct benefit from. Instead of working on moving out from our own planet in to the surrounding space and learning more and more about the solar system we live in and CAN reap direct benefits from."

Exploring implies robots. But anyway, I see now that you are talking about Hubble. Hubble doesn't go anywhere and plant a flag, it just hangs around and watches history unfold. It's job is that of a historian, not of an explorer. You might want to read up on the main objectives of the Hubble Space Telescope.

The Announcement of Opportunity for The Hubble Space Telescope, dated March 1977, cites that the main scientific objectives for Hubble are to determine:

A. The constitution, physical characteristics, and dynamics of celestial bodies.

B. The nature of processes which occur in the extreme physical conditions existing in and between astronomical objects.

C. The history and evolution of the universe.

D. Whether the laws of nature are universal in the space-time continuum.

As you can see, nowhere does it mention exploring. You may not feel these are important goals, but physicists and other scientists may find the information collected useful, since one day it may help us build bigger, faster space vehicles. On another note, you wanted to know how water got on Mars in a previous post. Well, some scientist spectate that water may have been brought along by comets that crashed into the red planet. And it was partly through images taken by Hubble that they know that some comets contain frozen water. So before you go assuming something like Hubble is useless, you should have read up on what we have learned from it first.

As far as columbus is concerned my argument is a distance and time thing. If we had the ability to travel to another solar system with in our lifespan then fine lets go for it. other wise lets get our selves established so we can develop the base line for doing this.

You are using current knowledge again. Columbus had no idea how long the trip was going to take, yet he decided to venture forward. Back then, it was a foolish decision to many sceptics, but now we praise his actions and wisdom.

1) I see robots as a half @ssed attempt at doing what we ourselves should be doing in person. Hence, for me, Explored != Robots.

2) As far as Columbus is concerned I believe we should follow in his suit and take the next step into space and work on that. Work on the attainable rather than what is billions of years away. It is great to know what HAS happened in the past but those that are constantly looking to the past are putting themselves at risk of having the future throw a frying pan at the back of their head without them ever seeing it coming. That is my worry anyways, that we are focusing too much on what has happened and are not focusing on what should happen with us here at home in our own solar system.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
we still have all of the Milky Way to explore. some of those stars are only between 8ly and 16,000ly away. if we can ever develop faster than light travel some of these show very promising possibilites. 8ly away is not all that unfeasible, unless we blow ourselves up in the next several centuries. i do agree our solar system should be our first priority as it will be a very long time if at all we develop any faster than light travel.

all that being said, the reason we look at the ancient images is to see where we come from. some of these images are our distant past.

True true, 8ly is far better than 1000ly. But there is that word again "if" i say this "if" will not happen unless we first cut our teeth on conquering the unique challenges presented here in our own solar system. I wonder if we should let go of trying to find out where we came from and instead accept, "We are here.", and move on to, "Where do we go now?"

 

[BannedTroll]

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

You are using today's knowldge. A) He didn't know for a fact that the world was round, only that he thought so. B) I don't know about you, but spending months in completely uncharted and unfamiliar territory would be a long time to anyone.

Also, I don't get what you are griping over. In the first paragraph you appear to feel that instruments such as the Hubble space telescope is a waste of money, but in the second paragraph you change it to deep space exploration robots. Which one is it?

I never said anything about robots. Just to reintereate my point, "it just seems so pointless to divert precious monies into exploring parts of space we will never be able to reap any direct benefit from. Instead of working on moving out from our own planet in to the surrounding space and learning more and more about the solar system we live in and CAN reap direct benefits from."

Exploring implies robots. But anyway, I see now that you are talking about Hubble. Hubble doesn't go anywhere and plant a flag, it just hangs around and watches history unfold. It's job is that of a historian, not of an explorer. You might want to read up on the main objectives of the Hubble Space Telescope.

The Announcement of Opportunity for The Hubble Space Telescope, dated March 1977, cites that the main scientific objectives for Hubble are to determine:

A. The constitution, physical characteristics, and dynamics of celestial bodies.

B. The nature of processes which occur in the extreme physical conditions existing in and between astronomical objects.

C. The history and evolution of the universe.

D. Whether the laws of nature are universal in the space-time continuum.

As you can see, nowhere does it mention exploring. You may not feel these are important goals, but physicists and other scientists may find the information collected useful, since one day it may help us build bigger, faster space vehicles. On another note, you wanted to know how water got on Mars in a previous post. Well, some scientist spectate that water may have been brought along by comets that crashed into the red planet. And it was partly through images taken by Hubble that they know that some comets contain frozen water. So before you go assuming something like Hubble is useless, you should have read up on what we have learned from it first.

As far as columbus is concerned my argument is a distance and time thing. If we had the ability to travel to another solar system with in our lifespan then fine lets go for it. other wise lets get our selves established so we can develop the base line for doing this.

You are using current knowledge again. Columbus had no idea how long the trip was going to take, yet he decided to venture forward. Back then, it was a foolish decision to many sceptics, but now we praise his actions and wisdom.

1) I see robots as a half @ssed attempt at doing what we ourselves should be doing in person. Hence, for me, Explored != Robots.

2) As far as Columbus is concerned I believe we should follow in his suit and take the next step into space and work on that. Work on the attainable rather than what is billions of years away. It is great to know what HAS happened in the past but those that are constantly looking to the past are putting themselves at risk of having the future throw a frying pan at the back of their head without them ever seeing it coming. That is my worry anyways, that we are focusing too much on what has happened and are not focusing on what should happen with us here at home in our own solar system.

Again you assume that the next step in space is another trip to the moon or a manned mission to Mars. Discoveries are not necassarily on a progressive timeline.


Also a current manne mission to mars would serve no purpose. Would you like them to tell you what it smelled like or how it felt through their protective suits? Do you gain any personal knowledge through the astronauts first hand experience on the moon?

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: BannedTroll

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: BannedTroll

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

Originally posted by: gutharius
If these benefits exist on other planets in outher solar systems they are far from our technological abilities to experience. Sure it is ok to know these places of interest exist but really lets learn more about our own system so we can take that knowlege and move outwards to the rest of our universe.

How are we going to improve our technical abitility if we don't stress out our current technology? It's like saying we should not waste any money exploring quarks just because we do not have any current technology that is able to detect something that small.

We test our technology by building out into our own solar system. By accomplishing ways of moving and mining million ton asteroids. By accomplishing ways the get peope from one planet to another before the person dies from old age, or heck even has time to ask the phrase "Are we there yet?" By accomplishing ways to communicate via interplanetarily in a meaningful and responsive way. We need not explore the farthest and least directly beneficial parts of the universe just to "test our technology" we can do both right here in our own solar system and reap 100% of the benefits.

I don't know if you've done the math yet but the technology to roam about our own solar system is not going to get us to others.

I did the math and that is what started this whole discussion. By me determining that the nearest galaxy is over 169,000 years away at the speed of light. Not that there is much math involved in that.

Actually I don't think you get it. In this case we need to invent the airplane before the hot air balloon (or at least at the same time) in order to do any real good.

That is my point tho, as I see it exploring and colonizing our solar system would be the hot air ballon. Going beyond that would be the first airplane. Landing on a planet on another syolar system would be akin to the first jet airplane and so on... Did I misspeak to cause some confusion with you? My apologies if so.

 

[shimsham]

youre thinking too practically. as a species, we have to think past the horizon. we can look at the hill all day, and we know its a hill, thus theres little motivation to trek there. its whats over that hill that actually motivates us to get there causing us to utilize the tools we have.

we need the great beyond and the unknown to help motivate us to develop what can benefit us directly.

plus, im sure big flashy words about the edge of the universe go a lot further when asking for funding than our solar system that weve become pretty familiar with and complacent about. as far as the public and law makers who approve the budgets go, anyway.

 

[BannedTroll]

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: BannedTroll

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: BannedTroll

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

Originally posted by: gutharius
If these benefits exist on other planets in outher solar systems they are far from our technological abilities to experience. Sure it is ok to know these places of interest exist but really lets learn more about our own system so we can take that knowlege and move outwards to the rest of our universe.

How are we going to improve our technical abitility if we don't stress out our current technology? It's like saying we should not waste any money exploring quarks just because we do not have any current technology that is able to detect something that small.

We test our technology by building out into our own solar system. By accomplishing ways of moving and mining million ton asteroids. By accomplishing ways the get peope from one planet to another before the person dies from old age, or heck even has time to ask the phrase "Are we there yet?" By accomplishing ways to communicate via interplanetarily in a meaningful and responsive way. We need not explore the farthest and least directly beneficial parts of the universe just to "test our technology" we can do both right here in our own solar system and reap 100% of the benefits.

I don't know if you've done the math yet but the technology to roam about our own solar system is not going to get us to others.

I did the math and that is what started this whole discussion. By me determining that the nearest galaxy is over 169,000 years away at the speed of light. Not that there is much math involved in that.

Actually I don't think you get it. In this case we need to invent the airplane before the hot air balloon (or at least at the same time) in order to do any real good.

That is my point tho, as I see it exploring and colonizing our solar system would be the hot air ballon. Going beyond that would be the first airplane. Landing on a planet on another syolar system would be akin to the first jet airplane and so on... Did I misspeak to cause some confusion with you? My apologies if so.

We cross posted. Again discovery does not necassarily take a progressive path. You are saying why explore deep space because we haven't invented the hot air balloon yet even though it provides the potentially greater benefit.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: gutharius
Insightful, yes. Really even if there were intelligent life else where. Would we really be able to accomplish anything more because of this? I say no. Unless we move out into space and test out technological wit per say we will never have the abilities to ever make contact with any other civilization. I am assuming this is the point of your post, but like I said, insightful, yes. Explainitory, moderatly.

Well, I was talking about physical processes. Watching stars explode gives us insight into our own sun's fate. Watching solar systems form allows us to understand how ours formed.

Things like this allow us to have a fuller picture of our solar system.

I know that we as humans learn best by experienceing, by hearing, seeing and DOING. We have been hearing and seeing these things, but we have not been doing the physical exploration part that rewards us so much more knowledge about our universe. Far more so, I say than what we are doing at present.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: judasmachine
we still have all of the Milky Way to explore. some of those stars are only between 8ly and 16,000ly away. if we can ever develop faster than light travel some of these show very promising possibilites. 8ly away is not all that unfeasible, unless we blow ourselves up in the next several centuries. i do agree our solar system should be our first priority as it will be a very long time if at all we develop any faster than light travel.

all that being said, the reason we look at the ancient images is to see where we come from. some of these images are our distant past.

True true, 8ly is far better than 1000ly. But there is that word again "if" i say this "if" will not happen unless we first cut our teeth on conquering the unique challenges presented here in our own solar system. I wonder if we should let go of trying to find out where we came from and instead accept, "We are here.", and move on to, "Where do we go now?"

Can't really argue with that. Yes we have ALOT to learn before we go any further. Right now even the closest planets are still just out of actual human touch. When I see another man on the moon, I will believe it's time to go to Mars. When I see a man on Mars, I will believe it is time to rape and pilliage the asteroid belt. Alpha Centauri is a very distant dream right now. But at least we are gathering information for the day we can really reach out that far.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: OulOat

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

Originally posted by: gutharius
If these benefits exist on other planets in outher solar systems they are far from our technological abilities to experience. Sure it is ok to know these places of interest exist but really lets learn more about our own system so we can take that knowlege and move outwards to the rest of our universe.

How are we going to improve our technical abitility if we don't stress out our current technology? It's like saying we should not waste any money exploring quarks just because we do not have any current technology that is able to detect something that small.

We test our technology by building out into our own solar system. By accomplishing ways of moving and mining million ton asteroids. By accomplishing ways the get peope from one planet to another before the person dies from old age, or heck even has time to ask the phrase "Are we there yet?" By accomplishing ways to communicate via interplanetarily in a meaningful and responsive way. We need not explore the farthest and least directly beneficial parts of the universe just to "test our technology" we can do both right here in our own solar system and reap 100% of the benefits.

Again, you are confusing. In a previous post, you made it clear you aren't talking about deep space exploration robots. But now you are making it sound like "why should we build deep space exploration robots when we can test robots out here." AFAIK, we haven't made any deep space exploration spacecrafts yet. The only reason NASA sent spacecraft like Voyager I and II out into the depths of space was that they already completed their mission, and NASA, being economical, decided to test what these spacecrafts can still do. So yeah, we are not spending any money on deep space spacecrafts, so the only thing looking out into space is Hubble, and I already cover that in a previous post.

Nothing in this:

"We test our technology by building out into our own solar system. By accomplishing ways of moving and mining million ton asteroids. By accomplishing ways the get people from one planet to another before the person dies from old age, or heck even has time to ask the phrase "Are we there yet?" By accomplishing ways to communicate interplanetarily in a meaningful and responsive way. We need not explore the farthest and least directly beneficial parts of the universe just to "test our technology" we can do both right here in our own solar system and reap 100% of the benefits.[/"

Said anything about robots, it said people.

Using robots is not a test of our technology, it is a way to keep us rooted here on one planet instead of taking root in our solar system as a species. And when I say technology I am not saying robots. I am using the phrase technology as a referrence to something which enables us to do more beyond our current natural physical abilities, as humans not robots.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: BannedTroll

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

You are using today's knowldge. A) He didn't know for a fact that the world was round, only that he thought so. B) I don't know about you, but spending months in completely uncharted and unfamiliar territory would be a long time to anyone.

Also, I don't get what you are griping over. In the first paragraph you appear to feel that instruments such as the Hubble space telescope is a waste of money, but in the second paragraph you change it to deep space exploration robots. Which one is it?

I never said anything about robots. Just to reintereate my point, "it just seems so pointless to divert precious monies into exploring parts of space we will never be able to reap any direct benefit from. Instead of working on moving out from our own planet in to the surrounding space and learning more and more about the solar system we live in and CAN reap direct benefits from."

Exploring implies robots. But anyway, I see now that you are talking about Hubble. Hubble doesn't go anywhere and plant a flag, it just hangs around and watches history unfold. It's job is that of a historian, not of an explorer. You might want to read up on the main objectives of the Hubble Space Telescope.

The Announcement of Opportunity for The Hubble Space Telescope, dated March 1977, cites that the main scientific objectives for Hubble are to determine:

A. The constitution, physical characteristics, and dynamics of celestial bodies.

B. The nature of processes which occur in the extreme physical conditions existing in and between astronomical objects.

C. The history and evolution of the universe.

D. Whether the laws of nature are universal in the space-time continuum.

As you can see, nowhere does it mention exploring. You may not feel these are important goals, but physicists and other scientists may find the information collected useful, since one day it may help us build bigger, faster space vehicles. On another note, you wanted to know how water got on Mars in a previous post. Well, some scientist spectate that water may have been brought along by comets that crashed into the red planet. And it was partly through images taken by Hubble that they know that some comets contain frozen water. So before you go assuming something like Hubble is useless, you should have read up on what we have learned from it first.

As far as columbus is concerned my argument is a distance and time thing. If we had the ability to travel to another solar system with in our lifespan then fine lets go for it. other wise lets get our selves established so we can develop the base line for doing this.

You are using current knowledge again. Columbus had no idea how long the trip was going to take, yet he decided to venture forward. Back then, it was a foolish decision to many sceptics, but now we praise his actions and wisdom.

1) I see robots as a half @ssed attempt at doing what we ourselves should be doing in person. Hence, for me, Explored != Robots.

2) As far as Columbus is concerned I believe we should follow in his suit and take the next step into space and work on that. Work on the attainable rather than what is billions of years away. It is great to know what HAS happened in the past but those that are constantly looking to the past are putting themselves at risk of having the future throw a frying pan at the back of their head without them ever seeing it coming. That is my worry anyways, that we are focusing too much on what has happened and are not focusing on what should happen with us here at home in our own solar system.

Again you assume that the next step in space is another trip to the moon or a manned mission to Mars. Discoveries are not necassarily on a progressive timeline.


Also a current manne mission to mars would serve no purpose. Would you like them to tell you what it smelled like or how it felt through their protective suits? Do you gain any personal knowledge through the astronauts first hand experience on the moon?

No, Colonize it. After that colonize the moons of Jupiter, find a way to safely colonize the moon, venus, heck even mercury. Mine the asteroid belt for useful minerals and ores. Once we have over come these challenges I would agree we could easily take on the rest of our galaxy and maybe beyond.

 

[ArmchairAthlete]

Especially in the sense of searching for extraterstrial life. Say tomorrow our telescopes see a solar system 300,000 light years away that shows definiate signs of life, just hypothetically speaking here. That meas that 300,000 years ago there was a planet that had signs of intelligent life. Great but hardly useful since for all we know they blew themselves up 100,000 years ago and we still have yet to see that this has occured as the images of light from such an event, if any light at all, will not arrive here on earth for another 100,000 years.

Maybe this has been said quite a few times, but do you have any idea how long Earth was around before and after life began on this planet?

Quite a bit longer than 169,000 years either way I assure you. On geologic time scales that period of time is not nearly as long as you think it is.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: BannedTroll

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: BannedTroll

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: BannedTroll

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: OulOat

Originally posted by: gutharius
If these benefits exist on other planets in outher solar systems they are far from our technological abilities to experience. Sure it is ok to know these places of interest exist but really lets learn more about our own system so we can take that knowlege and move outwards to the rest of our universe.

How are we going to improve our technical abitility if we don't stress out our current technology? It's like saying we should not waste any money exploring quarks just because we do not have any current technology that is able to detect something that small.

We test our technology by building out into our own solar system. By accomplishing ways of moving and mining million ton asteroids. By accomplishing ways the get peope from one planet to another before the person dies from old age, or heck even has time to ask the phrase "Are we there yet?" By accomplishing ways to communicate via interplanetarily in a meaningful and responsive way. We need not explore the farthest and least directly beneficial parts of the universe just to "test our technology" we can do both right here in our own solar system and reap 100% of the benefits.

I don't know if you've done the math yet but the technology to roam about our own solar system is not going to get us to others.

I did the math and that is what started this whole discussion. By me determining that the nearest galaxy is over 169,000 years away at the speed of light. Not that there is much math involved in that.

Actually I don't think you get it. In this case we need to invent the airplane before the hot air balloon (or at least at the same time) in order to do any real good.

That is my point tho, as I see it exploring and colonizing our solar system would be the hot air ballon. Going beyond that would be the first airplane. Landing on a planet on another syolar system would be akin to the first jet airplane and so on... Did I misspeak to cause some confusion with you? My apologies if so.

We cross posted. Again discovery does not necassarily take a progressive path. You are saying why explore deep space because we haven't invented the hot air balloon yet even though it provides the potentially greater benefit.

What greater benefit can their be than being able to colonize mars and in the process discover its riches. What greater benefit can there be than overcoming the challenges in our own solar system? Why peer billions of years into the past at a tiwinkling light we will never be able to send anything to, let alone make any direct use of?

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: gutharius

Originally posted by: judasmachine
we still have all of the Milky Way to explore. some of those stars are only between 8ly and 16,000ly away. if we can ever develop faster than light travel some of these show very promising possibilites. 8ly away is not all that unfeasible, unless we blow ourselves up in the next several centuries. i do agree our solar system should be our first priority as it will be a very long time if at all we develop any faster than light travel.

all that being said, the reason we look at the ancient images is to see where we come from. some of these images are our distant past.

True true, 8ly is far better than 1000ly. But there is that word again "if" i say this "if" will not happen unless we first cut our teeth on conquering the unique challenges presented here in our own solar system. I wonder if we should let go of trying to find out where we came from and instead accept, "We are here.", and move on to, "Where do we go now?"

Can't really argue with that. Yes we have ALOT to learn before we go any further. Right now even the closest planets are still just out of actual human touch. When I see another man on the moon, I will believe it's time to go to Mars. When I see a man on Mars, I will believe it is time to rape and pilliage the asteroid belt. Alpha Centauri is a very distant dream right now. But at least we are gathering information for the day we can really reach out that far.

Ditto.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: gutharius
I know that we as humans learn best by experienceing, by hearing, seeing and DOING. We have been hearing and seeing these things, but we have not been doing the physical exploration part that rewards us so much more knowledge about our universe. Far more so, I say than what we are doing at present.

I whole-heartedly agree that we need to be doing more exploration. We should have bases on Mars and outposts orbiting Jupiter by now. Then again I, like many here, enjoy the thrill of science and learning.

Many Americans have little interest in space exploration. We are very much a "here and now" society. Preparing for space-mining technology that will pay off in 100 years has almost no value to them. In their eyes, such things are problems for the future.

I believe it will take some kind of conflict and strife to change anyone's mind. We're in the apathy/dependancy part of the pride cycle as a nation.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete

Especially in the sense of searching for extraterstrial life. Say tomorrow our telescopes see a solar system 300,000 light years away that shows definiate signs of life, just hypothetically speaking here. That meas that 300,000 years ago there was a planet that had signs of intelligent life. Great but hardly useful since for all we know they blew themselves up 100,000 years ago and we still have yet to see that this has occured as the images of light from such an event, if any light at all, will not arrive here on earth for another 100,000 years.

Maybe this has been said quite a few times, but do you have any idea how long Earth was around before and after life began on this planet?

Quite a bit longer than 169,000 years either way I assure you. On geologic time scales that period of time is not nearly as long as you think it is.

Oh of course! Even still, we are here no mater how long our planet has been here with or without life. I would prefer we stay around for as long as possible. Colonization has this benefit. Industrialization of space has this benefit.