Why don't some countries secede from the E.U.?

[Anarchist420]

It's really been a disaster for the member states and I don't believe reform is ever possible when you've got that much centralization of state power.

I don't think that France and maybe one or two others would let the other countries go so easily, but it's them agaisnt France.

Switzerland is doing fine with national sovereignty. And it pains me to say this, but America isn't doing as pisspoorly as the E.U. is, and we'd be doing even better if we isolate the Federal government to something that protects the liberty of every individual U.S. citizen and no one else. Fuck democratic national interests, fuck superdemocratic global interests.

Free and independent states FTW.

 

[a777pilot]

If things don't improve soon, they just might. Now won't that be fun to watch. But to be effective it will necessarily have to be more than one. A group will have to break away, either as a group or individually but never the less at the same time.

I wonder if someone will sell tickets to watch this?

 

[Thump553]

Europeans hate peace, liberty and prosperity, everyone knows that.

BTW do have the slightest idea what treaty obligations EU members have to each other as part of being in the EU? Walking out is not as simple as canceling your Netflix subscription over their price increase.

The EU has been of tremendous value to Europe, admittedly they are having problems now but those problems can be solved without burning the house down.

 

[BeauJangles]

BTW do have the slightest idea what treaty obligations EU members have to each other as part of being in the EU? Walking out is not as simple as canceling your Netflix subscription over their price increase.

Actually, it is theoretically pretty simple:

Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements

The reality is that withdrawing from the EU and the Eurozone would be difficult because the departing country would have to reconfigure its finances, recreate its currency, etc, etc.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Some form of European integration is necessary from an economic standpoint. Free trade, free travel (of citizens from EU countries), industry standards to avoid adjacent countries from having different technological standards, etc. Mutual defense is not necessary, as NATO exists and that acts as a "European Army."

The Euro, while it furthers the free trade objectives, is a partial failure because countries that cannot get their acts together financially were allowed into the EU. Countries should not be "seceding" from the EU, Germany should be booting countries out that cannot get their act together without requiring bailouts and then their citizens burn their own neighborhoods down when needed reforms are passed. You cannot have a currency union without some political integration as the dead weight will drag countries that manage themselves properly down into the abyss with them.

I am not against national integration, as long as the countries that are being merged are basically the same people. For example, a merger of Austria and Germany would be better for both in the long run, just as a merger of Canada and America would bring great benefits to both parties. You will lose a bit of influence at the federal level as more people will be joining the union, but the economic benefits are astounding and the freedom, lifestyle, culture, etc. that you enjoy will not change if you merge with a country of basically the same culture and democratic ideals.

 

[ShawnD1]

The reality is that withdrawing from the EU and the Eurozone would be difficult because the departing country would have to reconfigure its finances, recreate its currency, etc, etc.

Harsh but necessary evil. I don't think a lot of countries completely understood how important it is to be able to inflate problems away. Ben Franklin's autobiography plainly states that forcing the US to use British currency was a direct cause of economic problems and easily the #1 factor that made the US declare independence.

During times of crisis, inflation was how things were financed. Looking at a graph of US inflation since the beginning shows that inflation was very high during every real war as well as during the cold war. Governments (not just the US) would print money to get out of financial trouble.
Now that countries are in the EU, they can't do that. The money supply is tightly controlled. Having no money means you have no money. It's over, you're fucked until someone bails you out.

 

[Dman8777]

There are a number of countries that want to join the EU but none at this point trying to leave. Why is it that you think countries should leave the EU?

Switzerland is like the size of Rhode Island in land mass and population. Their relevance in this argument is questionable. The US is not doing better then the EU. As a block, the EU and the US are probably about level with some EU nations doing better and some worse than the US. Since it's inception, the Euro has gone from parity with the dollar to worth 40% more. Apparently, investors believe the EU is a safer bet than the US...

 

[Anarchist420]

Harsh but necessary evil. I don't think a lot of countries completely understood how important it is to be able to inflate problems away. Ben Franklin's autobiography plainly states that forcing the US to use British currency was a direct cause of economic problems and easily the #1 factor that made the US declare independence.

During times of crisis, inflation was how things were financed. Looking at a graph of US inflation since the beginning shows that inflation was very high during every real war as well as during the cold war. Governments (not just the US) would print money to get out of financial trouble.
Now that countries are in the EU, they can't do that. The money supply is tightly controlled. Having no money means you have no money. It's over, you're fucked until someone bails you out.

Well, Ben Franklin and his autobio are wrong.

 

[PingviN]

I don't think the EU will dissolve, that I will call impossible. We'll see how the EU evolves, but the union is not going anywhere. Though, with recent times in consideration, a not too small public opinion wants the northern Europe to create it's own union and leave the "irresponsible" southern nations to their own demise. This too is unlikely to happen, but most northern (industrial) countries are getting more and more dismayed by the crap going on down south.

The Euro... well, we'll have to wait and see. Should the economy crash because of the PIIGS league, game over. Finland and Germany will most definitely pull out, France will cry and hard times will be had by all for a couple of years.

 

[ShawnD1]

Well, Ben Franklin and his autobio are wrong.

Nah, you and your Gold Standard people are wrong. Having to deal with a restricted money supply during a time of crisis leads to total disaster.

Think back to WW2. Governments everywhere issued war bonds. They're trying to borrow as much money from We The People as possible in order to pay for war supplies. All of the stuff they can't borrow is paid by printing money. That's what it comes down to. They either print money and have major inflation or they stop funding the war effort and lose the war. Well I guess the third option would be to enslave the people and pay them literally nothing, but we'll hold onto that idea for later.

So how does that situation of the past relate to the current situation? Replace "war effort" with "old people" and it's exactly the same. The US isn't so bad, but Greece is in major shit right now. They've already issued all of the bonds they can issue. When that fails, next step is to print money and use inflation to get out of trouble. Oh shit, they can't do that because they no longer control the money supply. The EU controls the supply of Euros. Now what do they do? All they can do is wait for a bail out. Trying to cancel things like pension or health care will cause a violent revolution.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

neffin in a troll bot thread

 

[Munky]

Because according to the Euro bureaucrats, a default is not really a default, their banks are not really insolvent, and leaving the EU is not really an option. IMO, giving up national currency to join the EU was a dumb idea. Giving up more sovereignty in exchange for a farcical bailout was even dumber.

In this case, the debtor holds power over the lender. The Greeks, Spanish and Portuguese know that the moment they default, the French and German banks will implode. The Germans and French know it too. I bet the people in Iceland are glad they didn't join the EU for all the "prosperity" it promised.

 

[woolfe9999]

I think A420 should secede from the internet. It isn't healthy for him.

 

[trenchfoot]

"Why don't some countries secede from the E.U.?"


Because misery loves company.

 

[epidemis]

People are working on how to proceed from the EU. It has gotten to be a bureaucratic and undemocratic mess, where the population is losing influence to govern themselves daily. It's clear however an economic integration and cooperation is crucial in the light of a globalized world.

The public opinion is against EU legislation on areas like immigration, border security and whole "paneuro vision" yet some leaders arrogantly dismiss them and wonder why so many right-wings was elected to the parliament the last election.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
I bet the people in Iceland are glad they didn't join the EU for all the "prosperity" it promised.

Iceland has already imploded, and in a wildly spectacular manner. Heck, people are fleeing Iceland because the situation is so bad. If a country could declare bankruptcy, they are the country that needs to do it more than any other.

Fern

 

[sMiLeYz]

Nah, you and your Gold Standard people are wrong. Having to deal with a restricted money supply during a time of crisis leads to total disaster.

Think back to WW2. Governments everywhere issued war bonds. They're trying to borrow as much money from We The People as possible in order to pay for war supplies. All of the stuff they can't borrow is paid by printing money. That's what it comes down to. They either print money and have major inflation or they stop funding the war effort and lose the war. Well I guess the third option would be to enslave the people and pay them literally nothing, but we'll hold onto that idea for later.

So how does that situation of the past relate to the current situation? Replace "war effort" with "old people" and it's exactly the same. The US isn't so bad, but Greece is in major shit right now. They've already issued all of the bonds they can issue. When that fails, next step is to print money and use inflation to get out of trouble. Oh shit, they can't do that because they no longer control the money supply. The EU controls the supply of Euros. Now what do they do? All they can do is wait for a bail out. Trying to cancel things like pension or health care will cause a violent revolution.

You have the right idea, but it is deflation not inflation that the PIIGS need. They need to deflate their currency to make it more competitive and grow their economy. But they are stuck with Euro, and a central bank who acts in the interests of Germany and France rather than PIIGS.

 

[Fern]

You have the right idea, but it is deflation not inflation that the PIIGS need. They need to deflate their currency to make it more competitive and grow their economy. But they are stuck with Euro, and a central bank who acts in the interests of Germany and France rather than PIIGS.

That's what I was thinking.

I lived in Europe for many years prior to the EU. I think what they'd do back then was devalue their currency, making it a helluva a bargain. The rest of the Europeans would flood down there for vacation etc.

Fern