why don't LCD monitors display TV as well

[robphelan]

as LCD TVs?

I've had a Samsung 17" LCD monitor w/built in tuner and the picture was no where near as good as my CRT TV.

Same thing goes for my new 2005fpw with a hauppauge PVR250 tv tuner.

 

[L00PY]

It's typically a resolution issue. Standard TV is pretty crappy resolution. If you view the picture in a window the same size as standard TV, it'll look the same (but tiny). You can get a better picture at higher resolutions by running some deinterlacing filters or stepping up to HDTV.

 

[robphelan]

right now hdtv isn't an option.. i don't watch enough and the cable bill is outrageous as it is...

what kind of filters/deinterlacing tools do you mean?

 

[Fisher999]

Correct me if I'm wrong robphelan but I think what you are trying to tell him about the resolution situation goes something like this:

Standard Definition TV has a screen resolution of about 640 x 480 (the old standard for PC way back when). When you are viewing this iamge on a television set you are at quite a distance from the set when you view it so you don't really notice just how shi**y the picture really is.

But on a PC, where most people use screen resolutions of 1024X768 , 1280X1024 or higher ( a much finer resolution than standard TV) AND you are viewing it at a close distance the TV image will look crappy at full screen size. Now, if you display the image in a box (like robphelan suggested) then you can view the 640X480 TV in a window on your 1024X768 or 1280X1024 desktop resolution but the box will be smaller as your desktop resolution increases. The TV image in the BOX will look sharper though.

Another alternative would be to set you desktop resolution to the low 640X480 (low computer monitor resolution by today's standards). Now, eveything in MS Windows O/S will appear big and "grainier" but when you play your TV channels through your TV capture card at this desktop resolution, the tv image will display full screen at a more normal-looking appearance. It will STILL appear crappier than regular TV because you will be viewing it at a closer distance than you view TV channels on your regular TV set.

Now when it comes to the subject of "interlacing" this could take some time and I am exhausted. Suffice it to say that standard defintion TV images are displayed in an interlaced fashion. There is a maximum horizontal resolution of 480. The scan lines are drawn on the tv in an interlaced fashion, the electon gun makes onw swipe up and down the screen drawing the odd numbered scan lines and then jumps back up to the top of the picture tube and draws the even numbered scan lines. Hence the image is interlaced. This one interlaced image that is drawn by two "passes" of the electron gun is referred to as a "frame". There are 60 interlaced scan lines ( 30 odd numbered and 30 even numbered) drawn every second which results in 30 frames drawn per second. Our eyes do not "notice" that the image is drawn in the interlaced fashion. The image appears as if it is being drawn contiguously. Again, the fact that we don't sit within inches of our TV sets makes it easier to NOT notice the interlaced image. This is a standard that was adopted in the televison industry years ago and still haunts us today except for HDTV. But HDTV is another subject, lol.

Modern computer monitors "draw" the image on the screen in a "contiguous" or non-interlaced fashion and hence the image appears much sharper (that and the fact that we view the images at a resolution which is higher than 640X480). When you view your tv channels on your computer monitor in a de-interlaced fashion, using de-interlacing software, the image MAY appear a little clearer to you then it does now or you can lower your desktop resolution to 640X480 (as I mentioned earlier) and this MAY help the quality of the displayed TV image on your computer monitor.

 

[JonnyBlaze]

Originally posted by: robphelan
right now hdtv isn't an option.. i don't watch enough and the cable bill is outrageous as it is...

what kind of filters/deinterlacing tools do you mean?

you only need a hdtv tuner card in the pc. if you have digital cable your bill wont go up.

 

[Fisher999]

Originally posted by: JonnyBlaze

Originally posted by: robphelan
right now hdtv isn't an option.. i don't watch enough and the cable bill is outrageous as it is...

what kind of filters/deinterlacing tools do you mean?

you only need a hdtv tuner card in the pc. if you have digital cable your bill wont go up.

1) He didn't say he has digital cable service, he may only have standard cable service

2) There is a difference between "Digital Cable" and "High Definition" signals. "Digital Cable", which has been around for years, is just a way of sending signals from the cable station to ones home. The analogue signal at the cable company is converted to digital and sent though the cable and then is re-converted (via the required set-top box) back into analogue signals before it is displayed on the tv set. Now it's true the "terms" are beginning to get "blurred" now that some cable companies are offering HIGH DEFINITION programming included in their "digital cable" services.

3) Using an hdtv tuner in his PC will not improve the picture quality unless he can receive "over the air" broadcast HDTV signals or those "sent" through his cable service.

 

[robphelan]

thanks for the explanation Fisher... makes sense...

I will try to lower resolution and see if that makes it clearer.

I normally don't expand the TV window too large unless i'm ironing and want to watch the spurs game or something.. so normally, it's clear enough for me when i'm on the net and watching TV at the same time.

As far as deinterlacing tools go, can you recommend something to use? And how do you use it? Just execute it and then start the TV software?

I do have digital cable, but I bought an HDTV tuner, would that make the normal channels any clearer or only the HDTV?

TIA,
robert.

 

[Fisher999]

Originally posted by: robphelan
...I do have digital cable, but I bought an HDTV tuner, would that make the normal channels any clearer or only the HDTV?

TIA,
robert.

Do you receive HD programming with your Digital Service? As I explained above there is confusion amongst lay people as to what the terms "Digital Cable" and "High Definition Television" really mean.

Even if you are receiving HDTV content through your digital cable service, it will NOT improve the picture quality of the standard definition programs. As that fellow with the little red avator pointed out; if you DO receive HDTV programming VIA your digital service (I think you do as you say you have a HDTV tuner so you are probably paying for and receiving HD content on certain stations and certain programs) then you could purchase an expensive HDTV tuner for your PC; the clarity would ONLY increase for HIGH DEFINITION programs and would NOT improve the quality of STANDARD definition programming (which STILL makes up the majority of the viewing that most of us do).

Greg

 

[Fisher999]

Originally posted by: robphelan
thanks for the explanation Fisher... makes sense...

I will try to lower resolution and see if that makes it clearer...

..As far as deinterlacing tools go, can you recommend something to use? And how do you use it? Just execute it and then start the TV software? ...
TIA,
robert.

Robert: I'm just aware of the theory behing de-interlacing software but have never used it; I used to know the name of a software that fultilled that purpose ( I think it sometimes came bundled with videocards with TV out ) and it may have been part of some TV tuner software bundles but I just can't remember right now.... sorry

But I can tell you that I haven't been concerned with that software because I have been able to "live with" the images displayed by my ATI tv tuners for PCs. In this article written by Anand you can see that he believes that ATI and Hauppauge make the best STANDARD definition tv tuners for PCs.

Anand mentions in the beginning of the article that "...A major constraint to Media Center Edition is that it supports HDTV in a limited fashion, primarily in that it only supports over the air broadcasts - so none of your premium HD content can be viewed/recorded by MCE..." He mentions in the article in the "Final words" section that "...By the end of this year, Windows XP Media Center Edition is supposed to have CableCard support, which will enable complete HDTV support for MCE boxes above and beyond the disappointing limitation for only over the air broadcasts that's in MCE 2005. Hopefully, this roundup will be a farewell to SD as we eagerly await the first HDTV tuners with CableCard support later this year..."

I think he is saying, don't buy a PC HD tv tuner now; wait till your OS supports PREMIUM content as well as "over the air" HDTV broadcasts. Apparently right now, Windows MCE (media center edition) supports JUST "over the air" HDTV broadcasts but this may change in the fall when CableCard support is added to Windows MCE. I can not tell you if Windows XP Home or XP Pro support ANY HDTV content but a little web searching will help you discover the answer to that question.

Greg

 

[L00PY]

Originally posted by: Fisher999
Correct me if I'm wrong robphelan but I think what you are trying to tell him about the resolution situation goes something like this:

robphelan? Why would he correct you when he's the one asking the questions?

In any case, that's pretty much what I was trying to say in my four sentences. Deinterlacers and filters are usually applied by hardware in your TV (say with the awesome Faroudja deinterlacer or your everyday comb filter). Fortunately your computer is much more powerful than your TV and you can find software solutions.

Also, I just threw out HDTV mainly because you didn't mention cable in your first post. Regardless, it's the only way to get more real lines of resolution from your broadcast. Once you start watching HDTV, you realize that everything else looks like crap. Keep in mind that even free OTA HDTV broadcasts have a higher picture quality than DVDs (unless the station's multicasting and wasting bandwidth on non-HDTV stuff, but that's a different issue). I was referring to free OTA HDTV (especially since government mandates mean that odds are you have some in your area), but getting unencrypted QAM encoded HDTV via cable is an option. Depending on your cable provider, it may add to your bill. OTOH, depending on you provider, it might not be an option at all. They might only offer HDTV via encrypted QAM and there's nothing on the market that will directly handle that.

But enough of my rambling. Avsforum is a great place to start checking out your software options. If you just want one to start, a lot of people use DScaler.

 

[corkyg]

LCDs display best at native resolution, and that is too high for NTSC standard TV. So, it will always look crappy.

 

[Fisher999]

Originally posted by: L00PY

Originally posted by: Fisher999
Correct me if I'm wrong robphelan but I think what you are trying to tell him about the resolution situation goes something like this:

robphelan? Why would he correct you when he's the one asking the questions?

My mistake loopy. That sentence was supposed to read "...Correct me if I'm wrong loopy..."