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Why don't I care that the rich are getting richer?

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Also it should be mentioned that I wouldn't care if the richest person in the world was a fricking quadrillionaire as long as they earned/created that wealth in a socially responsible fashion, like say they invented and patented a way to fission any ordinary baryonic matter and power a the entire world for a week with a rock the size of my fist or finally sussed out and patented how to create flexible room temperature superconductors. I only have a problem with the rich getting more bread the way they've been doing it lately in america which is to snatch all the crumbs from the poor.


...and while doing so they get lobbyists to convince Politicians to look the other way...

This is especially true of the spineless congress members to genuflect to Grover Norquist because they probably won't be re-elected without his support. If those politicians care more about being re-elect rather than doing what is right for their country... then they aren't the right people for the position...

as for the president... Bill Hicks had a funny bit about that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MRykTpw1RQ

with the state of the country being what it is, I'm half ready to seriously believe it.
 
its not that they are getting richer that is the problem they are using their wealth and status to disproportionately influence our politics so that they can become richer.

Its a pretty huge distinction how come you haven't made this distinction thus far?
 
-snip-

Let us know when their share of income decreases to 1980 levels, OK?

Why would it?

We're not going to roll back technology such that cable/satellite TV, the internet, PC's etc no longer exist. All these occurred enabling some people to make far more money than previously possible. Bill Gates wasn't making much until PC's exploded. Then the internet was developed as a huge/powerful distribution channel allowing people like Bezos and Whitman to make billions. Before the distribution channel of cable/satellite TV pro athletes etc made little. Now we've got hordes of TV journalists, sit-com 'stars', grade B movie people whose work will never make it on the big screen all making Top 1% and Top .1% money.

That's (entertainment) content distribution. Now we've got info content distribution too. I'm thinking you are old enough to remember what tracking stock information was like back in the 80's. Damn near impossible and the info highly limited. Now it's a click away, just like an investment/purchase. So since then the stock market has been able to go 'retail'. Back in the early 80's I looked at buying a seat on the NYSE. It was a $100K. The most recent data I could find said $4 million in Dec. 2005.

These huge distribution channels have really empowered people. Would RK Rowling be any where near a billionaire if she had written books back in 1980? I don't think so.

The new paradigm is an idea, a sound (music), a look (Kardashians) and use the huge inexpensive distribution channels to make a ton of money by easily conveniently and quickly distributing your (intangible) 'product'.

The old paradigm was build (tangible) widgets, and distribute them through the expensive, slow, expensive distribution system available at that time (trucking, USPS etc.) This took a big company, a lot of capital, a lot of people and a lot of time.

Things change. Deal with it.

You guys come off like a bunch of Luddites.

Fern
 
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I don't mind if someone works hard and becomes wealthy. Where I start to take exception is when their actions effect me, things like:


  • Outsourcing jobs, even if I am not directly laid off this reduces the number of jobs available, increases unemployment making me compete against more people for my job and ultimately receive less pay. We'd all get more pay if employers competed for workers and not the other way around.
  • Drive up the cost of necessities for profit. I'm looking at those who for example buy homes and re-list them at a profit, driving up the price for anyone looking at home ownership and as a spillover effect increasing rental prices.
  • Monopolies or duopolies. Look at most ISPs in the USA, universally poor quality of service and customer service and yet posting record profits every year. The cost of entry for a new competitor is prohibitive or in some cases prohibited by law or physical limitations.
  • Financial leeches who produce nothing and profit by moving money around.
 
The new paradigm is an idea, a sound (music), a look (Kardashians) and use the huge inexpensive distribution channels to make a ton of money by easily conveniently and quickly distributing your (intangible) 'product'.
How do I create wealth by consuming someone else's intangible product? I'm all for entertainment, but entertainment distributes already-created wealth far more than it creates any of its own.

We must move to creating more wealth than we consume. Any paradigm that does not promote that is one to give the finger to, not one to get used to. An economy not producing or trading for as much tangible wealth as it consumes is not sustainable.

The old paradigm was build (tangible) widgets, and distribute them through the expensive, slow, expensive distribution system available at that time (trucking, USPS etc.) This took a big company, a lot of capital, a lot of people and a lot of time.
That is also the current paradigm. Last I looked, we would have a hard time getting by without tangible widgets. Meanwhile, people in countries making those widgets can easily get by without our widgets or services.
 
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I don't see how it's a bogus issue. Yes, the problem hasn't peaked right this very second, but there has been a long term trend of wealth and income being increasingly concentrated at the top of the economic ladder. Our economy has grown by a large amount over the last several decades, yet real wages for the middle class have been more or less stagnant. I don't believe that the top few percent are the only people contributing to growing our economy, why are they the only people really seeing any of the benefits?

Well first, who are these top few percent?

If it's top exec's at big corporations what has changed? One thing is that companies are far larger, in far more countries with many more employees under them. The basic rule, whether in govt or business, is the more people under you, the larger the operation you oversee the more money you make. The CEO today is sitting on a vastly larger operation so they should be making more. To run any business, moreso a large multinational, you need gather data, aggregate it, analyze it and communicate it; and you need to do it as quickly as possible. I get the impression you're younger than me. I was working in the US back in 1980. We didn't have pc's, email, fax machines, spreadsheet programs, databases. Making a long distance telephone inside the US was very expensive. It was a luxury. Making a long distance call o/s the US was unbelievably expensive. We communicated with overseas offices with a friggin telex machine, which was also very expensive. Now try to imagine gathering, analyzing and communicating all that data I mentioned above under those constraints. Just not possible, and any attempt was very expensive. Technology has allowed corps to consolidate and grow much much larger.

The other thing that has helped in crease pay, at least for decent CEO types is the emergence of the retail stock market. This has allowed corporations to pay their execs with stock options. These are mostly misunderstood by people; The exec has to buy the stock (option) at the FMV (going price on the market) at the grant date. If the stock price goes up 3 years later they can make some big bucks (if it goes down they get zip). This costs the corporation nothing (theoretically it does cost the shareholders). We had little of that back before the market went retail.

I don't begrudge those people their money. Of the thousands that come thru biz schools every year only 1 or 2, if that, are gonna make it. I worked with some of these people and I don't envy them. They basically work 24/7/365. When they're on vacation they're usually working. And I've seen an awful of them fall out of even the Top 1% damn quick. There's a lot more movement than these BS studies would have us believe.

This is long enough already so I'll stop here. It shouldn't be difficult to imagine how so many others get into the top for a period because of cable/satelitte TV or the internet etc. All you've gotta do is be just a 'one hit wonder' somewhere in all this and you'll pop up in the top 1%/.1% these days.

Fern
 
How do I create wealth by consuming someone else's intangible product? I'm all for entertainment, but entertainment distributes already-created wealth far more than it creates any of its own.

The person creating the content (intangible product) is the one creating wealth.

For some time I haven't seen anything 'hotter' than content creation. Now it does need to avail itself of the huge, inexpensive distribution channels like internet or cable/satellite TV. It's big because we value it. People can debates the merits or philosophy of that, but it what it is.

We must move to creating more wealth than we consume. Any paradigm that does not promote that is one to give the finger to, not one to get used to.

Pretty well our national problem (debt).

BTW: From what I've seen we could take all the wealth the top and distribute of give it to the US govt and it wouldn't make a dent.

An economy not producing as much tangible wealth as it consumes is not sustainable.

Cannot agree. You seem to discount the value of intangible goods/wealth.

That is also the current paradigm. Last I looked, we would have a hard time getting by without tangible widgets. Meanwhile, people in countries making those widgets can easily get by without our widgets or services.

Perhaps, really depends. I just heard Kodack was going bankrupt. They made tangible widgets (film). Nobody needs/wants it anymore. Things change.

Obviously some tangible products are necessary. But I think it equally obvious that intangible products (medicine, technology/science) are very important.

Fern
 
its not that they are getting richer that is the problem they are using their wealth and status to disproportionately influence our politics so that they can become richer.

Its a pretty huge distinction how come you haven't made this distinction thus far?

Yeah, rich people have political influence. But when has it ever been different? I don't think it ever has.

Seems to me the difference is one of 'how'. Before we had smoke filled backrooms. Now it's out in the open and they have to blow millions on TV or the internet in political ads (or, as some would prefer, brainwashing).

Politics and money have always gone hand-in-hand. Outside of some utopian view I don't see that ever changing.

Perhaps we can control it better, but I don't see it being eliminated.

Fern
 
The person creating the content (intangible product) is the one creating wealth.

For some time I haven't seen anything 'hotter' than content creation. Now it does need to avail itself of the huge, inexpensive distribution channels like internet or cable/satellite TV. It's big because we value it. People can debates the merits or philosophy of that, but it what it is.
I'm not debating that it has no value. Rather, that it does not itself create net wealth. Some supporting technologies can make some, but not much.

The wealth that the content creator gains is mostly wealth others had gained from other ventures, not unlike wealth from financial services. Even tangible goods fall into that situation, like house construction (a redistribution/spending of wealth from other sources, not creation of wealth itself).

When any meaningful amount of that entertainment wealth goes into the pockets the average American, rather than coming out of it, it might matter.

The real problem with it all is that, fundamentally, value is based on labor, and we must create more value to people in nations of lesser industrial and technical ability, than they can create for themselves, and do so over some significant period of time, if we want to get out of the mire we are in by means that don't completely tear our economy apart. We have the means to develop, create, and manage better (for now). We don't have the means to provide services better (on a large enough scale), since they will be limited by cultural divides, language divides, laws, and simple physical distance.

Being primarily concerned with the plight of my own country, of course, I have no problem with the entertainment industry selling abroad, and bringing those profits back here. But, when they do, those profits need to go into the hands of those doing work to create the works, not merely the erroneously-named "creators," that are typically lenders more than they are creators. If profits are not sufficiently shared with workers, they aught to be re-invested into new works (and yes, I will admit that some entertainment companies do this; no generalization is without its exceptions).
Pretty well our national problem (debt).

BTW: From what I've seen we could take all the wealth the top and distribute of give it to the US govt and it wouldn't make a dent.
There isn't one single easy solution. We need to increase taxes, implement tariffs, spend less, and invest in wealth-creating and wealth-maintaining infrastructure. Even then, it will take 5-10 years just to make dents, and it will not lead us into an age of prosperity. We don't have a choice of not being screwed over. It's too late for that. As it is, we can choose along the range from peasantly screwed to royally screwed.

Cannot agree. You seem to discount the value of intangible goods/wealth.
Intangible goods are only valuable until others don't need them, which occurs all the time. Our 'service economy' is intangible goods, and other nations can provide those for themselves and others just as well as we can, and we often outsource as training.

Intangibles are not without value, but they are much more a way to retain sanity, and redistribute wealth, than to create/export more in the long run than is consumed/imported.

Perhaps, really depends. I just heard Kodack was going bankrupt. They made tangible widgets (film). Nobody needs/wants it anymore. Things change.
Yes, things do change, and Kodak sat twiddling their thumbs. Other companies, that followed the times, are doing OK. I don't see Canon shutting their doors any time soon. People need cars in the US. People need shelter. People need clothes. People need appliances. Some of us use cookware and tableware. We all use lightbulbs. We are beginning to need smartphones to get/keep decent jobs. And so on.

We need to reduce debt, public and private, and provide for those needs, which invariably means producing more, and thus employing more.

Obviously some tangible products are necessary. But I think it equally obvious that intangible products (medicine, technology/science) are very important.
Much of medicine is tangible, along with technology, and yes, they are important. But, unless we can use domestic ones to saturation, and then also export excess, they aren't sufficiently good for our economy. If we can export excess, we will need to be able to do so at a rate cheaper than others can provide said services for themselves. As it is, we have trouble paying for own services; who else in the world is going to pay for them?

Basically, it may be possible to create comparative advantage (it is not innate!) for some areas, where we are eroding ours, but services/intangibles are not an area where country A can provide for country B better than country B can provide for itself. R&D (no actual goods at all) and production of quality goods are areas where the developed Western world still retains comparative advantages, should we be willing to fully exploit them, instead of trying to get rid of them for the sake of next quarter's profits.
 
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How would you feel if I told you that the rich are becoming richer because they are paying you much less than the value of your labor is worth?

Would you feel differently if you knew that the economic forces that are resulting in the rich becoming richer have increased the amount of competition you have for white collar jobs and thus reduced the ease with which you can get a decent wage?

Would you feel differently if you knew that those forces were increasing the amount of poverty and social instability in this country and that they were thus putting stress on local and state governments' ability to provide valuable public services?

1. I don't feel like I'm being paid less than my labor is worth. Heck, sometimes I feel over paid.

2. I would have to wait for that to happen. As I see it now, the rich have no affect on my ability to easily find a job at a reasonable wage at this moment.

3. I would need to see proof that whatever actions they are taking (e.g. shipping jobs overseas) is out of spite, due to them "hating america", and not because they are doing it to maximize profits for their company.
 
Actually, you'll (maybe) see that that's not what I said at all. The simple answer acknowledged the fact that while the "wealth" of the top 1% of the top 1% is increasing, so is the wealth of the other 99% of the top 1%. The problem that that 99% has is that their wealth is growing slower than the wealth of others. In the United States wealth is not a zero-sum game whereby if Warren Buffet gets an extra $1,000,000 then 1,000,000 other people all lost $1. If I have $100 today and tomorrow I have $125 and I am better off and happy, what's wrong with that? The problem is that many people act like petulant children and if they go from $100 to $125 but someone else goes from $100 to $150 then the $125 person is "losing" even though they would be content with $125 in isolation.

The complex answer addressed the very real fact that "the 99%" (really the 99% of the 1%) don't give a rat's ass about the rest of the world. Oh, they may say they do but it's completely disingenuous. The Occupiers weren't out there campaigning for water in Africa, food in South America, or vaccines in Asia; they were complaining that their material goods and services, goods and services which 99% of the globe views as extravagant luxuries, were a few pennies or dollars more expensive.

So, to answer the OP's question no it is not necessarily wrong to not care that the rich get richer. If you're happy with what you have why should someone else bother you? Keep in mind too that to the globe you're part of the 1% and should be grateful for what you have.

Fun fact: The USA is 4% of the world's population. NOT 1%.
 
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and how did you come to a point that you hate Americans and America so much?

Why do you stay here since you hate it so much?

"Hate" is the point.

Simple fact is I'm not the one hating.

And the rich people are Americans too. You guys seem to be hating them because they are rich. Maybe some are crooks and they deserve the hate. But I don't hate Tom Cruise because he makes a $100 million per (fairly crappy) movie. Likewise for prof athletes making 10's of millions of $'s for playing basketball, a sport I don't even like to watch. I just don't concern myself with it.

The rich don't affect my life. If they affect yours, you're doing something wrong. If you got rid of all the rich people, it wouldn't affect my life. There would just be a different crop of people taking over those high paying roles. And I have no desire to be an exec of a mega-corp or a movie start. So, it wouldn't effect me in the least.

Fern
 
How do I create wealth by consuming someone else's intangible product? I'm all for entertainment, but entertainment distributes already-created wealth far more than it creates any of its own.

We must move to creating more wealth than we consume. Any paradigm that does not promote that is one to give the finger to, not one to get used to. An economy not producing as much tangible wealth as it consumes is not sustainable.

That is also the current paradigm. Last I looked, we would have a hard time getting by without tangible widgets. Meanwhile, people in countries making those widgets can easily get by without our widgets or services.

The person creating the content (intangible product) is the one creating wealth.

For some time I haven't seen anything 'hotter' than content creation. Now it does need to avail itself of the huge, inexpensive distribution channels like internet or cable/satellite TV. It's big because we value it. People can debates the merits or philosophy of that, but it what it is.

We must move to creating more wealth than we consume. Any paradigm that does not promote that is one to give the finger to, not one to get used to.

Pretty well our national problem (debt).

BTW: From what I've seen we could take all the wealth the top and distribute of give it to the US govt and it wouldn't make a dent.



Cannot agree. You seem to discount the value of intangible goods/wealth.



Perhaps, really depends. I just heard Kodack was going bankrupt. They made tangible widgets (film). Nobody needs/wants it anymore. Things change.

Obviously some tangible products are necessary. But I think it equally obvious that intangible products (medicine, technology/science) are very important.

Fern
If you change his quote to:
We must move to creating more wealth than we consume. Any paradigm that does not promote that is one to give the finger to, not one to get used to. An economy not producing or trading for as much tangible wealth as it consumes is not sustainable.
then he is absolutely and incontrovertibly correct. But there are three big problems with producing and trading intangible wealth. First, it isn't working. The vast majority of the intangible wealth we produce is also consumed here, and what we export isn't a patch on what we import. Second, he is correct that other countries can do without our intangible wealth far more easily than we can do without their tangible wealth. I'd miss my cable television and my books, but I NEED my computer and my heat pump. And third, our exported intangible wealth directly profits only a tiny percentage of the population. Grips and electricians and set carpenters don't get royalties from Avatar. The fairness of this is certainly arguable, but what is unarguable is its affect on our society, and while Blahblahyoutoo makes a valid point about greed and envy of the wealthy, that effect remains. People don't LIKE it that some are getting very much wealthier, and while I myself don't care, I'm not blind to the affect on our society, nor do I think it poses an ideal situation for our country.

I very much do not want a more powerful, more intrusive government forcing a top-down, Marxist style command economy on us, with all the loss of freedom and economic opportunity that entails. But I fear that either ignoring the growing wealth disparity or empowering government to seize and redistribute wealth will both inevitably lead to that end.
 
-snipp
But there are three big problems with producing and trading intangible wealth. First, it isn't working. The vast majority of the intangible wealth we produce is also consumed here, and what we export isn't a patch on what we import. Second, he is correct that other countries can do without our intangible wealth far more easily than we can do without their tangible wealth. I'd miss my cable television and my books, but I NEED my computer and my heat pump. And third, our exported intangible wealth directly profits only a tiny percentage of the population. Grips and electricians and set carpenters don't get royalties from Avatar. The fairness of this is certainly arguable, but what is unarguable is its affect on our society, and while Blahblahyoutoo makes a valid point about greed and envy of the wealthy, that effect remains. People don't LIKE it that some are getting very much wealthier, and while I myself don't care, I'm not blind to the affect on our society, nor do I think it poses an ideal situation for our country.

I very much do not want a more powerful, more intrusive government forcing a top-down, Marxist style command economy on us, with all the loss of freedom and economic opportunity that entails. But I fear that either ignoring the growing wealth disparity or empowering government to seize and redistribute wealth will both inevitably lead to that end.

Intangible wealth includes far more than entertainment content.

It is ideas, designs, processes, patents etc.

Kodak is now going out of business because of a bit of intangible value created (and created here I think) - digital imaging.

Advance in medicine are mostly intangible.

Software is intangible.

Advances in food production efficiency is intangible. We can grow/produce with less than most others. Same with mnay things really.

Sure, some of these intangible creations are effected in a tangible piece of equipment, like an EKG machine. But the tangible parts themselves are of relatively little value.

People will gladly exchange their tangible products for our intangible products. Our problem is we suck at trading and flat-out give far too much away for nothing in return. We're not working the business model correctly.

Fern
 
Intangible wealth includes far more than entertainment content.

It is ideas, designs, processes, patents etc.

Kodak is now going out of business because of a bit of intangible value created (and created here I think) - digital imaging.

Advance in medicine are mostly intangible.

Software is intangible.

Advances in food production efficiency is intangible. We can grow/produce with less than most others. Same with mnay things really.

Sure, some of these intangible creations are effected in a tangible piece of equipment, like an EKG machine. But the tangible parts themselves are of relatively little value.

People will gladly exchange their tangible products for our intangible products. Our problem is we suck at trading and flat-out give far too much away for nothing in return. We're not working the business model correctly.

Fern
I certainly agree with that. There is no justification in accepting import tariffs without reciprocation, or in allowing a corporation to sell drugs more cheaply to comparable nations than to our citizens. But that still leaves my second and third points.
 
Originally Posted by dmcowen674
and how did you come to a point that you hate Americans and America so much?

Why do you stay here since you hate it so much?


"Hate" is the point.

Simple fact is I'm not the one hating.

And the rich people are Americans too. You guys seem to be hating them because they are rich. Maybe some are crooks and they deserve the hate. But I don't hate Tom Cruise because he makes a $100 million per (fairly crappy) movie. Likewise for prof athletes making 10's of millions of $'s for playing basketball, a sport I don't even like to watch. I just don't concern myself with it.

The rich don't affect my life. If they affect yours, you're doing something wrong. If you got rid of all the rich people, it wouldn't affect my life. There would just be a different crop of people taking over those high paying roles. And I have no desire to be an exec of a mega-corp or a movie start. So, it wouldn't effect me in the least.

Fern

Bingo, you got it and don't even know it.

You are not personally affected because you are rich enough to not be affected.

While you may not be a rich crook even you admit much of the super rich got that way by hook and crook and their influence of raises prices on those affected by their actions certainly have a reason to "hate" them.

Until you are no longer rich enough to be personally affected you couldn't give a shit ergo you hate all the rest of Americans and America.
 
Originally Posted by dmcowen674
-snip-
Bingo, you got it and don't even know it.

You are not personally affected because you are rich enough to not be affected.

I'm not rich at all.

I'd say I'm right in the middle of the 99%.

I'm not affected because I'm insulated from them; physically, psychologically, financially and emotionally.

While I'm sure that at any given point in time there are a few here lurking about in their gated mansions set back in the forests, they are literally invisible to me.

Fern
 
People will gladly exchange their tangible products for our intangible products.
'Tis the nature of currency. In an economy where wealth (or, in our case, a promise of future production of wealth) is distributed amongst the whole populous, rather than say, feudal lords, and voluntary agreements of trade between people is how a balance of capital is maintained, trading tangible for intangible, or intangible for tangible, is the way of things. That, in itself, is not a problem.

That we aren't taking advantage of our genuine technical advantages, and are instead selling them to competitors, while our government is making damn sure that companies doing that have tax breaks, selective enforcement (immigration, FI), special regulation loopholes, and subsidies, is a huge problem.

It's not that intangibles have no value, it's that they have no value by themselves, and cannot create more by using less. Effectively, intangibles range from currency pits (I love music and movies, but I can admit that they have only a marginal attachment to wealth creation) to value-adds for production of real goods. It is not until things with value-adds are created and sold that any wealth has been created using them. And, it is that capital left over after selling goods that matters, including where all of it ends up.

As it stands, we can still make goods, and do it well. Go to any good commercial tool supplier, and you'll find items made in the U.S., Canada, and various central and northern European countries. Why? Because if you're going to beat the Hell out them, they provide more value than their added cost, which in turn means you get to keep more of your gross pay in the long run. That it can be hard to find such things at consumer stores is sad on multiple levels.

While GM and GE are selling the U.S. out to China, Kia, Honda, Subaru, etc., are building new whole car plants here, and also parts plants. What we need is for companies with the power of GM and GE to invest here, again, so that we can maintain some chance for the future, before all of our valuable commodity production tech is lost to other countries, most notably China. We need workers to be rewarded for their production. We need trade barriers.
Our problem is we suck at trading and flat-out give far too much away for nothing in return. We're not working the business model correctly.

Fern
We have a system that encourages short-term profits over long-term profits, pleasing 3rd parties over customers, employees, and account holders (if any), and that allows credit to be treated the same as capital (which, in the long run, dilutes profits through interest). That what should be our statesmen are all snake oil salesmen in bed with the businesses screwing us over makes it all the worse. The rules need to change, not just the current leadership.
 
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who allows for the corruption? the politicians?
shouldn't they be at capitol hill then?

And who elects these politicians?

If they are the 1% then how can they win elections at the ballot box when the other 99% is able to vote?

Last time I checked 99% > 1%
 
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