Why doesn't Taiwan declare independence?

[XMan]

They say they are a separate entity from the PRC . . . but they have yet to declare it officially. Why?

I mean . . . the Chinese don't have the Navy to invade, and the US Navy makes port in Taipei rather often . . . so what's the concern?

I'm really not very well versed in the subject, so pardon my ignorance. I was just curious.

 

[Dually]

China does have a navy and would invade it.

 

[fatbaby]

<< China does have a navy and would invade it. >>



i dont think their grand fleet of junks qualifies

 

[XMan]

China does have a navy and would invade it.

Having a Navy does not automatically mean you have the ability to invade another country. China's Navy is mostly submarines - those generally don't transport soldiers to beach heads.

 

[lawaris]

<<

<< China does have a navy and would invade it. >>



i dont think their grand fleet of junks qualifies >>




U r naive

 

[yata]

I'm not well-versed either, but I can tell you this:

Taiwan the people themselves are split between declaring independance and "reunite" to China. The locals haven't decided, and everytime China fires a missile past Taiwan, Taiwanese stock exchange goes limp.

There's really no chance of invasion. First it's really pointless and easy, second, the US has a part in keeping the peace.

 

[BeauJangles]

<< China does have a navy and would invade it.

Having a Navy does not automatically mean you have the ability to invade another country. China's Navy is mostly submarines - those generally don't transport soldiers to beach heads. >>



Most of those subs are crappy diesel ones, at that. The Taiwanese would put up a damn good fight, considering they have AEGIS cruisers and some other nice pieces of technology. I believe that China would eventually overwhelm them, but it would be at an incredibly high loss of life. Also many Taiwanese would die. Thus, I don't believe Taiwan will declare independence or fight until China makes it necessary to do so.

 

[Hammer]

The ROC wasn't sold the AEGISs, and China would pound Taiwan into the ground with the huge concentration of missiles they have pointed at Taiwan.

 

[fatalbert]

because they still claim the mainland as well, they believe they are the true chinese gov't in exile, so it isn't independence they are seeking really, also it would force action by the PRC and they would rather not fight them

 

[ed21x]

<< I'm not well-versed either, but I can tell you this:

Taiwan the people themselves are split between declaring independance and "reunite" to China. The locals haven't decided, and everytime China fires a missile past Taiwan, Taiwanese stock exchange goes limp.

There's really no chance of invasion. First it's really pointless and easy, second, the US has a part in keeping the peace. >>



I'm not quite sure what the exact number is, but coming from Taiwan, and being partly educated there, I can tell you that there is hardly a split on this topic. In a near 99% unanimous decision (by my classmates) most taiwanese people would take at an insult to even be associated with the chinese government. But other than that, the thousands of missiles China has pointing at Taiwan is somewhat of a deterrent in our declaring independence.

 

[KokomoGST]

ed21x has got a big chunk of the picture. A TON of Taiwanese people want to see their nation "given back to them" so-to-speak... especially among the educated young people. Those people would the equivalent generation to US GenXers & GenYers. However, there are still a fair number of people in Taiwan with power that are against independence... mebbe they feel some sort of coziness about their claim as the "true China" and thus reunification is more attractive to them. They may also have cultural reasons as they see themselves as "Chinese" and thus independence from their "true nation" is unfathomable.

I'm actually on the other side, I'm pure non-mainland Taiwanese with some Japanese blood in there for good measure. I believe there is no cultural link, the practices and culture of the Taiwanese people is different from the Chinese. Only when the Nationalists came over did greed and cutthroat competition and other such "Chinese" characteristics introduce themselves into the culture. The "chinese" that came over in mass exoduses prior to the Nationalists came over to escape the "barbarians" that had taken over China. They brought their own fine art and culture and practices and intermingled with the native peoples for manymany years. Plus there is the time of Japanese rule. None of those "native" cultures or even foreign cultures brought along with them the inherent "disharmony" of community that the Chinese brought. While this is just my theory/opinion... many other people who are for Taiwanese independence agree. They look at the degeneration of Taiwanese society and blame a lot on Chinese influences whether it be from indirect (culture influx) or direct (martial law/gov't corruption).

While I agree that Taiwan will have the US help it eventually, therein lies the problem. China may very well take some sort of brash or ill-advised action and the consequences would be felt and the victims would be the people of Taiwan... even if the US stepped in to help. Also, you have to consider that we have a nuclear arsenal in the US as deterrent as well as advanced weapons technology. Taiwan doesn't officially have nukes and their weapons technolgy is good but still outdated which is why they're working to upgrade on their own. Even President Chen is well aware that despite the justness of independence and the liberty that comes with it... in any conflict, it's the Taiwanese people that will be the ones that suffer. He doesn't want that, I don't want that, I'm pretty sure people in Taiwan don't want that either.

 

[Dragnov]

<< I'm not quite sure what the exact number is, but coming from Taiwan, and being partly educated there, I can tell you that there is hardly a split on this topic. In a near 99% unanimous decision (by my classmates) most taiwanese people would take at an insult to even be associated with the chinese government. But other than that, the thousands of missiles China has pointing at Taiwan is somewhat of a deterrent in our declaring independence. >>



Your Taiwanese American friends do not represent the Taiwanese people themselves. I would think they don't due to economic reasons as well as milatary reasons. I remember there was a semi-fiasco of China wanting to make Tawain part of its country again, and military talk was coming up. Good thing it cooled down because the U.S. would've been in one sticky situation.

 

[fawhfe]

<<greed and cutthroat competition>>

Hmm.... I believe this is what we call CAPITALISM. The very foundation of capitalism is that if you do whats best for you (greed) then you will end up doing whats best for the society. (ok so maybe this is slightly outdated/not true but lets not just dismiss adam smith like that)

Taiwan has no cultural ties to China? Umm... Well lets see, what language to you speak? Wait, could that be Chinese? How are the cultural customs completely different? You will have to elaborate on this as I cannot speak for Taiwanese culture. If you walk down a major Chinese city however, you will find it is just like an American city except the buildings are typically older, theres a lot more people, and of course all the people are Chinese. I suppose if youre getting at the fact that Taiwan is a good 'ol democracy with the same good 'ol values of America then youre not looking at any signifigant difference.

A conflict between China and Taiwan would result in unecessary casualties on both sides but would be an easy victory for the Chinese because well, its 1.2 billion vs (i dont know but its a LOT less than 1.2 billion) not to mention the incredible army and ballistic/technology inbalances.

If you want to argue something like free Tibet, I'll listen. They do have different customs and there has been unfair oppression. The people of Taiwan are basically Chinese people who arent in imminent danger of Chinese "oppression." Yea the Chinese government sucks but its improving rapidly by opening economically. Besides, what would a democratically elected leader in China be doing different other than political rights.

 

[AzNmAnJLH]

hong kong seems to be doing fine.... don't see any reasons why taiwan would have to.

 

[b0mbrman]

<< hong kong seems to be doing fine.... don't see any reasons why taiwan would have to. >>


HK's kinda a weird case though...

 

[rahvin]

<< China would pound Taiwan into the ground with the huge concentration of missiles they have pointed at Taiwan. >>



They want Taiwan whole not a smoking pit, if they destroy all the industry and infastructure they might as well invade vietnam because it would be just about as valuable if you launched all those missles at Taiwan. The whole point of getting Taiwan is the same as Hong Kong, to reap the benefits of the economy and use it as a stimulus against their own.



<< Also, you have to consider that we have a nuclear arsenal in the US as deterrent as well as advanced weapons technology. >>



The US has never officially extended the US nuclear "umbrella" of defense over Taiwan. This is a very important point, we also never extended it over Korea and as a result didn't nuke china during the Korean war. Without the official declaration of extension of nuclear protection Taiwan will not be defended with nuclear weapons by the US.

 

[Imdmn04]

how about one country 3 systems. (mainland+taiwan+hongkong), the reason China hasnt taken over taiwan today is that Bush has showed that he is not afraid to help out while supporting the one china policy. so its really a stand still and dont expect anything to happen very soon.

do yo honestly think taiwan would be the propsperous place today if it were not for the outside influences?(nationalists)

the taiwan natives are very prejudiced against the immigrants, they need not forget, its the flock of immigrants(when the nationalist fled China) who helped to shape Taiwan as of today. those immigrants believe it or not, still has a fondness for mainland. if China and Taiwan goes to war, they would be slaying their own brothers and sisters. which is not gonna happen unless taiwan declares independence

True the nationalists were very corrupted, and the commies kicked their ass for that reason, but once they got to taiwan and they got their act together, it turned into prosperous place.

 

[ddjkdg]

<< Taiwan has no cultural ties to China? Umm... Well lets see, what language to you speak? Wait, could that be Chinese? How are the cultural customs completely different? You will have to elaborate on this as I cannot speak for Taiwanese culture. If you walk down a major Chinese city however, you will find it is just like an American city except the buildings are typically older, theres a lot more people, and of course all the people are Chinese. I suppose if youre getting at the fact that Taiwan is a good 'ol democracy with the same good 'ol values of America then youre not looking at any signifigant difference. >>



FYI Taiwanese people usually speak, well, Taiwanese. The other main language is Chinese (Mandarin) but that is used less often especially in casual talk.

I think the connection you're making between Chinese and American cities is ridiculous. If that were true you could make the same claim about any city in the world. "Walk down a major city in England and everything's basically the same except the buildings are older and the people are English." Whoop-de-doo, so what? The fact of the matter is that they are NOT the same.

I think what KokomoGST is trying to point out is that the reason many Taiwanese want independence is because they are fundamentally different from China or for that matter any other place (e.g. America). He made no comments about Taiwan being just like the good ol' US of A.

 

[KokomoGST]

I knew someone was going to argue the "Taiwan doesn't have its own culture" bit... here's the canned Taiwanese independent's response... we don't speak Chinese by choice, Taiwanese was banned and repressed during all the years of martial law... but guess what, people are rediscovering it and trying to preserve it. We speak Taiwanese. Korea has lots of Chinese architecture and fine art etcetc... are they Chinese? Rather, are Americans British? When you have a culture that is nearly squashed completely as it has been with the repressive nature of Nationalist martial law rule, of course it SEEMS that there is no cultural difference. We have our own food, our own customs, unique art & music... separate history... so... to say to Taiwanese people that they are Chinese... infuriates some of us. Taiwan never really "belonged" to China... neither did Tibet. The only similarity to China that Taiwan carries is mostly due to the veil put up but the KMT during the "Republic of China" crap.

Cultural practices brought over by the Nationalists were not based on capitalism... I may not have explained correctly, but the greed and corruption are based not on equal footing as capitalism is. Rather it's based on a skewed power structure where the "sellouts" and "dictators" enjoy power it's benefits, while all others are left to scramble after the scraps. The standard practices of Taiwan dictate a more communal and harmonious approach to things. It parallels better with Japanese society than it does with Chinese. Taiwan didn't prosper because of the Nationalists... rather in spite of them. KMT members held the majority of the wealth and yet Taiwan still managed to build small industries into successful companies. Taiwanese business practices were not part of the infrastructure set up by the KMT, they were in Taiwanese interaction. You should read up about how truly corrupt the Nationalists were up until the rapid breakdown during post-martial law.

 

[spp]

because they still claim the mainland as well, they believe they are the true chinese gov't in exile, so it isn't independence they are seeking really, also it would force action by the PRC and they would rather not fight them


you are WRONG!!! every since Lee became the president, the Taiwanese people have already abandoned the idea of claiming mainland china as its territory. Right now the majority of Taiwanese people want independence.

 

[spp]

hong kong seems to be doing fine.... don't see any reasons why taiwan would have to

yeah but hong kong never had its own government. and i believe most hong kong people don't feel good about the nwe rule of china.

did you know that there was a big wave of immigration before china took over hong kong??

 

[jimmygates]

Taiwan basically announced it's independence when it elected their first president. China saw this and launched a couple of "test" missiles at Taiwan.


I'm Taiwanese and would like to see Taiwan "OFFICIALLY" Independent also. However, it's easier said than done. Taiwan's politics/politicians are all screwed up.



When I was in Taiwan last November, I saw a political candidate get beat in public. His measly 4 body guards couldn't stop the onslaught of 30 some odd people rushing the candidate. If you look at our senate meetings, politicians fight all the time. That's just how things work over there I guess.




-Jimbo

 

[walrus]

Why don't anyone ever mention that before 1949 the country we call Taiwan was a sovern nation called Formosa. The National Chinese Killed all the educated Formosans with a complete form of ethnic cleansing. And everyone acts as if it never hapened. They get all worked up about protecting Taiwan but don't care about the few remaining Formosans.. Like most of the political posturing in this country it is all bull$hit.

We support a totaly corupt country that is not a democracy. Threatning nucular war against China to protect a bumch of corupt despots.

 

[gopunk]

<< Why don't anyone ever mention that before 1949 the country we call Taiwan was a sovern nation called Formosa. The National Chinese Killed all the educated Formosans with a complete form of ethnic cleansing. And everyone acts as if it never hapened. They get all worked up about protecting Taiwan but don't care about the few remaining Formosans.. Like most of the political posturing in this country it is all bull$hit. >>



uh the chinese were there a lot earlier than 1949. taiwan has been chinese territory since 1683... it was ceded to japan in 1895. returned to china in 1945. 1949 is when the nationalists went there, but chinese have been there and owned the island for a lot longer. i don't believe it's been soverign for a quite a while now... i mean "formosa" is portuguese, if that gives you any clue as to how sovereign they were.

but you're right, taiwan and the native taiwanese are like america and the native americans.

 

[Imdmn04]

<< did you know that there was a big wave of immigration before china took over hong kong?? >>



did you also know a lot of these people has moved back to Hong Kong since then seeing nothing dramatic has happend after the handover? Hong Kong still retains most of the freedoms once granted by the British Government

this is why its called 1 country 2 systems. if China is bright enough to let a democratic system run in Hong Kong, then they are smart enough to know that hard line communist policies wont do too well in the future, therefore changes will be implemented. already private enterprises outnumbers state-owned businesses, so China is moving in the right direction, one day when they see the light at the end of the tunnel, democracy will slowly crawl into its place in China