Why doesn't ATI have the best low profile gpu?

[Selbatrim]

Hi Zap.

Thanks for your comments. I understand the difficulties with making low profile cards and I myself did pay a premium for the 4650. Guessing about 20-30% more and with somewhat less performance.

Thing is, I was happy to pay more. I only wish I'd've waited a couple more weeks and got the Apollo 4650 with GDDR3 memory. There are reasons other than fanboism for me choosing AMD, but that was never really intended to be the discussion.

I thought the 9800GT was based on 65nm tech (at least when the low profile sparkle card was released). AMD has had 55nm for quite some time now, that's why I thought the step to go to low profile should've been smaller and therefore more likely that AMD would win this segment.

I think ultimately that because AMD gfx is still the smaller player (right?) that their total turnover is less and therefore the partners are less likely to recoup any money spent developing something different/more complicated.

Then again, mobile chips are still being churned out so if you can stick a 4870 in a laptop my thinking is that making a low profile version with the same components shouldn't be THAT much of a stretch? Maybe I'm just living in a dreamworld. Seems a fair few of the replies would indicate that Peace.

 

[alyarb]

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
First off, thanks everyone for a spirited discussion as always whenever graphics are mentioned. Now, for those of you who didn't get it my post about having AMDs babies is obviously a joke. I'm male so that's not possible... DAAMIT...

Secondly, if I can draw your attention to my OP I have the 4650. I use it, I don't love it, but it works. My post is not about which low profile card has the highest performance. I know that. I already said that didn't I? (checks OP) Ok, I didn't outright say it but I mentioned the 9800 in a sort of "the thing to beat" category.

So, I get it guys, most of you wouldn't be caught dead with a low profile card, but I went down that road as I have a wife and a small apartment and a need to keep my machine small and quiet etc.

Couple that with a bad history with Nvidia and a bias towards the underdog (so kill me) I wanted an ATI chip.

Now, the Sapphire 4650 LP is not bad, but what is stopping it more than anything is RAM, so, I asked the hardware minded of you if you knew if there was some huge reason why putting faster ram on a card (not touching the GPU, which is not the bottleneck here) would be so difficult?

Ok, so maybe the performance low profile segment is small, but low profile and integrated is the majority of the GPU market (I don't know the exact figure) so obviously that should be the meat of R&D right?

Sorry for setting a negative tone, but the first reply I got, within 3 minutes of posting, was a question, not an answer. Oh, and apologies for the irreverent topic title. Sorry I like AMD guys... Nvidia forever...

Aplogies for any bad vibes sent out guys ok? Just on a quest and looking for answers/glimmer of hope.

i'm sorry but what's the problem with a $20 rosewill case? they have quiet 120mm fans and will fit full sized cards.

 

[hans007]

well if anyone cares... the powercolor 4650 is $36 shipped at newegg RIGHT NOW after a $15 rebate.


ATI will probalby have the lead with low profile as far as value per $ chiefly because they make the only decent gpus with 128-bit bus. the 9800 GT low profile probably took a lot of design work to make a non reference design with extra PCB layers for its 256-bit bus. I think once the 40nm tsmc process is squared away and solid, we will see some 4750 or 4750 low profile designs since its also 128-bit bus. Until then, the 4650 is probably adequate. And for $36 its great value.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
First off, thanks everyone for a spirited discussion as always whenever graphics are mentioned. Now, for those of you who didn't get it my post about having AMDs babies is obviously a joke. I'm male so that's not possible... DAAMIT...

Secondly, if I can draw your attention to my OP I have the 4650. I use it, I don't love it, but it works. My post is not about which low profile card has the highest performance. I know that. I already said that didn't I? (checks OP) Ok, I didn't outright say it but I mentioned the 9800 in a sort of "the thing to beat" category.

So, I get it guys, most of you wouldn't be caught dead with a low profile card, but I went down that road as I have a wife and a small apartment and a need to keep my machine small and quiet etc.

Couple that with a bad history with Nvidia and a bias towards the underdog (so kill me) I wanted an ATI chip.

Now, the Sapphire 4650 LP is not bad, but what is stopping it more than anything is RAM, so, I asked the hardware minded of you if you knew if there was some huge reason why putting faster ram on a card (not touching the GPU, which is not the bottleneck here) would be so difficult?

Ok, so maybe the performance low profile segment is small, but low profile and integrated is the majority of the GPU market (I don't know the exact figure) so obviously that should be the meat of R&D right?

Sorry for setting a negative tone, but the first reply I got, within 3 minutes of posting, was a question, not an answer. Oh, and apologies for the irreverent topic title. Sorry I like AMD guys... Nvidia forever...

Aplogies for any bad vibes sent out guys ok? Just on a quest and looking for answers/glimmer of hope.

Most of the time, questions have to be asked to give an educated answer. If you don't supply all the information in your original post (this seldom ever happens) that is needed to
chew on before an answer can be given, questions about things the OP left out need to be asked.

And then there is this garbage: "oh and Nvidia trying to corner GPGPU with CUDA instead of going OpenCL". Did you even know that Nvidia chairs the OpenCL development group? I don't think you care,
but I'd like to see you get your fact a little straighter, and not jump down peoples throats who dare to ask you a question instead of giving you exactly what you want, right away. Answers.

You have your answer. 4650 is what you have. 4650 is where you will remain. You can try sending letters to AMD asking them to produce the 4830LP card you are searching for, but I thought you were concerned about the power draw on your 350W PSU? AFAIK, (correct me if I'm wrong guys) that would draw similar power as a 9800GT (which I believe is 55nm). In which case, you should write them asking for a low profile 40nm 4770. THAT would be a sweet little card to have. Better than 4830 in every way.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Sure that's why Rollo got banned
Keys had to leave as video forum mod
Several NVIDIA fans have gotten vacations for stepping even a smidgen out of line.
And any thread not favorable to ATI usually gets flamed until locked.

:roll:

To answer the original question. Maybe it's because of the cooling needed on the 48xx series that they don't have a higher end low profile card.

On the bright side of things this 4650 is only $40
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814131151

I imagine they could do a 4770, but due to the short supply it may be a while.

Maybe we should ban you, too; I was there and Rollo was DEFINITELY not a "smidgen" out of line, he was saying things that were blatenly false to get newbies to buy Nvidia cards. Keep this sort of stuff up and I'll be sure to put in a "recommendation" for you.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
I thought the 9800GT was based on 65nm tech (at least when the low profile sparkle card was released).
...
Then again, mobile chips are still being churned out so if you can stick a 4870 in a laptop my thinking is that making a low profile version with the same components shouldn't be THAT much of a stretch?

There are now "low power" designs for the 9600 GT and 9800 GT. These use 55nm cores with lowered voltages and of course a bit lower core clock speeds (by 50MHz, same memory speeds). Performance is pretty close to stock clocked normal cards. I don't know about the 9600 GT but IIRC I read somewhere that the 9800 GT "low power" draws around 66W.

Why I bring this up is that it is possible to use an existing PCB design and tweak it to become a "low power" card. I don't know what plans Sparkle and Galaxy have, but it is possible that they come out with these versions in low profile which would be a good alternative if you can't find faster low profile ATI based cards.

As for laptops, the ones with better GPUs are pretty darn expensive.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Nvidia trying to corner GPGPU with CUDA instead of going OpenCL plus I love AMD forever and want to have their babies).

Just like to point out ATi is the only major discrete GPU maker in the world without any driver support for consumers for OpenCL atm. If that is really an important factor for you, you may want to stay away from them and wait for Intel to release a part. Right now if you want a company that supports that particular open format, nVidia is your only choice.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Nvidia trying to corner GPGPU with CUDA instead of going OpenCL plus I love AMD forever and want to have their babies).

Just like to point out ATi is the only major discrete GPU maker in the world without any driver support for consumers for OpenCL atm. If that is really an important factor for you, you may want to stay away from them and wait for Intel to release a part. Right now if you want a company that supports that particular open format, nVidia is your only choice.

None of this matters, Windows 7 and Dx11 are just around the corner.
I have yet to meet a consumer that uses OpenCL anyways.

 

[BenSkywalker]

None of this matters, Windows 7 and Dx11 are just around the corner.
I have yet to meet a consumer that uses OpenCL anyways.

The OP mentioned it as something that was important to him. If OpenCL is important to him nVidia is his only choice right now as they are the only company offering consumers support on it. I'm not saying what is or isn't important, I'm simply applying the facts to the OP's raised points.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

None of this matters, Windows 7 and Dx11 are just around the corner.
I have yet to meet a consumer that uses OpenCL anyways.

The OP mentioned it as something that was important to him. If OpenCL is important to him nVidia is his only choice right now as they are the only company offering consumers support on it. I'm not saying what is or isn't important, I'm simply applying the facts to the OP's raised points.

And exactly how is OpenCL important to someone with a 4650?
I seriously believe these posts are an underground marketing attempt by nVidia to sour AMD in the mouths of forum posters. This is a pretty big forum, big enough they would focus on it-- they've done it before, this just may be a more covert attempt. I'm really getting sick of nVidia...

 

[Forumpanda]

I must admit that whenever I see people suggesting silly stuff such as DX Z.Y or little used feature X as a key selling point for a video card and pretty much straight up disregarding the entirety of the discussion up to that point, then I do get a little suspicious as to their motives.

I have no bias for any company, for hardware with measurable performance, CPUs or GPUs.
However when I read irrational fanboy posts (specially from an unnamed Intel fanatic in the CPU forum and an unnamed nVidia fanatic here in the GPU forum), I does actually make me less inclined to like the company, I am just a human being and I cannot control all my feelings.

In fact I am currently siding *not* with ATI or AMD, but just slightly against Intel and nVidia, simply because of the way certain posters here have made me not want to be 'be on their side'.
So read all my future posts with that in mind, I am not trying to hide any allegiance, but blatant fanboi posts actually do make me side against the company.

Sorry for going off topic, just trying to explain where I think many people on these forums are coming from if they seem to have a build in bias against Intel or nVidia, personally I think they are just attempting to distance them self from certain other posters here.

If it turns out that these posters are indeed receiving incentives from said companies(not limited to nV and Intel), to post what they do, then it is very much a shoot self in foot situation as far as I am concerned.

 

[soccerballtux]

^me too.

The concern is over the newbies that don't frequent this forum, that stumble upon a thread through google and see something like Wreckage's post "4xxx ATI series is really competition for g92 Nvidia cards", will go buy an Nvidia card, when at their pricepoint, ATI has the market thoroughly owned (speaking of the $130 4890's we saw a few weeks ago, competition was $200 gtx260-216). Not to mention that the 4890 is twice the performance of my g92 9800GT.

Wreckage it would seem has too many posts/day to have a normal job. It's not entirely unbelievable to think he could be paid by Nvidia to do it. I know Creative did that on their own forums...

I'll come out and admit I favor AMD (because we all need them around if we want cheap upgrades-- it's in our collective best interest) but I only recommend them if they hold the performance crown at a poster's given price range.

 

[TC91]

You guys seem to be attacking Wreckage quite a bit (I don't think he's attacked anyone like you guys are doing to him), something which I don't think should be allowed on these forums, but I don't think he's a focus member or whatever since if he was (no offense intended Wreckage), wouldn't you think he would be running something much better than an E6600 and a GTX 260? Just saying.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: TC91
You guys seem to be attacking Wreckage quite a bit (I don't think he's attacked anyone like you guys are doing to him), something which I don't think should be allowed on these forums, but I don't think he's a focus member or whatever since if he was (no offense intended Wreckage), wouldn't you think he would be running something much better than an E6600 and a GTX 260? Just saying.

I don't think it's an attack so much as people are just pointing out his posting habits. It isn't too hard to see what he's doing...

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: TC91
You guys seem to be attacking Wreckage quite a bit (I don't think he's attacked anyone like you guys are doing to him), something which I don't think should be allowed on these forums, but I don't think he's a focus member or whatever since if he was (no offense intended Wreckage), wouldn't you think he would be running something much better than an E6600 and a GTX 260? Just saying.

I don't think it's an attack so much as people are just pointing out his posting habits. It isn't too hard to see what he's doing...

And this is called..........?

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: TC91
You guys seem to be attacking Wreckage quite a bit (I don't think he's attacked anyone like you guys are doing to him), something which I don't think should be allowed on these forums,

It's allowed for certain people and not for others.

but I don't think he's a focus member or whatever since if he was (no offense intended Wreckage), wouldn't you think he would be running something much better than an E6600 and a GTX 260? Just saying.

Don't get me wrong I would love to get free hardware. But I don't, despite all the personal attacks and false accusations. I guess they have failed so long at trying to dispute my facts, they figure a witch hunt is their only hope in achieving a one view forum.

Besides NVIDIA does not need my help, they have 68% of the market.

 

[BenSkywalker]

And exactly how is OpenCL important to someone with a 4650?

If someone comes in here and says they want a GPU that comes with a bumper sticker I'll point out which ones I'm aware of that come with one. I don't know why the poster cares about OpenCL, but he said he did.

 

[akugami]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Don't get me wrong I would love to get free hardware. But I don't, despite all the personal attacks and false accusations. I guess they have failed so long at trying to dispute my facts, they figure a witch hunt is their only hope in achieving a one view forum.

Besides NVIDIA does not need my help, they have 68% of the market.

Yet you constantly feel the need to spread FUD against ATI. You also constantly feel the need to try to convince others you speak only the truth. Why is that?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: akugami

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Don't get me wrong I would love to get free hardware. But I don't, despite all the personal attacks and false accusations. I guess they have failed so long at trying to dispute my facts, they figure a witch hunt is their only hope in achieving a one view forum.

Besides NVIDIA does not need my help, they have 68% of the market.

Yet you constantly feel the need to spread FUD against ATI. You also constantly feel the need to try to convince others you speak only the truth. Why is that?

Wreckage gets jumped on whether he posts FUD or posts genuine news. There is no discrimination as to which is which. Check out that GTX260 1.1GHz thread.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: Keysplayr

Originally posted by: akugami

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Don't get me wrong I would love to get free hardware. But I don't, despite all the personal attacks and false accusations. I guess they have failed so long at trying to dispute my facts, they figure a witch hunt is their only hope in achieving a one view forum.

Besides NVIDIA does not need my help, they have 68% of the market.

Yet you constantly feel the need to spread FUD against ATI. You also constantly feel the need to try to convince others you speak only the truth. Why is that?

Wreckage gets jumped on whether he posts FUD or posts genuine news. There is no discrimination as to which is which. Check out that GTX260 1.1GHz thread.

Who's fault is that though? If you continue to post garbage fud over and over, drag down any AMD thread time and time again, then you post a legit news thread people might jump on it (even though they shouldn't of in that case) due to the reputation that has been created by that poster.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: Keysplayr

Originally posted by: akugami

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Don't get me wrong I would love to get free hardware. But I don't, despite all the personal attacks and false accusations. I guess they have failed so long at trying to dispute my facts, they figure a witch hunt is their only hope in achieving a one view forum.

Besides NVIDIA does not need my help, they have 68% of the market.

Yet you constantly feel the need to spread FUD against ATI. You also constantly feel the need to try to convince others you speak only the truth. Why is that?

Wreckage gets jumped on whether he posts FUD or posts genuine news. There is no discrimination as to which is which. Check out that GTX260 1.1GHz thread.

Who's fault is that though? If you continue to post garbage fud over and over, drag down any AMD thread time and time again, then you post a legit news thread people might jump on it (even though they shouldn't of in that case) due to the reputation that has been created by that poster.

You do that, and you're no better than you think he is. That's a fact.

 

[Mem]

Guys I was going to post on what I thought was right and wrong etc.. but to be honest it just make things worst,I suggest if any member has a problem/complaint etc... then take it up with a Senior Mod.

I know Video forum can be very frustrating sometimes for the obvious reasons we see ,however best thing is to take it up the proper way ie through a senior Mod with all respect to Keysplayr and other non senior Mods here.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: Keysplayr

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: Keysplayr

Originally posted by: akugami

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Don't get me wrong I would love to get free hardware. But I don't, despite all the personal attacks and false accusations. I guess they have failed so long at trying to dispute my facts, they figure a witch hunt is their only hope in achieving a one view forum.

Besides NVIDIA does not need my help, they have 68% of the market.

Yet you constantly feel the need to spread FUD against ATI. You also constantly feel the need to try to convince others you speak only the truth. Why is that?

Wreckage gets jumped on whether he posts FUD or posts genuine news. There is no discrimination as to which is which. Check out that GTX260 1.1GHz thread.

Who's fault is that though? If you continue to post garbage fud over and over, drag down any AMD thread time and time again, then you post a legit news thread people might jump on it (even though they shouldn't of in that case) due to the reputation that has been created by that poster.

You do that, and you're no better than you think he is. That's a fact.

No, that's an opinion. And one I disagree with. For the record I didn't say anything negative in that thread. But I won't say anything more on the subject here... this is already too far off topic.

 

[mmnno]

Originally posted by: Keysplayr

Originally posted by: akugami

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Don't get me wrong I would love to get free hardware. But I don't, despite all the personal attacks and false accusations. I guess they have failed so long at trying to dispute my facts, they figure a witch hunt is their only hope in achieving a one view forum.

Besides NVIDIA does not need my help, they have 68% of the market.

Yet you constantly feel the need to spread FUD against ATI. You also constantly feel the need to try to convince others you speak only the truth. Why is that?

Wreckage gets jumped on whether he posts FUD or posts genuine news. There is no discrimination as to which is which. Check out that GTX260 1.1GHz thread.

Given his history, there's no need to discriminate between the two.

 

[taltamir]

Q: Why doesn't ATI have the best low profile gpu?
A: Because not enough people buy those to justify the development cost, and because losing half the physical space of the card requires significant redesign and thus costly development per card.