Why doesn't ATI have the best low profile gpu?

[Selbatrim]

Since last year I have been patiently awaiting a killer low profile graphics solution from my dear friends at AMD and yet, every week I get disappointed.

What I cannot understand is this: If they can created the smallest chips with the lowest power requirements why on earth can't someone put out an AMD 9800 low profile killer?

I can't understand why the best AMDs partners can come up with in the low profile segment is the Apollo 4650? I personally jumped the gun by a couple of weeks and bought the Sapphire 4650 LP and while it made me a lot happier than the integrated HD3200 it was always intended to be a stop gap solution until AMD delivered the low profile killer blow with something 4830ish.

But alas, weeks and months have passed and yet I suffer with my 4650.

Now, from what I cn gather the 4650 is REALLY hampered by slow 128bit ram. Actually overclocking the GPU on my 4650 hardly makes any impact at all so I've left it at stock...

Anyone more hardware minded out there than me able to tell me if there is any hardware reason why an AMD partner can't release a low profile card with, say, 256bit GDDR3 ram (or better). Is a 256bit bus wasted on GDDR3?

 

[TC91]

What's wrong with the low profile 9800GT?

 

[Selbatrim]

That's kind of irrelevant you know... but ok... it's gonna toast a 350w PSU... or at least torture it until it cries and dies and I want an AMD gpu as the only gfx card I have ever owned that's died was an Nvidia (oh and Nvidia trying to corner GPGPU with CUDA instead of going OpenCL plus I love AMD forever and want to have their babies).

I just want an AMD card ok? So can we drop the "why not Nvidia" discussion?

 

[hans007]

well its not really that amd makes the low profile GPUs, there has to be enough demand for someone to make a reference design of it. i'm sure eventually they will have a 4770 or at lesat 4750 with gddr3 once supplies of those chips re more plentiful.

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
... it's gonna toast a 350w PSU... or at least torture it until it cries and dies

A 9800gt low profile uses around 85w. (7a) Probably less. There is a low profile 9600gt that doesn't have a 6-pin connector. Probably comes in around 60w. (5a)

The 4830 is no power saver. Think 85w. You're probably going to have to wait for a 2nd generation 4770 before you get a sub 75w low profile ATI card.

All of these cards, including a 4850, would run on a decent 350w PSU.

 

[TC91]

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
That's kind of irrelevant you know... but ok... it's gonna toast a 350w PSU... or at least torture it until it cries and dies and I want an AMD gpu as the only gfx card I have ever owned that's died was an Nvidia (oh and Nvidia trying to corner GPGPU with CUDA instead of going OpenCL plus I love AMD forever and want to have their babies).

I just want an AMD card ok? So can we drop the "why not Nvidia" discussion?

For the record, a low profile 9800GT won't "toast" a quality 350watt psu. If it did toast a 350watt psu, it would have to an extemely low quality or extremely old psu on its way out.

If I was to guess about why there aren't any low profile ATI cards in that performance bracket, I would first say that any of the RV770 or RV790 GPUs are far too power hungry for a low profile card (and would definitely use much much more power than the low profile 9800GT ).

If there was to be an ATI card in that performance bracket in low profile, then it likely would be a card using the RV740 GPU, which are in extremely low quantities like hans007 mentioned and you will have to wait until there are enough cards to meet the demand for the standard profile/reference design cards before a low profile one comes along.

That or most of the ATI partners are either too cheap, cash strapped to spend money for the R&D of a low profile card in that performance bracket, or they are just incompetent. Might also be why they have such short warranties.

EDIT: Schmide beat me to it

 

[Farmer]

Originally posted by: Schmide

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
... it's gonna toast a 350w PSU... or at least torture it until it cries and dies

A 9800gt low profile uses around 85w. (7a) Probably less. There is a low profile 9600gt that doesn't have a 6-pin connector. Probably comes in around 60w. (5a)

The 4830 is no power saver. Think 85w. You're probably going to have to wait for a 2nd generation 4770 before you get a sub 75w low profile ATI card.

All of these cards, including a 4850, would run on a decent 350w PSU.

I'll second that. The hype about "you need a 600W PSU to run with any today's graphics cards" is mostly due to horror stories from people running crappy, over-rated (power rating, that is) PSUs (the original Ultra units come to mind), and the myth that newer video cards always consume more power (that may sometimes be the case with the top-end cards, but certainly not the mid range).

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
That's kind of irrelevant you know... but ok... it's gonna toast a 350w PSU... or at least torture it until it cries and dies and I want an AMD gpu as the only gfx card I have ever owned that's died was an Nvidia (oh and Nvidia trying to corner GPGPU with CUDA instead of going OpenCL plus I love AMD forever and want to have their babies).

I just want an AMD card ok? So can we drop the "why not Nvidia" discussion?

The 9800GT looks to be the best low profile option there is out there right now, so it really wasn't a bad suggestion seeing as low profile cards are quite limited. If you prefer an AMD card that's fine, just say that, no need to get defensive.

I would imagine that eventually some 4770's or 4850's will find there way into the low profile market, but as of now you're stuck with a 4650 or looking towards Nvidia. My guess is AMD's partners aren't breaking their back to make high performance low profile cards, probably not a huge market.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
That's kind of irrelevant you know... but ok... it's gonna toast a 350w PSU... or at least torture it until it cries and dies and I want an AMD gpu as the only gfx card I have ever owned that's died was an Nvidia (oh and Nvidia trying to corner GPGPU with CUDA instead of going OpenCL plus I love AMD forever and want to have their babies).

I just want an AMD card ok? So can we drop the "why not Nvidia" discussion?

Dont worry, you are at home here.

 

[terentenet]

Why do you always have to love the smaller business? I see alot of love for AMD/ATI here at Anandtech. Just get a card that can play what you want at the settings you want and don't look at the manufacturer. It doesn't really matter in the big picture wether you buy from AMD or Nvidia, it's not like they're gonna build you a statue for fidelity.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
That's kind of irrelevant you know... but ok... it's gonna toast a 350w PSU... or at least torture it until it cries and dies and I want an AMD gpu as the only gfx card I have ever owned that's died was an Nvidia (oh and Nvidia trying to corner GPGPU with CUDA instead of going OpenCL plus I love AMD forever and want to have their babies).

I just want an AMD card ok? So can we drop the "why not Nvidia" discussion?

Dont worry, you are at home here.

Really? I thought this forum was just for praising Physx and Nvidia's market share. Isn't a mod for one of the technology forums an Nvidia focus group member? I think the Nvidia fan boys make a lot more noise here than the AMD fan boys...

 

[alyarb]

no, rest assured that shit slingers from both sides of this enchanted lagoon have netted equal servings of ridicule and embarrassment from the realists. If you can't have a realistic attitude about nobody giving a rats ass about low-profile performance, the 4600 is what you deserve.

 

[abs0lut3]

Originally posted by: alyarb
no, rest assured that shit slingers from both sides of this enchanted lagoon have netted equal servings of ridicule and embarrassment from the realists. If you can't have a realistic attitude about nobody giving a rats ass about low-profile performance, the 4600 is what you deserve.

+1

I've been user of both. Right now on Nvidia but waiting to get some AMD (4850 came out unannounced two weeks after I bought my 9600GT for my own b'day present!) when P55 comes along.

I think TS needs to ask that in AMD forum instead because I would like to know that answer as well...

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
That's kind of irrelevant you know... but ok... it's gonna toast a 350w PSU... or at least torture it until it cries and dies and I want an AMD gpu as the only gfx card I have ever owned that's died was an Nvidia (oh and Nvidia trying to corner GPGPU with CUDA instead of going OpenCL plus I love AMD forever and want to have their babies).

I just want an AMD card ok? So can we drop the "why not Nvidia" discussion?

Dont worry, you are at home here.

Really? I thought this forum was just for praising Physx and Nvidia's market share. Isn't a mod for one of the technology forums an Nvidia focus group member? I think the Nvidia fan boys make a lot more noise here than the AMD fan boys...

You thought dead wrong then. Like OCGuy, your comment was off the cuff. Didn't think it through before posting. This is the kind of bs that needs to stop. THINK people.

Besides the fact that the OP has already set the negative undertones from his second post. Not only does he want to know why doesn't ATI have a low profile GPU, he wants to know why they don't have the best. Nobody picked up on that? Anyway, a few posters gave solid comments on what the OP should do. Settle for the 4670, or a 9800GT. Those are his options.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
That's kind of irrelevant you know... but ok... it's gonna toast a 350w PSU... or at least torture it until it cries and dies and I want an AMD gpu as the only gfx card I have ever owned that's died was an Nvidia (oh and Nvidia trying to corner GPGPU with CUDA instead of going OpenCL plus I love AMD forever and want to have their babies).

I just want an AMD card ok? So can we drop the "why not Nvidia" discussion?

Dont worry, you are at home here.

Really? I thought this forum was just for praising Physx and Nvidia's market share. Isn't a mod for one of the technology forums an Nvidia focus group member? I think the Nvidia fan boys make a lot more noise here than the AMD fan boys...

There's been several Nvidia payed members that I can think of. If anything this is a pro-Nvidia forum.
The rest of us try to balance it out because we see the bigger picture-- Nvidia is in no danger of going out of business. If we as the consumer want new and faster cards, then we want AMD to sick around.

So I go out of my way to promote AMD if the do have the faster card. If it's a slower card and not worth the bang/buck, then I don't promote them.

OP's wording, as the guy above me pointed out, is very anti-AMD.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: Keysplayr

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
That's kind of irrelevant you know... but ok... it's gonna toast a 350w PSU... or at least torture it until it cries and dies and I want an AMD gpu as the only gfx card I have ever owned that's died was an Nvidia (oh and Nvidia trying to corner GPGPU with CUDA instead of going OpenCL plus I love AMD forever and want to have their babies).

I just want an AMD card ok? So can we drop the "why not Nvidia" discussion?

Dont worry, you are at home here.

Really? I thought this forum was just for praising Physx and Nvidia's market share. Isn't a mod for one of the technology forums an Nvidia focus group member? I think the Nvidia fan boys make a lot more noise here than the AMD fan boys...

You thought dead wrong then. Like OCGuy, your comment was off the cuff. Didn't think it through before posting. This is the kind of bs that needs to stop. THINK people.

Besides the fact that the OP has already set the negative undertones from his second post. Not only does he want to know why doesn't ATI have a low profile GPU, he wants to know why they don't have the best. Nobody picked up on that? Anyway, a few posters gave solid comments on what the OP should do. Settle for the 4670, or a 9800GT. Those are his options.

Take a look at just about any pro-AMD thread that is started here and watch it get dragged down by the same green fan boys over and over again. Before you tell me I'm just some pro-AMD fan boy take a look at what card I suggested as the best option in this thread to the OP. He can get a superior 9800GT or if he's that dead set on AMD he can get a much weaker 4650 and keep his brand loyalty.

 

[Wreckage]

Sure that's why Rollo got banned
Keys had to leave as video forum mod
Several NVIDIA fans have gotten vacations for stepping even a smidgen out of line.
And any thread not favorable to ATI usually gets flamed until locked.

:roll:

To answer the original question. Maybe it's because of the cooling needed on the 48xx series that they don't have a higher end low profile card.

On the bright side of things this 4650 is only $40
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814131151

I imagine they could do a 4770, but due to the short supply it may be a while.

 

[KingstonU]

Integrated HD4200 has just been released, Anandtech is really impressed by it in their review. Not sure how it stacks against the 4650 or 9800.

 

[allies]

The 9800GT is your best choice if you want performance and low profile. What was the brand of card that died on you? Might've just been that...

If you're completely against nvidia, get a 4650 as previously mentioned.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: Keysplayr

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
That's kind of irrelevant you know... but ok... it's gonna toast a 350w PSU... or at least torture it until it cries and dies and I want an AMD gpu as the only gfx card I have ever owned that's died was an Nvidia (oh and Nvidia trying to corner GPGPU with CUDA instead of going OpenCL plus I love AMD forever and want to have their babies).

I just want an AMD card ok? So can we drop the "why not Nvidia" discussion?

Dont worry, you are at home here.

Really? I thought this forum was just for praising Physx and Nvidia's market share. Isn't a mod for one of the technology forums an Nvidia focus group member? I think the Nvidia fan boys make a lot more noise here than the AMD fan boys...

You thought dead wrong then. Like OCGuy, your comment was off the cuff. Didn't think it through before posting. This is the kind of bs that needs to stop. THINK people.

Besides the fact that the OP has already set the negative undertones from his second post. Not only does he want to know why doesn't ATI have a low profile GPU, he wants to know why they don't have the best. Nobody picked up on that?Anyway, a few posters gave solid comments on what the OP should do. Settle for the 4670, or a 9800GT. Those are his options.

I think most members here are tired of all the flaming threads,some are flame bait others so biased without sensible statements I don't even bother posting since its not worth the argument/bait or bother,end of the day I'm glad there is a choice and we have more then one major company to choose from,competition is good for the buyer and gamer.


I miss Matrox in the gaming maket since it would be nice to have a three horse race rather then the boring usual two ,but times have changed and not always for the better

As to the main thread question well I think you guys got it covered with 9800GT for Nvidia or 4670 for AMD/ATi.
I know I babbled a bit but miss the really good old days.

 

[akugami]

Originally posted by: terentenet
Why do you always have to love the smaller business? I see alot of love for AMD/ATI here at Anandtech. Just get a card that can play what you want at the settings you want and don't look at the manufacturer. It doesn't really matter in the big picture wether you buy from AMD or Nvidia, it's not like they're gonna build you a statue for fidelity.

QFT.

If nVidia provides a superior product in this category there is no reason not to go with them. The OP is being ridiculous in his insistence on only ATI products.

The other issue as someone else noted is that there has to be demand for the product before someone will release it. Now, if there was a ton of demand for low profile and high performance cards I'm sure that ATI and its partners would comply. Consider that even though nVidia who has a better low profile card out has one that is using older technology and not based on its newer G200 cores. It's a niche market that usually takes extra engineering (cooler design, PCB) to release a product. Expect it to be extremely limited.

I look at bang for the buck but if price, performance and other factors are roughly equal I'd choose the smaller company because I support competition. If one competitor dies, we likely will get it in the rear as prices go up. We've seen it when Intel was killing AMD before AMD had their first real success in the Athlons and we saw it when nVidia was dominating ATI.

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Sure that's why Rollo got banned
Keys had to leave as video forum mod
Several NVIDIA fans have gotten vacations for stepping even a smidgen out of line.
And any thread not favorable to ATI usually gets flamed until locked.

:roll:

To answer the original question. Maybe it's because of the cooling needed on the 48xx series that they don't have a higher end low profile card.

On the bright side of things this 4650 is only $40
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814131151

I imagine they could do a 4770, but due to the short supply it may be a while.

Let me refresh your memory. Rollo got banned for breaking the rules and being detrimental to the forums. He was allowed back on certain conditions which he broke. He thus got banned once again. And he isn't the only one that needs to be banned in the opinion of myself and many others. This issue has been beaten to death many times. Attempting to change the events surrounding it to suit the "Anandtech.com is against nVidia fans" crackpot theory won't help. The facts speak for themselves.

If I recall correctly, Keysplayr decided it was in his best interest to not be the video forum moderator because his affiliation with nVidia might become a divisive factor. In other words, he didn't do it because of outcry against him, he did it because he didn't want there to be an outcry in the first place.

There have been plenty of pro nVidia threads that do not get locked or flamed by ATI fans. There are almost no pro ATI threads that don't get crapped on and by the same one or two persons. There have probably been just as many pro ATI persons on these forums that have been vacationed or banned as there have been nVidia fans and likely for the same transgressions. Picking and choosing your stats to try to prop up a ridiculous claim on your part as usual.

There is, in general, no pro ATI bias on these forums. If you feel there is one, you are free to voice it and provide proof or if you feel it won't help then you're free to leave the forums and post in a more neutral or more pro nVidia forum.

This is a semi-public community. You are allowed nearly free reign to do or say as you wish provided you follow certain rules. If you fail to do so then that is your fault. I'm speaking as someone who has been banned once on these forums. I'm not above the rules and I should not be.

 

[Selbatrim]

First off, thanks everyone for a spirited discussion as always whenever graphics are mentioned. Now, for those of you who didn't get it my post about having AMDs babies is obviously a joke. I'm male so that's not possible... DAAMIT...

Secondly, if I can draw your attention to my OP I have the 4650. I use it, I don't love it, but it works. My post is not about which low profile card has the highest performance. I know that. I already said that didn't I? (checks OP) Ok, I didn't outright say it but I mentioned the 9800 in a sort of "the thing to beat" category.

So, I get it guys, most of you wouldn't be caught dead with a low profile card, but I went down that road as I have a wife and a small apartment and a need to keep my machine small and quiet etc.

Couple that with a bad history with Nvidia and a bias towards the underdog (so kill me) I wanted an ATI chip.

Now, the Sapphire 4650 LP is not bad, but what is stopping it more than anything is RAM, so, I asked the hardware minded of you if you knew if there was some huge reason why putting faster ram on a card (not touching the GPU, which is not the bottleneck here) would be so difficult?

Ok, so maybe the performance low profile segment is small, but low profile and integrated is the majority of the GPU market (I don't know the exact figure) so obviously that should be the meat of R&D right?

Sorry for setting a negative tone, but the first reply I got, within 3 minutes of posting, was a question, not an answer. Oh, and apologies for the irreverent topic title. Sorry I like AMD guys... Nvidia forever...

Aplogies for any bad vibes sent out guys ok? Just on a quest and looking for answers/glimmer of hope.

 

[akugami]

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
...
So, I get it guys, most of you wouldn't be caught dead with a low profile card, but I went down that road as I have a wife and a small apartment and a need to keep my machine small and quiet etc.

Couple that with a bad history with Nvidia and a bias towards the underdog (so kill me) I wanted an ATI chip.
...

It's not that we wouldn't be caught dead with a low profile card. Heck, some of us would love better selections in low profile cards. It's just that you have to understand that low profile cards are a niche market with very limited selections.

Generally I've had good experiences with both ATI and nVidia cards. Of course I research my purchases as thoroughly as possible.

 

[footballrunner800]

Originally posted by: akugami

Originally posted by: terentenet
Why do you always have to love the smaller business? I see alot of love for AMD/ATI here at Anandtech. Just get a card that can play what you want at the settings you want and don't look at the manufacturer. It doesn't really matter in the big picture wether you buy from AMD or Nvidia, it's not like they're gonna build you a statue for fidelity.

QFT.

If nVidia provides a superior product in this category there is no reason not to go with them. The OP is being ridiculous in his insistence on only ATI products.

The other issue as someone else noted is that there has to be demand for the product before someone will release it. Now, if there was a ton of demand for low profile and high performance cards I'm sure that ATI and its partners would comply. Consider that even though nVidia who has a better low profile card out has one that is using older technology and not based on its newer G200 cores. It's a niche market that usually takes extra engineering (cooler design, PCB) to release a product. Expect it to be extremely limited.

I look at bang for the buck but if price, performance and other factors are roughly equal I'd choose the smaller company because I support competition. If one competitor dies, we likely will get it in the rear as prices go up. We've seen it when Intel was killing AMD before AMD had their first real success in the Athlons and we saw it when nVidia was dominating ATI.

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Sure that's why Rollo got banned
Keys had to leave as video forum mod
Several NVIDIA fans have gotten vacations for stepping even a smidgen out of line.
And any thread not favorable to ATI usually gets flamed until locked.

:roll:

To answer the original question. Maybe it's because of the cooling needed on the 48xx series that they don't have a higher end low profile card.

On the bright side of things this 4650 is only $40
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814131151

I imagine they could do a 4770, but due to the short supply it may be a while.

Let me refresh your memory. Rollo got banned for breaking the rules and being detrimental to the forums. He was allowed back on certain conditions which he broke. He thus got banned once again. And he isn't the only one that needs to be banned in the opinion of myself and many others. This issue has been beaten to death many times. Attempting to change the events surrounding it to suit the "Anandtech.com is against nVidia fans" crackpot theory won't help. The facts speak for themselves.

If I recall correctly, Keysplayr decided it was in his best interest to not be the video forum moderator because his affiliation with nVidia might become a divisive factor. In other words, he didn't do it because of outcry against him, he did it because he didn't want there to be an outcry in the first place.

There have been plenty of pro nVidia threads that do not get locked or flamed by ATI fans. There are almost no pro ATI threads that don't get crapped on and by the same one or two persons. There have probably been just as many pro ATI persons on these forums that have been vacationed or banned as there have been nVidia fans and likely for the same transgressions. Picking and choosing your stats to try to prop up a ridiculous claim on your part as usual.

There is, in general, no pro ATI bias on these forums. If you feel there is one, you are free to voice it and provide proof or if you feel it won't help then you're free to leave the forums and post in a more neutral or more pro nVidia forum.

This is a semi-public community. You are allowed nearly free reign to do or say as you wish provided you follow certain rules. If you fail to do so then that is your fault. I'm speaking as someone who has been banned once on these forums. I'm not above the rules and I should not be.

it was a little off topic but so true.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: Farmer
The hype about "you need a 600W PSU to run with any today's graphics cards" is mostly due to horror stories from people running crappy, over-rated (power rating, that is) PSUs (the original Ultra units come to mind), and the myth that newer video cards always consume more power (that may sometimes be the case with the top-end cards, but certainly not the mid range).

That's about it, plus many people recommending that type of power supplies on forums because "I never had a problem with it." Graphics card companies know this and recommend high wattage units to overcome it, because people WILL buy cheap power supplies and use them on higher end graphics cards.

Originally posted by: akugami
This is a semi-public community. You are allowed nearly free reign to do or say as you wish provided you follow certain rules. If you fail to do so then that is your fault. I'm speaking as someone who has been banned once on these forums. I'm not above the rules and I should not be.

Them's words of wisdom if I ever heard any.

Originally posted by: Selbatrim
I asked the hardware minded of you if you knew if there was some huge reason why putting faster ram on a card (not touching the GPU, which is not the bottleneck here) would be so difficult? I mean, they do it for laptops all the time right? Ok, so maybe the performance low profile segment is small, but low profile and integrated is the majority of the GPU market (I don't know the exact figure) so obviously that should be the meat of R&D right?

There's a lot of bias and inertia among manufacturers. Heck, how long has it taken for true enthusiast level micro ATX motherboards to show up on the market? I was wanting them in 2002 but only around 2005 did we get somewhat reasonable mATX boards (those Biostar Tforce6100 boards). Early this year was probably the start of the current trend for companies to make pretty darn good enthusiast level micro ATX boards. Heck, now Asus, EVGA, MSI and DFI all have micro ATX boards for Core i7 that do SLI/Crossfire and RAID, and just about anything else you'd want (overclocking, Firewire, eSATA, etc.).

These days the market is tough on graphics card manufacturers and they often can't justify straying from reference designs. Those low profile 9600 GT and 9800 GT are not reference designs. Props to those companies (Galaxy and Sparkle?) but their costs on those are actually higher than a normal card due to low volume and more PCB layers. ATI and NVIDIA only does low profile reference designs for low end products because they know the numbers don't support higher end products this way. Heck, besides people who actually need low profile cards in systems with decent power supplies, who else will buy one?

Thing is, besides the manufacturers, the consumer/enthusiast - that is you and me - have a lot of bias and inertia in our spending habits.