Why doesn't anyone blame Ronald Reagan?

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AFMatt

Senior member
Aug 14, 2008
248
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: microbial
Reaganomics did not work under Reagan.

GWB resurrected reaganomics and it was proven not to work yet again.

The next time some politician tells you that the best way to help the average working American (Joe-the-plumber or Jane-six-pack) is by giving tax breaks and incentives to the very wealthy, please tell them to go F. themselves. It's patently and demonstrably false.

Reagonomics is dead. R.I.P. forever.
You understand that the Bush tax cuts went to EVERYONE, right?

And on a percentage of income basis the poor and middle class got a bigger tax cut than the rich.

Look at the IRS tax tables. The 'rich' pay a higher percentage of overall taxes now than at any time in our history.

You really expect any democrat to acknowldge that? Wont happen. They spend more time pointing out that the rich get "richer" while not taking the time to see cuts across the board cut applies to everyone. They get to keep more of their money, and I get to keep more of my money. Everyone wins. I dont care if x% of millions is a hell of a lot more than x% of $70K. A cut is a cut, why should we discriminate who gets it?
All this "the rich get richer" BS needs to go. A tax cut for everyone makes everyone richer. Raising the taxes on just the rich will, in some way, make everyone below them poorer.
 

BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
1,055
0
0
In Reagan's time, there was no Fox News, shamelessly and cynically manipulating popular opinion for reactionary purposes. Cable news and partisan news, 24 hours a day, wasn't the norm, yet.

The GOP itself was different then, too. The pathological economics of supply-side hadn't yet come to dominate the Republican Party, so despite the rhetoric of trickle-down economics, the boot in the face of Banana Republicanism that supply-side represents wasn't yet the coin of the realm among Republicans. There were still actual conservatives and liberals and moderates in the GOP back then, folks who'd served during Nixon's reign and who were wary of unimpeded presidential authority. There were Republicans who still had the ability to write good legislation and work with the other side, pursuing national interest over party interest, who understood that you still had to pay taxes to get things done.

Our supercharged atmosphere these days has the airwaves full of partisan drumbeating for the Unitary Executive and hysteria for any wrongthink that appears, while pretend Democrats offer only the feeblest, most token of resistance to the most rogue presidency in American history, and an ideologically goosestepping (and far less politically diverse) GOP strains to ramrod a deeply reactionary agenda down America's throat. I imagine somebody actually like Reagan wouldn't have found this environment appealing.

Reagan tried to rhetorically unify an American "Us" against a Communist "Them" - but today's GOP has set itself up as the only real "Us" and everybody who opposes the GOP as "Them," and, by and large, the DINOs have let this happen, as has the LINO (Liberal in name only) media. Bush's attempts to buttress his maladministration with Reagan's ghost only highlights how unlike Reagan his tenure has been.

 

BigDH01

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2005
1,631
88
91
Originally posted by: AFMatt
Reagan inherited an economy in far worse shape than what we are dealing with now, and turned it around. 1982-1990 = second longest period of straight economic growth in our history. Did government spending go up? Sure it did. Did % of gov't spending compared to GDP go up? Nope. Dems will pick him apart because he didn't believe in government handouts.
It is a fact that economic growth averaged 3+% during the Reagan years compared to 2.1 average for the following Bush and Clinton years. Median family income grew by $4,000 during his presidency, then lost $1500 after. Interest rates, which were sky high when he took over for Carter, inflation (also sky high), and unemployment fell faster under Reagan than they did after he left. Unfortunately, some of Reagan's tax cuts caused the defecit to explode near the end. Obama's plan would likely have a very similar effect in that area.

Under Reagan, the US went from the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor nation. An argument can certainly be made that our growth under Reagan and post-Reagan is largely the result of our accumulation of debt, both personal and federal. Even Reagan hated the amount of new debt.

There was also a change in personal behavior. People went from saving to consuming, thereby encouraging economic growth.

The interest rates were high in an attempt to reduce inflation. This was known as the Volcker shocks. After he felt inflation was controlled, he lowered interest rates. He had far more impact in this area than Reagan did, just as Greenspan had far more to do with the recent problems than Clinton did or W does.

You also have to account for exogenous events such as the energy crisis under Carter that helped spur inflation.

In other words, lots of things happened during the Reagan-era that contributed to economic growth. Reagan's policies, Volcker, human behavior, and decrease in the price of oil.

I personally believe that 10 years from now that Reaganomics will be seen as a failure. This includes both trickle-down and supply-side economics. Trickle-down has done nothing but concentrate wealth in this country and supply-side has created massive amounts of public debt. In my opinion, the only reason the current system has lasted as long as it has is because of a massive amount of debt. The reality is that consumers don't have the required real money to support supply-side any longer. I mean honestly, the government is selling 900 billion in bonds just to get money into the hands of lenders who can then loan to strained consumers. It has put us in a very precarious position. If the consumer debt train stops, the whole game is over.

But people need to remember that bad fiscal policy can be somewhat counteracted by good monetary policy. In this way, policy decisions can be dampened. However, poor fiscal policy can be exacerbated by mad monetary policy. Did I mention I dislike Greenspan?

Also, Reagan did support at least some handouts. The earned income tax credit being one example.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: AFMatt
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: microbial
Reaganomics did not work under Reagan.

GWB resurrected reaganomics and it was proven not to work yet again.

The next time some politician tells you that the best way to help the average working American (Joe-the-plumber or Jane-six-pack) is by giving tax breaks and incentives to the very wealthy, please tell them to go F. themselves. It's patently and demonstrably false.

Reagonomics is dead. R.I.P. forever.
You understand that the Bush tax cuts went to EVERYONE, right?

And on a percentage of income basis the poor and middle class got a bigger tax cut than the rich.


Look at the IRS tax tables. The 'rich' pay a higher percentage of overall taxes now than at any time in our history.

You really expect any democrat to acknowldge that? Wont happen. They spend more time pointing out that the rich get "richer" while not taking the time to see cuts across the board cut applies to everyone. They get to keep more of their money, and I get to keep more of my money. Everyone wins. I dont care if x% of millions is a hell of a lot more than x% of $70K. A cut is a cut, why should we discriminate who gets it?
All this "the rich get richer" BS needs to go. A tax cut for everyone makes everyone richer. Raising the taxes on just the rich will, in some way, make everyone below them poorer.

Just because you guys keep promoting this farce does not make it true.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,635
2,897
136
Well, aside from the fact that Reagan saved America from Jimmy Carter (who's definitely top 3 on the list of 'Worst Presidents Ever'), he gets no blame from me because his actions as President had no DIRECT effect on the troubles we have now. The economic troubles of today can be blamed on Dubya, Clinton, Herbert Dubya, Congress, and the Federal Reserve.

If they EMULATED Reagan's poor policies, that's unfortunate but not his fault. Hell, that's like saying a murderer is responsible for a copycat killer's victims.
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
Originally posted by: BigDH01
Originally posted by: AFMatt
Reagan inherited an economy in far worse shape than what we are dealing with now, and turned it around. 1982-1990 = second longest period of straight economic growth in our history. Did government spending go up? Sure it did. Did % of gov't spending compared to GDP go up? Nope. Dems will pick him apart because he didn't believe in government handouts.
It is a fact that economic growth averaged 3+% during the Reagan years compared to 2.1 average for the following Bush and Clinton years. Median family income grew by $4,000 during his presidency, then lost $1500 after. Interest rates, which were sky high when he took over for Carter, inflation (also sky high), and unemployment fell faster under Reagan than they did after he left. Unfortunately, some of Reagan's tax cuts caused the defecit to explode near the end. Obama's plan would likely have a very similar effect in that area.

Under Reagan, the US went from the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor nation. An argument can certainly be made that our growth under Reagan and post-Reagan is largely the result of our accumulation of debt, both personal and federal. Even Reagan hated the amount of new debt.

There was also a change in personal behavior. People went from saving to consuming, thereby encouraging economic growth.

The interest rates were high in an attempt to reduce inflation. This was known as the Volcker shocks. After he felt inflation was controlled, he lowered interest rates. He had far more impact in this area than Reagan did, just as Greenspan had far more to do with the recent problems than Clinton did or W does.

You also have to account for exogenous events such as the energy crisis under Carter that helped spur inflation.

In other words, lots of things happened during the Reagan-era that contributed to economic growth. Reagan's policies, Volcker, human behavior, and decrease in the price of oil.

I personally believe that 10 years from now that Reaganomics will be seen as a failure. This includes both trickle-down and supply-side economics. Trickle-down has done nothing but concentrate wealth in this country and supply-side has created massive amounts of public debt. In my opinion, the only reason the current system has lasted as long as it has is because of a massive amount of debt. The reality is that consumers don't have the required real money to support supply-side any longer. I mean honestly, the government is selling 900 billion in bonds just to get money into the hands of lenders who can then loan to strained consumers. It has put us in a very precarious position. If the consumer debt train stops, the whole game is over.

But people need to remember that bad fiscal policy can be somewhat counteracted by good monetary policy. In this way, policy decisions can be dampened. However, poor fiscal policy can be exacerbated by mad monetary policy. Did I mention I dislike Greenspan?

Also, Reagan did support at least some handouts. The earned income tax credit being one example.

Read my post on page one. The author (Nouriel Roubini) says almost exactly what you just said.

"So, in conclusion the verdict from history and empirical evidence is quite clear. Supply side economics is "voodoo economics". Reductions in tax rates (starting from initial moderate tax rate levels) do not siginificantly increase labor supply and savings, do not increase economic growth, do not raise total tax revenue and do not reduce budget deficits. Their likely effect on the level and growth rate on output is close to zero while they lead to significantly larger budget deficits. "
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Reagan Economis were modeled after Carnagie and his Steel Empire. Reagan's ideas were not new.

There have been a few presidents since then if you have not noticed.

Clinton was in office for 8 years. How come it is not his fault?
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
Reagan Economis were modeled after Carnagie and his Steel Empire. Reagan's ideas were not new.

There have been a few presidents since then if you have not noticed.

Clinton was in office for 8 years. How come it is not his fault?

It is not any single person's fault.
 

Toasthead

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2001
6,621
0
0
Originally posted by: Kadarin
I get the impression that true conservatives in the Republican party are starting to realize this. We'll see if this amounts to anything over the next few years.

I blame FDR