Because it took them 3 years to build and the best they could do is a 3D version of Starcraft. :|
I actually thought War3 was too newbie friendly. You could tear through the ranks just because you knew how to play and you copied build orders and creep patterns from watching replays. Replays really left very little to the imagination. And then there was autocast, and static defense took the edge out of rushing. I use to watch top replays, and the game was pretty ridiculous because people would skip tier one completely since they knew static defense would hold up and 2 heroes could creep efficiently.
My friends and I teamed up in AT and it got even easier, because we did the exact same thing regardless of map or enemy race. We even beat the number 2 or 3 team, even though they had 100s of more games together. It just didn't matter what the situation was, because you would almost certainly do the same thing. Hero rush then creep, or keep the pressure on. What was your opponent gonna do? If a newbie, stay at home and not creep, if a better player, he would be creeping also.
The game was easy until the pro level I think, then it wasn't fun. Hunts use to absolutely dominate, then orc casters, then human casters... Offensive towerers would own until the patch, then creep towerers.. I haven't payed attention to it lately but I'm sure there is one optimal strategy and build that the #1 player uses without fail. If not, then congrats to Bliz for balancing it out.
I think the biggest problem with War3 is that its just too stagnant. You knew what you were going to do while the screen loaded. Yah, micro is what makes the game impossible for newbies, as people tend to freeze while watchign armies fight, but I think the lack of choices early game is what maded it fail for me.
Starcraft is many many times better than WC3.
Anyone that thinks that starcraft is only about building as many units as they can and attacking is a newb. That's one reason starcraft is better. It has both micro AND macro. WC3 is all about microing little gay skirmishes that usually end with someone running away. It's so much slower paced it takes a lot of the excitment out of the game. Most people just like it cause it looks cool, which is their perogative. I on the other hand, prefer gameplay.
Btw if any of you newbs wanna play some sc, lemme know.
^^
Anyone that thinks that starcraft is only about building as many units as they can and attacking is a newb. That's one reason starcraft is better. It has both micro AND macro. WC3 is all about microing little gay skirmishes that usually end with someone running away. It's so much slower paced it takes a lot of the excitment out of the game. Most people just like it cause it looks cool, which is their perogative. I on the other hand, prefer gameplay.
Btw if any of you newbs wanna play some sc, lemme know.
^^
Well if you're still playing I need a AT partner =P I'm lvl 14 72-25 right now in TFT. Classic was straight tech craft...I hate tier 1 so I liked that too. The problem right now is everyone looks for the ultimate uncounterable strat for their race which leads everyone to only do 1 strat. As soon as everything is counterable people are going to do differnt things because you're going to be forced to go with a strat and make someone counter it. The #1 players have a set build order but it seems on top of the ladder people adjust their strats now based on what people are doing...the top orc player always skips a barracks then how he plays changes based on waht you're doing. NE is basically stuck doing beastmaster and archers becasue it's uncounterable and human actually adjusts based on what people are doing. I alway see fiends and statues out of UD though.
Most people quit not because it's stagnant though. I've had 2 friends quit because they couldn't win and couldnt figure out why they lost....and it was almost always micro. Most people don't get how much heroes affect the game too. I think after the next balance patch the game is gonna be awesome because the game is really close to balanced right now.
Macro and situational awareness still plays a huge role in the game. I think there's a lot more to do and more variety now cause of heroes and creeping. Before there'd be tons of downtime while waiting for things to build. Youd basically just run into a battle and only micro casters...
By the way how many users are normally on SC? TFT varies from 20,000 to 42,000
When I quit I was 150-50, but I logged on recently and my exp decay has taken me down to level 10
. I don't think it lets you drop anymore though. Yah, I'm sure a lot of people have quit because they didn't get better at it, I'm just speaking of my friends. We were all War2 junkies and all jumped right into War3, but we just stopped plaaying because it wasn't fun for us. I'd like to try to AT, but I don't have TFT and I'm waiting for it to come down in price before I buy it. It sounds like the game has diversified a little since TFT came out, but I just checked the ladder and it seems Orc is on top, but its much more evenly spread than before. Hopefully they balance the game soon.
Originally posted by: RalphWiggum
When I quit I was 150-50, but I logged on recently and my exp decay has taken me down to level 10
It sounds like the game has diversified a little since TFT came out, but I just checked the ladder and it seems Orc is on top, but its much more evenly spread than before. Hopefully they balance the game soon.
Here's why I think it's pretty much balanced. Before the last patch people were complaining humans were too weak...then now they're complaining they're too good. I think only dragonhawks(antiair) and riflemen got buffed. NE were complaining that their race was the weakest then all of a sudden some guy goes 123-0 and takes #1 on ladder and there's all sorts of NE's with 90 wins and single digit losses and everyone says NE is overpowered. Everyone complains orc is too strong...then the patch comes out and wyverns are barely nerfed and now Orc is too weak..but then all of a sudden Orcs take the top ladder spots...so obviously they aren't too weak. At the beginning of the most recent patch it was UD was way overpowereed...now it seems like tehy're the weakest race. As the game matures little changes seem to swing the balances of races. It's a lot more diverse than classic was and now the only problem seems to be that melee doesn't always deal with ranged effectively...once that is fixed a couple minor tweaks here and there and the game is awesome....
I still get frustrated when I take a couple losses in a row to players i shouldn't lose to though...
I don't like the game personally.
Surely, it's a nicely made game.
However, I think it's too rush-oriented.
I'm sure you are going to say all games are like that, but I think not as much as WCIII.
If you mess up one command or so, that usually means your downfall.
I'm good with RTS usually, but with this game, I can't even beat easy regular, provided I only play about 10 times.
Surely, it's a nicely made game.
However, I think it's too rush-oriented.
I'm sure you are going to say all games are like that, but I think not as much as WCIII.
If you mess up one command or so, that usually means your downfall.
I'm good with RTS usually, but with this game, I can't even beat easy regular, provided I only play about 10 times.
You're absolutely correct. It's an insult to Starcraft to even begin to compare it to the mess that is WC3.
Adul
Elite Member
the problem is everyone maphacks.
i play ffa mostly (ranked top 20. don't like single cuz of the harrassment element which isn't fun for me, i like to do big battles with full armies. random team isn't always fun because someone always either drops, or sucks making the teams unbalanced.
but again, the problem for me is maphacking. it's obvious in replays. i send it in, but i still play the same guys. i don't bother sending in replays since nothing seems to happen
also, there isn't much strategy. you just get a good build order (which you learn from replays if nothing else), creep, then mass a unit.
recently i play as UD and have not yet lost to anyone once i have my full army up (which is usually tri-hero and mass gargs). i even was playing 4vs4, 2 of my teammates dropped from early harassment, the third guy was noob, and i still beat the other team cuz i had enough time to get my army up.
so in short, the problem is maphacking and balance (there isn't much).
i play ffa mostly (ranked top 20
. don't like single cuz of the harrassment element which isn't fun for me, i like to do big battles with full armies. random team isn't always fun because someone always either drops, or sucks making the teams unbalanced.but again, the problem for me is maphacking. it's obvious in replays. i send it in, but i still play the same guys. i don't bother sending in replays since nothing seems to happen
also, there isn't much strategy. you just get a good build order (which you learn from replays if nothing else), creep, then mass a unit.
recently i play as UD and have not yet lost to anyone once i have my full army up (which is usually tri-hero and mass gargs). i even was playing 4vs4, 2 of my teammates dropped from early harassment, the third guy was noob, and i still beat the other team cuz i had enough time to get my army up.
so in short, the problem is maphacking and balance (there isn't much).
I spent an incredible amount of time playing WC2 in college... err... I mean performing network bandwidth testing that I was really looking forward to WC3. I rushed out and bought it and quickly found out I absolutely hate the game.
Why? the games are stagnant due to the symetric maps and fixed player locations. The maps are too small. I hate micromanagement. Your "army" is nothing more than a street gang of thugs. Not very impressive.
Give me Total Annihilation, WC2, Empire Earth, or Age of Empires any day of the week.
Dave
Why? the games are stagnant due to the symetric maps and fixed player locations. The maps are too small. I hate micromanagement. Your "army" is nothing more than a street gang of thugs. Not very impressive.
Give me Total Annihilation, WC2, Empire Earth, or Age of Empires any day of the week.
Dave
Originally posted by: draggoon01
the problem is everyone maphacks.
i play ffa mostly (ranked top 20
but again, the problem for me is maphacking. it's obvious in replays. i send it in, but i still play the same guys. i don't bother sending in replays since nothing seems to happen
also, there isn't much strategy. you just get a good build order (which you learn from replays if nothing else), creep, then mass a unit.
recently i play as UD and have not yet lost to anyone once i have my full army up (which is usually tri-hero and mass gargs). i even was playing 4vs4, 2 of my teammates dropped from early harassment, the third guy was noob, and i still beat the other team cuz i had enough time to get my army up.
so in short, the problem is maphacking and balance (there isn't much).
You're wrong. There is not a lot of maphacking. If you think just because you get punked when you go creeping, you think the other person is hacking, no way. Creep jacking is a very vital part of the strategy of WC3.
Originally posted by: wicktron
Originally posted by: draggoon01
the problem is everyone maphacks.
i play ffa mostly (ranked top 20
but again, the problem for me is maphacking. it's obvious in replays. i send it in, but i still play the same guys. i don't bother sending in replays since nothing seems to happen
also, there isn't much strategy. you just get a good build order (which you learn from replays if nothing else), creep, then mass a unit.
recently i play as UD and have not yet lost to anyone once i have my full army up (which is usually tri-hero and mass gargs). i even was playing 4vs4, 2 of my teammates dropped from early harassment, the third guy was noob, and i still beat the other team cuz i had enough time to get my army up.
so in short, the problem is maphacking and balance (there isn't much).
You're wrong. There is not a lot of maphacking. If you think just because you get punked when you go creeping, you think the other person is hacking, no way. Creep jacking is a very vital part of the strategy of WC3.
i never stated why i thought there was maphacking. how did you conclude i'm wrong? i never talked about getting "punked" during creeping.
i think there's maphacking because people drop in on battles for cleanup at the right moment after waiting a screen away. i think there's maphacking because people attack bases right when the army is away and starts attacking someone else. i think there's maphacking because people attack the right creeps that still exist without ever exploring the creeps that someone else already killed, regardless of proximity.
it's obvious and i wasn't wrong when i stated that.
Really? I've seen the Korean (eg World) championships for the last 12 ladder seasons. Starcraft is a macro-managed game. You build big economy and you build big army, and you win. The top ranked players in the world spend about 90% of the time managing resources and 10% of the time actually looking/managing the fight.
WC3:FT takes a helluva more time actually on the battle. It's the nitpicky that wins. Its what seperates the newbies from the champions when they have equal armies, but one army gets devastated to nothing while the other is still greater than half strength. Before you people actually lamblast it for a different playing style, just go download the replays (or movies) of Korean primetime TV games or tournaments. The actual strategies that is offered is unparalleled. Not to mention the announcers are just so funny (if you download the movies that is).
I think wc3 sucks, according to so many, because of two things: It's not newbie friendly and it's not balanced. I know a couple people who loved wc2, tried wc3 and gave up on it pretty fast because it was impossible to figure out. I know I gave up on it after the expansion because it was terribly unbalanced.
You could make the most balanced game in the history of the universe and 90% of the people would still cry about balance.
All the posts are too long, so I'm not going to read any of them. Instead, I'll just post why I think wc3 sucks and I'm playing starcraft again.
I played both normal and the beta, and after I saw what was going on with the beta I knew I would not buy the expansion. So here's my list of gripes:
1) Too newbie friendly. Auto everything leaves little micro except running my hero around.
2) There was a time I thought this game would have maybe 15 units MAX (and thus insane micro), and I can see heroes fitting quite well in such a game. Actually I wish that's what they had done, but oh well. Heroes are a terrible idea in such a game because, with such little micro, heroes become overly emphasized.
3) Creeps and random drops. Too much focus on leveling and unbalanced drops is really annoying. Relates back to 1) and 2).
4) WTF is going on in a battle? Seriously, wtf is going on? I can't even tell which units are mine, much less if I'm winning or losing. When the color on my units are so small, it makes it really hard to tell wtf is mine when the spells start flying. Relates back to 1) and 2).
5) Town portals. Bad idea. Kills the idea of positioning, surprise attacks, and counters.
6) High ground and base drops are virtually gone. You just can't get enough zeppelins to perform a devastating drop. No defendable choke points makes defending against a much larger force very difficult. This is one of the best thing about starcraft and I'm sad to see they didn't include it.
7) Forces ABSOLUTELY CANNOT BE SEPARATED! Having multiple attack groups carrying out various mission is suicide in wc3, which just stinks. This mean you have to build a better army, keep it together, and encounter the enemy head on and hope you win. Trying to surround just gets owned (unless you are trying to surround hero which everyone does). This is due large part to the overemphasis of the hero and the fear of giving the enemy hero levels.
8) With TFT, loss of racial identity! Wow this one is just so bad. So bad. Just takes away from the experience, I think.
9) Too many area of effect casting ability. Especially now that you can buy a neutral hero. And AOE needs higher mana cost to make it a more precious commodity, instead of a spammable attack.
10) Overly strong base defense. This was more of a problem in vanilla, but it's better now.
11) Units move a bit too slowly. Not really a big deal.
Wow, this game sucks more than I initially realized. I thought I would write 5 points and be done, but the more I wrote, the more I had to write. I think starcraft is far superior and that's why I'm playing that now. I know, wc3 is not starcraft, but it is a very similar genre and therefore comparable. It feels like they took many of the things that made starcraft fun, took them out, and had no replacement for them in wc3.
dfi
I played both normal and the beta, and after I saw what was going on with the beta I knew I would not buy the expansion. So here's my list of gripes:
1) Too newbie friendly. Auto everything leaves little micro except running my hero around.
2) There was a time I thought this game would have maybe 15 units MAX (and thus insane micro), and I can see heroes fitting quite well in such a game. Actually I wish that's what they had done, but oh well. Heroes are a terrible idea in such a game because, with such little micro, heroes become overly emphasized.
3) Creeps and random drops. Too much focus on leveling and unbalanced drops is really annoying. Relates back to 1) and 2).
4) WTF is going on in a battle? Seriously, wtf is going on? I can't even tell which units are mine, much less if I'm winning or losing. When the color on my units are so small, it makes it really hard to tell wtf is mine when the spells start flying. Relates back to 1) and 2).
5) Town portals. Bad idea. Kills the idea of positioning, surprise attacks, and counters.
6) High ground and base drops are virtually gone. You just can't get enough zeppelins to perform a devastating drop. No defendable choke points makes defending against a much larger force very difficult. This is one of the best thing about starcraft and I'm sad to see they didn't include it.
7) Forces ABSOLUTELY CANNOT BE SEPARATED! Having multiple attack groups carrying out various mission is suicide in wc3, which just stinks. This mean you have to build a better army, keep it together, and encounter the enemy head on and hope you win. Trying to surround just gets owned (unless you are trying to surround hero which everyone does). This is due large part to the overemphasis of the hero and the fear of giving the enemy hero levels.
8) With TFT, loss of racial identity! Wow this one is just so bad. So bad. Just takes away from the experience, I think.
9) Too many area of effect casting ability. Especially now that you can buy a neutral hero. And AOE needs higher mana cost to make it a more precious commodity, instead of a spammable attack.
10) Overly strong base defense. This was more of a problem in vanilla, but it's better now.
11) Units move a bit too slowly. Not really a big deal.
Wow, this game sucks more than I initially realized. I thought I would write 5 points and be done, but the more I wrote, the more I had to write. I think starcraft is far superior and that's why I'm playing that now. I know, wc3 is not starcraft, but it is a very similar genre and therefore comparable. It feels like they took many of the things that made starcraft fun, took them out, and had no replacement for them in wc3.
dfi
It's not very unbalanced...if you looked at race matchup statistics they're within .2% of each other with individual matchups being looked at. For all you saying it's terribly unbalanced the top 100's on each ladder are pretty much even...
Do you like repeating what 14 year old sheep on bnet forums say? Because most of your points are invalid.
1. Too litlte micro?? I played warcraft 2 and didn't have to micro at all except casting bloodlust and hitting attack...this game is very very micro intensive.
2. I have no idea what you mean with this point. With so little micro heroes become over emphasized??? It's more like there's so much to micro that you have to focus on units that do the most...in this case heroes.
3. You are overexageratting this. Creeping is another element of strategy. You can creep and gain teh lvl advantage and items or you can attacks. I'll agree with a few drops being imbalanced. In classic there was too much creeping. In TFT there's really good balance between creeping and player interaction.
4. This point might be valid with mass casters. If you can't tell what's going on in a battle you're an idiot or only play large team games where only newbies frequent anyways.
5. TPs don't kill surprise attacks and counters. WIth the nature of the game and creeping you're going to be away from your base....ever tried a hit and run to make them use their TP then go back in when they're on the other side of the map again and they're TPless?
6) You want this game to be exactly like starcraft and it's not. Drops are still there.
7) What are you talking about forces cannot be separated? I always harass w/ my hero creep w/ my units or creep multiple groups with separated units. I always have wyverns harassing an enemy base while creeping with another group of units. Please play the game before repeating what everyone keeps saying.
8) How is racial identity lost??? I don't get this one...NE is now the micro intensive quick race. Orc has good heavy melee, humans is the counter race and UD beats you in #s and hero nuking. You remind me of those whiners on the bnet forums with this statement "so bad". The game is close as hell to being balanced with a few minor tweaks.
9) AOE was nerfed already. The only thing with this is maybe human flamestrike and blizzard but there's interrupt spells.
10) Base D is fine...you can attack an enemy base when you want now.
11) What the hell, units move too slow???
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