Why does the Third World hate us?

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,431
6,089
126
FF: From the anarchists of tsarist Russia to the IRA of 1916, from the Irgun and the Stern Gang to he FOKA in Cyprus, from the Baader-Meinhof group in Germany, the CCC in Belgium, the Action Directe in France, the Red Brigades in Italy, the Red Army Faction again in Germany, the Rengo Sekigun in Japan, through to the Shining Path in Peru to the modern IRA in Ulster or the ETA in Spain, terrorism came from the minds of the comfortably raised, well-educated, middle- or upper-class theorists with a truly staggering personal vanity and a developed taste for self-indulgence.

M: This is us too.

FF: In this theory, those who could order another to plant a bomb in a food hall and gloat over the resultant images all have one thing in ocmmon. They possess a fearsome capacity for hatred. This is the genetic "given". The hatred comes first; the target can come later and usually does.

M: WE have targeted Iraq.

FF: The motive also came second to the capacity to hate. It might be the Boshevik Revolution, national liberation, or a thousand variants thereof, from amalgamation to secession; it might be anticapitalist fervor, it might be religion exaltation.

M: It might be Capitalism Fundamental Christianity or PNAC.

FF: But the hatred comes first, then the cause, then the target, then the methods, and finally the self-justification. And Lenin's "useful dupes" always swallow it.

M: As do YABAs or YAKA's

FF: The leadership of Al Qaeda runs precisely true to form. Its cofounders are a construction millionaire from Saudi Arabia and a qualified doctor from Cairo. It matters not whether their hatred of Americans and Jews is secular based or religiously fueled. There is nothing, absolutely nothing that America or Israel can do, short of complete self-annihilation, that would even begin to appease or satisfy them.

M: And those with PNAC dreams will stand no competition or threat from anywhere either.

FF: None of the leaders of terrorism truly care a damn for the Palestinians, Afghanis or Iraqis - save as vehicles and justifications. They hate the West, not for what it does, but for what it is.

M: Just as we care nothing for the Iraqi and are learning to hate the Muslim.

FF: The West is a constant reproach. It is rich to their poor, strong to their weak, vigorous to their idle, enterprising to their reactionaries, ingenious to their bewildered, can-do to their sit-and-wait, pushy to their timid.

M: Just as we are demonizing Islamic culture.

FF: It only needs one demagogue to arise and shout, "Everything the Americas have they stole from you," and they'll believe it. Like Shakespeare's Caliban, their zealots stare in the mirror and roar in rage at what they see. That rage becomes hatred; the hatred needs a target. Conveniently, global communication networks and commerce allows the zealot to become spectator of the stereotypical TV family lifestyle. We are judged as worthy or not to live by the antics of Paris Hilton and the like.

M: We needed just one George Bush to confuse Al Quaeda with Saddam. We judge by the beheadings.

FF: The working class of the Third World does not hate the West; it is the pseudointellectuals. If they ever forgive you, they must indict themselves. So far, their hatred lacks the weaponry. One day they will acquire that weaponry. Then America and its allies will have to fight - or die.

M: There you have it. Our terrorism is justified, just like they justify theirs.

We are all the same and we are all insane. We have met the enemy and he is us. If we are ever to forgive we will have to remember where we learned to hate and forgive ourselves for the guilt we internalized. We will have to forgive Mommy and Daddy for killing us. But first we will have to realize that they did.

There is only one way to prevent human extinction. It is to cure yourself. The war out there is the war that is going on inside. It cannot be won out there. But we will not fight the real war because we are afraid. And you will lose the war out there because this truth cannot be heard.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
I know well about the practices of the Cold War, but what goes around comes around. The US has been selfish to the point of... well an analogy doesn't even work here. I think the 3rd world is fed up with being exploited, given false hopes, promises, etc etc. As of right now, we are continuing to support dictators around the world because it serves our interests. I understand the totality of communism vs free-world (a disparate juxtaposition if there ever was one). I've heard horror stories of duck/cover and the like. I understand many of the policies, but we installed friendly dictators to the point of obession. Overthrowing a governmen time and time again across the world doesn't exactly breed good will towards one's countries. And we still haven't stopped this practice.

We have used democracy as an ideal only when it is convienant to us. When it comes to Egypt or Saudi Arabia, democracy becomes a liability. This is the double-standard that has been played (along with others) for decades now. And the third world has woken up to this reality.
I agree with most of that. However I don't quite buy the idea that the Third World is fed up with being "exploited". Though just a decade-and-some ago, the Cold War is ancient history. Other than calling it a day and extricating from the region, what can the U.S.A. really do - follow up by converting every satellite nation to true democracy? Meaning, they want us to interfere MORE? A wise person knows that nations never act out of reasons of morality, but from self-interest. Especially considering the propping up was done by proxy, I don't think you can say the Third World suffers from false hopes/promises/etc.

We're guilty of perpetrating one evil to fight a greater one, definitely (no need to argue the evils of communism/capitalism, not relevant to today's discussion). At the same time:

A) Was there really any other way? Ideological war is dirty.

B) Why has our extrication from the Third World made them wish for our blood? We stay there, they hate us. We leave, they hate us. There's no winning.

C) The average Third Worlder was hardly directly affected by the effects of the West's meddling. There are a few cases of democracies being snapped in favour of West-approved dictators, but not that many. For many of those people life continued as normal just like it did for Canadians/USians et al in the West. So why the hate? That is what my original post addresses.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Us?? Aren't you a Third Worlder living in Canada?
:confused: My skin colour is not white, but I was born in Canada and call myself a Canadian, much like many Irish immigants came to America and had children who call themselves American. An enemy to one country is an enemy to both. What does a person have to do to be allowed to speak for "us" as so many here do?
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
This writing is a bit of a stretch at trying to "rationalize" the result but fails to get to the meat.

It bascially boils down to no matter how much goodies you put in a cage, most animals will eventually want out of the cage. When a Country becomes totally overrun by a Dictatorship the animals will want out of the cage no matter how well off the Country is doing under the Dictatorship. If the common folk are doing poorly that will accelerate the process.

Just watch the U.S. as it is becomming a "caged" Country. Oklahoma was nothing.
That's another interesting subject - can an internally oppressed nation in this day and age successfully rebel?

In Iraq's case, I would say it would not have been possible for many decades to come. Saddam had a large, well-equipped army coming from the minority population of Sunnis that had an interest in holding down the 90% who were Shiites. What would you say the ratio is: 1 machinegun-equipped Sunni to 50 Shiites? Modern weaponry is the curse of the overthrower.

I have no idea what your last sentence meant.
 

RealityTime

Senior member
Oct 18, 2004
665
0
0
Originally posted by: ATIuser
Why do they hate us? Because they'remorons who believe the liberal bullshit that everything we have was gotten from victimising them rather than from our own hard work.
Any of you who believe this are morons too.



you have no idea how much you show evident the truth of what you just denied. just listen to yourself. you're a pig.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: BBond
Who has been teaching you this nonsense???

Rush???
You'll notice Omar did not dispute the historical accuracy of what I said. I am a student of history and know well of what I speak - perhaps you would like to tell me how it really happened instead?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith





Oderint dum metuant

Indeed, although I posted it in regard to my Hayabusa :p

Nevertheless, I have frightened enough people to understand how it works. These days I believe by leadship by example rather than by intimidation.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Originally posted by: mwtgg
Originally posted by: BBond
You people like to repeat history as though it is happening right now as long as it fits your needs.

Whether or not Saddam gassed his own people, the WMD Bush said was in Iraq was not there. It didn't exist.

What should we do with the people whose lies make them responsible for 100,000 Iraqi civilian deaths?

I don't know, what did we do to a man who had 250,000 people killed?

Are you talking about the same man who we put into power and gave him the weapons to do so? I think so!

The 3rd World hates us because we play geopolitical hot potatoe with them and then when they really do need us, we kick them in the face.

Give me just a few examples of us kicking the rest of the world in the face. We have been giving our money away to them for decades and they have just been spitting on us for it.

Of course every country looks out for itself. Give me an example of one other country in the world that is altruistic like we are. Just one. Give me an example of another country that has helped another country when they didn't have to and knew they would get nothing in return.

If I were the President, I would give a big Screw You to the rest of the world and cut off all foreign aide. I would spent that money at home and tell the rest of the world that they can solve their own problems from now on. They can feed the people of africa, they can give humanitarian aide to countries with natural disasters. They can do it all by themselves without our hard earned money.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
When has the US kicked the world in the face?

Here are a few examples, the latest being the side-stepping of the Un with an illegal war in iraq:

Iran - 1953 - The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of
democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah
to power.

Guatemala - 1954 - The CIA overthrew the
democratically elected Arbenz and placed Colonel Armas
in power.

Indonesia - 1965 - The CIA orchestrated a military
coup.

etc.... etc....
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Originally posted by: mwtgg
Originally posted by: BBond
You people like to repeat history as though it is happening right now as long as it fits your needs.

Whether or not Saddam gassed his own people, the WMD Bush said was in Iraq was not there. It didn't exist.

What should we do with the people whose lies make them responsible for 100,000 Iraqi civilian deaths?

I don't know, what did we do to a man who had 250,000 people killed?

Are you talking about the same man who we put into power and gave him the weapons to do so? I think so!

The 3rd World hates us because we play geopolitical hot potatoe with them and then when they really do need us, we kick them in the face.

Give me just a few examples of us kicking the rest of the world in the face. We have been giving our money away to them for decades and they have just been spitting on us for it.

Of course every country looks out for itself. Give me an example of one other country in the world that is altruistic like we are. Just one. Give me an example of another country that has helped another country when they didn't have to and knew they would get nothing in return.

If I were the President, I would give a big Screw You to the rest of the world and cut off all foreign aide. I would spent that money at home and tell the rest of the world that they can solve their own problems from now on. They can feed the people of africa, they can give humanitarian aide to countries with natural disasters. They can do it all by themselves without our hard earned money.

August 19th, 1953 Iran

September 11th, 1973 Chile
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Give me just a few examples of us kicking the rest of the world in the face. We have been giving our money away to them for decades and they have just been spitting on us for it.

Just curious Commander. Can you give me a few examples of other's spitting on us for giving our money away to them?

 

AcidicFury

Golden Member
May 7, 2004
1,508
0
0
Originally posted by: yllus
I agree with most of that. However I don't quite buy the idea that the Third World is fed up with being "exploited". Though just a decade-and-some ago, the Cold War is ancient history. Other than calling it a day and extricating from the region, what can the U.S.A. really do - follow up by converting every satellite nation to true democracy? Meaning, they want us to interfere MORE? A wise person knows that nations never act out of reasons of morality, but from self-interest. Especially considering the propping up was done by proxy, I don't think you can say the Third World suffers from false hopes/promises/etc.

We're guilty of perpetrating one evil to fight a greater one, definitely (no need to argue the evils of communism/capitalism, not relevant to today's discussion). At the same time:

A) Was there really any other way? Ideological war is dirty.

B) Why has our extrication from the Third World made them wish for our blood? We stay there, they hate us. We leave, they hate us. There's no winning.

C) The average Third Worlder was hardly directly affected by the effects of the West's meddling. There are a few cases of democracies being snapped in favour of West-approved dictators, but not that many. For many of those people life continued as normal just like it did for Canadians/USians et al in the West. So why the hate? That is what my original post addresses.

OK. I'm going to address this numerically.

First of all, the Third World is sick and tired of being exploited for economic use. You say you are a student of history, yet you are leaving out some very key points. The entire Third World was once subjugated to colonialism, where the colonizer extracted the needed resource, and left. Now, places like Latin America and Africa have no infrastructure, barely any industry, and are in dire need of resources. They export crops and raw materials to the West to be manufactured. Because of this, they are constantly on the lower end of the global economy. They send something to the West, get a little bit of money for it, then have to buy the manufactured good. Even if the factory where the good is produced is in their own country, they still have to pay exorbitant prices for it. The only reason anyone ever invests in a Third World country anymore is for the cheap labor, and this serves to perpetuate self-interest.

Second, you talk about having the US create friendly governments. This is wrong. No one should have to suffer under a government like in Congo or even 1980's Iraq where the whole point of the government is to help the US. This does not help the people of the country, and goes against every human rights decree on the planet. As I stated in my first point, we only go to countries in order to expolit them economically. It's the way capitalism works. No politician will deny this. In order to win hearts and minds, we need to take the moral high ground, not by exploiting countries and creating puppet governments, but by genuinely helping these countries build up infrastructure and industry under the supervision of their own government. This in turn will help both them and us, ultimately resulting in better global trade holistically.

Third, there is no more evil that we do than to exploit nations. This is the terrorism that we create, and we create a hopeless situation for any country that is unlucky enough to get in our way.

Fourth, there is a way to win. We stop doing all of the dirty stuff that has made us famous (or rather infamous) throughout the world. If we help prop up governments and economies with no expectation of any interest or repayment, we can have a friendlier world. This is the way that many Christians should advocate, because this is in the Bible. But religion has twisted our beliefs into denying freedoms to those who are just as worthy as us to receive them. We need to transcend this, and follow the true Christian way.

Finally, most people in the world ARE invested into what the US does, both economically and politically. If the US sanctions a country, there is almost no help for the starving people there. If we do not have the most friendly relations with a government, we are not as much inclined to help them. The current way of US aid is too selfish. We should not just give a country a blank check and tell them to be friendly to us or else. We need to create governments that are representative of the people, using candidates that come from the people, not using exiles or CIA informers.

Whew, long post. Hope you enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed writing it.
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
6,149
0
0
Originally posted by: yllus
The conventional whine in the West, that terrorism stemmed from the poverty and destitution of the wretched of the earth is convenient and politically correct psychobabble.

From the anarchists of tsarist Russia to the IRA of 1916, from the Irgun and the Stern Gang to he FOKA in Cyprus, from the Baader-Meinhof group in Germany, the CCC in Belgium, the Action Directe in France, the Red Brigades in Italy, the Red Army Faction again in Germany, the Rengo Sekigun in Japan, through to the Shining Path in Peru to the modern IRA in Ulster or the ETA in Spain, terrorism came from the minds of the comfortably raised, well-educated, middle- or upper-class theorists with a truly staggering personal vanity and a developed taste for self-indulgence.

In this theory, those who could order another to plant a bomb in a food hall and gloat over the resultant images all have one thing in ocmmon. They possess a fearsome capacity for hatred. This is the genetic "given". The hatred comes first; the target can come later and usually does.

The motive also came second to the capacity to hate. It might be the Boshevik Revolution, national liberation, or a thousand variants thereof, from amalgamation to secession; it might be anticapitalist fervor, it might be religion exaltation.

But the hatred comes first, then the cause, then the target, then the methods, and finally the self-justification. And Lenin's "useful dupes" always swallow it.

The leadership of Al Qaeda runs precisely true to form. Its cofounders are a construction millionaire from Saudi Arabia and a qualified doctor from Cairo. It matters not whether their hatred of Americans and Jews is secular based or religiously fueled. There is nothing, absolutely nothing that America or Israel can do, short of complete self-annihilation, that would even begin to appease or satisfy them.

None of the leaders of terrorism truly care a damn for the Palestinians, Afghanis or Iraqis - save as vehicles and justifications. They hate the West, not for what it does, but for what it is.

The West is a constant reproach. It is rich to their poor, strong to their weak, vigorous to their idle, enterprising to their reactionaries, ingenious to their bewildered, can-do to their sit-and-wait, pushy to their timid.

It only needs one demagogue to arise and shout, "Everything the Americas have they stole from you," and they'll believe it. Like Shakespeare's Caliban, their zealots stare in the mirror and roar in rage at what they see. That rage becomes hatred; the hatred needs a target. Conveniently, global communication networks and commerce allows the zealot to become spectator of the stereotypical TV family lifestyle. We are judged as worthy or not to live by the antics of Paris Hilton and the like.

The working class of the Third World does not hate the West; it is the pseudointellectuals. If they ever forgive you, they must indict themselves. So far, their hatred lacks the weaponry. One day they will acquire that weaponry. Then America and its allies will have to fight - or die.


Adapted from Frederick Forsyth's Avenger.

Loads of hyperbole without content.

There is a cause behind each and everyone of these groups and NONE of the causes can be as simplified as "they hate the west".

If you want to take a look outside the narrow window you present you will see that there are people fighting for something, not against something, from the IRA to the ETA to the phalangists to the Palestinians to every other groups.

Simplifying it into "they hate the west" is not only stupid, it's also dangerous because it removes possible solutions from the equation, that these groups actually care about their cause should be obvious to all of us, to fight them without knowing their cause will create more of them, like the invasion of Iraq has.

The more people they can get into their respective organizations the better, for them.

So far the war on terror has worked an produced an amazing result, FOR the terrorists.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Give me just a few examples of us kicking the rest of the world in the face. We have been giving our money away to them for decades and they have just been spitting on us for it.

Just curious Commander. Can you give me a few examples of other's spitting on us for giving our money away to them?

I'm sure the liberals would be happy to give half a dozen examples right off the top of their head. After all, the US is now the most hated country in the world, right?
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
When has the US kicked the world in the face?

Here are a few examples, the latest being the side-stepping of the Un with an illegal war in iraq:

Iran - 1953 - The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of
democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah
to power.

Guatemala - 1954 - The CIA overthrew the
democratically elected Arbenz and placed Colonel Armas
in power.

Indonesia - 1965 - The CIA orchestrated a military
coup.

etc.... etc....

How are we kicking the world in the face with those actions we took over 40 YEARS AGO!???
I don't see how those are a kick in the face. A kick in the face would be if they asked for help and we basically told them to get bent (which is what just about every other country in the world does to us).

The war in Iraq was an example of where the rest of the world basically spit on us. Rather than supporting us in our efforts to make the world a better place, they all protected their own interests and criticized us despite the fact that just about every one of them believed Saddam to be a threat and that he had WMD. Think France. They were doing business with Saddam and didn't want people to find out. That's why they opposed the war. Not because of a lack of evidence or anything. It's pitiful.
 

tallest1

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2001
3,474
0
0
But the hatred comes first, then the cause, then the target, then the methods, and finally the self-justification. And Lenin's "useful dupes" always swallow it.

That sounds mighty familar....
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: Infohawk
When has the US kicked the world in the face?

Here are a few examples, the latest being the side-stepping of the Un with an illegal war in iraq:

Iran - 1953 - The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of
democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah
to power.

Guatemala - 1954 - The CIA overthrew the
democratically elected Arbenz and placed Colonel Armas
in power.

Indonesia - 1965 - The CIA orchestrated a military
coup.

etc.... etc....

How are we kicking the world in the face with those actions we took over 40 YEARS AGO!???
I don't see how those are a kick in the face. A kick in the face would be if they asked for help and we basically told them to get bent (which is what just about every other country in the world does to us).

The war in Iraq was an example of where the rest of the world basically spit on us. Rather than supporting us in our efforts to make the world a better place, they all protected their own interests and criticized us despite the fact that just about every one of them believed Saddam to be a threat and that he had WMD. Think France. They were doing business with Saddam and didn't want people to find out. That's why they opposed the war. Not because of a lack of evidence or anything. It's pitiful.

You have a short memory. We protected our interests not very long ago when we kept Saddam in power to use against Iran.

To think the US invaded Iraq to liberate them is exceedingly naive. Bush did it because he though it in our best interest. That Iraq got rid of Saddam was their dumb luck. We would gladly have kept him in power if it suited our needs, and people would be saying it was a necessary evil just as we did with Iran.

As far as France, I wouldn't be surprise me if they did have interests. I also believe they remembered what war is a hell of a lot better than us. It's our hobby. Europe was devastated by it. 9/11 wasn't a good days bombing compared to WWII. They saw no reason to get into Vietnam all over again, and we did. The French people certainly didn't want this war. So you have some supernatural powers which allow you to show IN FACT that the leaders of France were following the will of their people, and not GWB's?
People cry for democracy. Evidently it's only if that democracy is subservient to us.




 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Give me just a few examples of us kicking the rest of the world in the face. We have been giving our money away to them for decades and they have just been spitting on us for it.

Just curious Commander. Can you give me a few examples of other's spitting on us for giving our money away to them?

I'm sure the liberals would be happy to give half a dozen examples right off the top of their head. After all, the US is now the most hated country in the world, right?
You made the claim. Were you just talking out of your ass again?

 

RealityTime

Senior member
Oct 18, 2004
665
0
0
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: Infohawk
When has the US kicked the world in the face?

Here are a few examples, the latest being the side-stepping of the Un with an illegal war in iraq:

Iran - 1953 - The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of
democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah
to power.

Guatemala - 1954 - The CIA overthrew the
democratically elected Arbenz and placed Colonel Armas
in power.

Indonesia - 1965 - The CIA orchestrated a military
coup.

etc.... etc....

How are we kicking the world in the face with those actions we took over 40 YEARS AGO!???
I don't see how those are a kick in the face. A kick in the face would be if they asked for help and we basically told them to get bent (which is what just about every other country in the world does to us).

The war in Iraq was an example of where the rest of the world basically spit on us. Rather than supporting us in our efforts to make the world a better place, they all protected their own interests and criticized us despite the fact that just about every one of them believed Saddam to be a threat and that he had WMD. Think France. They were doing business with Saddam and didn't want people to find out. That's why they opposed the war. Not because of a lack of evidence or anything. It's pitiful.


Actually the world spits on your administration. And many of us think bush is more of a threat than saddam ever was. And btw. Bush is.
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
6,149
0
0
Originally posted by: RealityTime
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: Infohawk
When has the US kicked the world in the face?

Here are a few examples, the latest being the side-stepping of the Un with an illegal war in iraq:

Iran - 1953 - The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of
democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah
to power.

Guatemala - 1954 - The CIA overthrew the
democratically elected Arbenz and placed Colonel Armas
in power.

Indonesia - 1965 - The CIA orchestrated a military
coup.

etc.... etc....

How are we kicking the world in the face with those actions we took over 40 YEARS AGO!???
I don't see how those are a kick in the face. A kick in the face would be if they asked for help and we basically told them to get bent (which is what just about every other country in the world does to us).

The war in Iraq was an example of where the rest of the world basically spit on us. Rather than supporting us in our efforts to make the world a better place, they all protected their own interests and criticized us despite the fact that just about every one of them believed Saddam to be a threat and that he had WMD. Think France. They were doing business with Saddam and didn't want people to find out. That's why they opposed the war. Not because of a lack of evidence or anything. It's pitiful.


Actually the world spits on your administration. And many of us think bush is more of a threat than saddam ever was. And btw. Bush is.

The comparison is not fair, while Saddam was a national disaster Bush is international.