why does software cost so much?

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LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
3,679
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<< OYE!!!!!!!!!

you people are missing the point!!!!! I'm not talking about businesses... i'm talking about your average joe home user.
>>



In that case it's a moot point 'cause "average joe home user" has no need for Photoshop. :)

And the difference between Q3 and Photoshop (since those are the running examples) is you can play (and mod to varing degrees) Q3, but you can build things from the ground up w/Photoshop. If you wanted to build something from the ground up using the Q3 engine you'll have to license it, and last I heard it cost six figures to license the Q3 engine.

You're comparing apples and oranges here xyyz. Q3 is sold as end product. The only thing you can do w/Q3 is play it. Photoshop, on the other hand, is a tool. You can create with it (hell, you can do things in minutes in Photoshop that would take hours in a traditional dark room). The DVDs you have cost, what, $20-$25? The camera that was used to shoot those movies cost 10s, if not 100s of thousands of dollars. Should the camera cost the same as the end product?





Lethal

EDIT: spelling
 

xyyz

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
4,331
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<< In that case it's a moot point 'cause "average joe home user" has no need for Photoshop. :) >>



Why not? Why does the home user have to settle for a lesser product like Paint Shop Pro or something like Gimp? This is not a very good argument. What if the average joe wants to learn how to use the product... so that he can become more marketable in the future.... does he have to shell out cash to take a course... occuping time he might not have?

Even though the average joe user might not need it... they probably have it... so why not profit from the fact that people are going to use your product anyways?



<< And the difference between Q3 and Photoshop (since those are the running examples) is you can play (and mod to varing degrees) Q3, but you can build things from the ground up w/Photoshop. If you wanted to build something from the ground up using the Q3 engine you'll have to license it, and last I heard it cost six figures to license the Q3 engine. >>



A valid point, BUT they're both products. If Adobe is so worried about money people will make off using their product... implement what Oracle did or what Sun does where they charge per Processor time or something. I mean comeon... these two are pretty much industry standards for ecommerce... but they're not arrogant bastards making their products too exclusive. I guess these two corporations have some insight that these other people lack.

I mean comeon... Oracle let's you have their database for free... which is ALOT more complex and involved than Photoshop. They even let you profit from to a certain degree. But, what's really cool is you can download it to learn from it and not worry about licencing.



<< You're comparing apples and oranges here xyyz. Q3 is sold as end product. The only thing you can do w/Q3 is play it. Photoshop, on the other hand, is a tool. You can create with it (hell, you can do things in minutes in Photoshop that would take hours in a traditional dark room). The DVDs you have cost, what, $20-$25? The camera that was used to shoot those movies cost 10s, if not 100s of thousands of dollars. Should the camera cost the same as the end product? >>



If this is the case... let's charge 10's thousands of dollars for a Milwaukee drill and a Makkita (sp?) saw... since they're being using to craft million $ houses. Or maybe the public doesn't need to buy them... because they're too professional for the "average joe."
 

LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
3,679
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<< Why not? Why does the home user have to settle for a lesser product like Paint Shop Pro or something like Gimp? This is not a very good argument. What if the average joe wants to learn how to use the product... so that he can become more marketable in the future.... does he have to shell out cash to take a course... occuping time he might not have? >>





If "averge joe wants to be come more marketable" by using Photoshop then he ceases to be an average joe. ;) Home users don't have to settle for lesser products, they can buy Photoshop. But does the average joe need something as powerful as Photoshop? No. And If you don't buy a book, or take a class you're never gonna learn all the things that you can do w/Photoshop. You can't "play around" w/that program (or any "pro" productivity proggie) and figure it out in a weekend.



<< Even though the average joe user might not need it... they probably have it... so why not profit from the fact that people are going to use your product anyways? >>



So, let's say, car manufacturer's should drop the prices of their cars so every burger-flipping 16yr old can afford one because their cars are just gonna get stolen anyway?



Why should Adobe follow Oracle's or Sun's lead when they have vastly seperate products, purposes, and clients?


There is always gonna be "consumer" and "pro" level of products because different people have different needs. Should Canon drop the price of it's XL-1S miniDV camera from ~$4000 to $900 because you can get a miniDV camera from Best Buy for $900? No. So why should Abode (since it's the running example) Price match an inferior product?


Lethal
 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
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<< The DVDs you have cost, what, $20-$25? The camera that was used to shoot those movies cost 10s, if not 100s of thousands of dollars. Should the camera cost the same as the end product? >>


Actually, Panaflex cameras are so expensive that most studios just rent them from Panavision. Very few studios have actually OWNED the cameras that are frequently used to shoot films and TV show.
 

LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
3,679
0
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<<

<< The DVDs you have cost, what, $20-$25? The camera that was used to shoot those movies cost 10s, if not 100s of thousands of dollars. Should the camera cost the same as the end product? >>


Actually, Panaflex cameras are so expensive that most studios just rent them from Panavision. Very few studios have actually OWNED the cameras that are frequently used to shoot films and TV show.
>>



Good point. Of course then you have Lucas who has Sony(?) custom build HD camera's for you :)


Lethal
 

xyyz

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
4,331
0
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<<

<< Why not? Why does the home user have to settle for a lesser product like Paint Shop Pro or something like Gimp? This is not a very good argument. What if the average joe wants to learn how to use the product... so that he can become more marketable in the future.... does he have to shell out cash to take a course... occuping time he might not have? >>





If "averge joe wants to be come more marketable" by using Photoshop then he ceases to be an average joe. ;) Home users don't have to settle for lesser products, they can buy Photoshop. But does the average joe need something as powerful as Photoshop? No. And If you don't buy a book, or take a class you're never gonna learn all the things that you can do w/Photoshop. You can't "play around" w/that program (or any "pro" productivity proggie) and figure it out in a weekend.



<< Even though the average joe user might not need it... they probably have it... so why not profit from the fact that people are going to use your product anyways? >>



So, let's say, car manufacturer's should drop the prices of their cars so every burger-flipping 16yr old can afford one because their cars are just gonna get stolen anyway?




Why should Adobe follow Oracle's or Sun's lead when they have vastly seperate products, purposes, and clients?


There is always gonna be "consumer" and "pro" level of products because different people have different needs. Should Canon drop the price of it's XL-1S miniDV camera from ~$4000 to $900 because you can get a miniDV camera from Best Buy for $900? No. So why should Abode (since it's the running example) Price match an inferior product?


Lethal
>>




if this is the case then Abobe has no right to bitch about people ripping them off...

first of all... alot of money goes into cars and cameras and what not... you have to make these things from materials... I don't think the profit margins on cars are in teh same percentage as software titles.

we're talking about software here, not hardware... two totally different things.

a $4000 software package costs about $10 to stamp and print... and $30,000 car probably costs about $25,000 to make.

these are not the same things... let's stick with software and not mix cars into this.
 

Lankin

Senior member
Nov 4, 2001
231
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If you need Max, Maya, or XSI, you can afford Max, Maya or XSI. If you are a student, there is student pricing. They are priced that much because THEY ARENT FOR the avg joe. There are alot of companies that have the money to fork over $3-18k for high end software. Im not sure how many people are on the dev teams of Max, Maya or XSI, but I am certain they are a LOT larger than id as a whole. And these folks arent those game industry programmers that take huge hits in salary just to "do what they love"...
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81


<< a $4000 software package costs about $10 to stamp and print... and $30,000 car probably costs about $25,000 to make. >>

Eh? You fail to include the people costs in software development yet include them in car production and think that argument is fair?

Programmers must eat, too.
 

Lankin

Senior member
Nov 4, 2001
231
0
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Heh and as I mentioned, these programmers aren't the same as the ones in the game industry that accept $35,000 a year... Granted a whole heck of alot of game programmers arent the greatest programmers...
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,360
19,554
146


<< and $30,000 car probably costs about $25,000 to make. >>



You might want to revise that estimate. It's WAY off.
 

xyyz

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
4,331
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<< Prices of products are based on what the market will bear. They have little to do with production and R&D costs besides a base line minimum price the company can charge to cover costs.

Charging what the market will bear is the cornerstone of capitalism, and freedom.

If I was to make widgets that cost $5 to make, and sell them for $500, that is my right. If people buy them, I turn a profit and I'm successful. If no one buys them, I either lower my price, or go out of business.
>>



You CAN charge what you want. None's refuting this right. BUT... why? If you can make more money lowering your price and selling a larger quantity. Let's look at the MSFT products... office xp.... AND focus on the home user. I'm not talking about business here. I'm sure that the overwhelming majority of users haven't bought the product, they've pirated it. They've pirated it because it costs alot. Many don't have that amount of money. Me for one, I didn't buy it eventhough I really wanted it because it was too expensive. This is why I settled for Star Office. It's free.

If microsoft charged $50 for the product, I would have bought it. And they would have made $50 - the material cost. But it's still some money the can add to their bottom line. And I am very certain that ALOT of people would find $50 acceptable and buy their product. This way they make money where normally they wont.

Besides, people will be more supportive of MSFT. A big complaint that people have with their OS is that they have to pay alot for something that sucks. If the product doesn't cost so much, you won't get as many complaints and you will have a more loyal userbase, where loyalty isn't forced.

If someone produces a product that run's MSFT software and costs 1/2 as much watch how fast people flock to it. (and don't mention WINE, there's a reason it's in the state that it is)



<< In fact, raising prices combined with creative marketing and in some cases, limited production, can often times result in MORE sales. Take the designer clothing lines as an example. Often times, the overhead costs of designer clothes are no more than off brand clothes. But with effective marketing, and higher prices, these clothing lines become more desirable. Collectors items are an example of how limited production can influence what the market will bear. >>



There are many out there who purchase fake designer stuff, because it's alot cheaper. They don't care for quality as long as they can show a convicing label. Fake rayban's come to mind here... you won't believe what sort of market there is for this stuff. This is fine... but it's a separate issue. This doesn't address the issue of piracy.

I am saying... MAKE money where you won't usually make money. Charge the companies more if you are so concerned that they will make lots of cash because of your product. The average joe isn't gonna make that much from your product. Don't treat them like a big company.

My mom just mentioned someone that we know who got 85k job working with 3D studio max. Well, this has peaked alot of interest with me... but I cannot do anything about this because I can't afford the software to learn on my own.



<< In short, the prices on software are set at what the market will bear to maximize profits for the company. They are NOT set by any childish sense of entitlement, or altruism. >>



No offense, but I feel that this is pure rubbish. Selling 10 items at $500 will make you $5000 with limited exposure. Selling 100 items at $50 will put more of your product out there making you more popular and giving you the same profits.

And as for the incorrect estimate... please correct me... how much does a car cost to produce?
 

xyyz

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
4,331
0
0


<<

<< a $4000 software package costs about $10 to stamp and print... and $30,000 car probably costs about $25,000 to make. >>

Eh? You fail to include the people costs in software development yet include them in car production and think that argument is fair?

Programmers must eat, too.
>>



It's more than fair... you forget how much energy and effort goes into making cars. Trust me it took ALOT more people that get paid ALOT more and it took ALOT more time and ALOT more energy to go from prototype to final model than it does to go from photoshop 5 to photoshop 6.
 

xyyz

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
4,331
0
0


<< If you need Max, Maya, or XSI, you can afford Max, Maya or XSI. If you are a student, there is student pricing. They are priced that much because THEY ARENT FOR the avg joe. There are alot of companies that have the money to fork over $3-18k for high end software. Im not sure how many people are on the dev teams of Max, Maya or XSI, but I am certain they are a LOT larger than id as a whole. And these folks arent those game industry programmers that take huge hits in salary just to "do what they love"... >>



How much is student pricing... have you seen? It's NOT cheap... it's like $1500 instead of $4000... this is not something a student can afford on their budgets.
 

Kntx

Platinum Member
Dec 11, 2000
2,270
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71
I havn't read the whole thread so I don't know if someone has said this already.... but do you think that $1000 is expensive for software??? Is $5000 expensive???



There is software that costs hundreds of thousands and even millions of dollars.

There's this CASE software we have at school that supposedly cost 200 grand. Crazy stuff.


Developing software costs a lot of money, and if you're not doing high volume (ie. games) then you need to charge a lot. Quake only costs $50, but they license the technology for millions. So who cares if it's more complex than photoshop? They're definatly making more $$$.





 

Kntx

Platinum Member
Dec 11, 2000
2,270
0
71


<< a $4000 software package costs about $10 to stamp and print... and $30,000 car probably costs about $25,000 to make. >>





Are you f*cking stupid?!?!?!


What about the 100 people getting paid $70000 a year to make it over a few years?!?? What about the $10000 computers they make it on???? What about their office??? Insurance???? Licenses???? Desks???? Chairs???? Water coolers??? Secretaries???? Phones???? Internet???? Books???? Training????




a $4000 software package costs $10 to make????? Ya right.
 

xyyz

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
4,331
0
0


<< a $4000 software package costs about $10 to stamp and print... and $30,000 car probably costs about $25,000 to make. >>





<< Are you f*cking stupid?!?!?! >>



Okay... this is too easy... I suggest you quit lookin' at porn... and don't take out your frustration that you can't get it up out on me. If you're moronic-stupid-dweeb-inbread-microscopic-gangrene-infested-pecker-mother-f-in-bitch-ass-punk-asshole READ what I wrote...

you'd realize I said... the SOFTWARE package... to STAMP AND PRINT costs $10... I was NOT talking about how much it cost to PRODUCE you three-handed-beat-off-in-overdrive-bitch.




<< What about the 100 people getting paid $70000 a year to make it over a few years?!?? What about the $10000 computers they make it on???? What about their office??? Insurance???? Licenses???? Desks???? Chairs???? Water coolers??? Secretaries???? Phones???? Internet???? Books???? Training???? >>



This my villiage idiot... HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH STAMPING AND PRINTING the cd and manual.

Sheesh... I suggest you put the speed away and read carefully...




<< a $4000 software package costs $10 to make????? Ya right. >>



I hope that makes sense for your brain-dead ass.
 

xyyz

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
4,331
0
0


<< I havn't read the whole thread so I don't know if someone has said this already.... but do you think that $1000 is expensive for software??? Is $5000 expensive???



There is software that costs hundreds of thousands and even millions of dollars.

There's this CASE software we have at school that supposedly cost 200 grand. Crazy stuff.


Developing software costs a lot of money, and if you're not doing high volume (ie. games) then you need to charge a lot. Quake only costs $50, but they license the technology for millions. So who cares if it's more complex than photoshop? They're definatly making more $$$.
>>



Look... i'm talking about the average joe.. i'm not talking about how much the most expensive software costs. I'm saying that software companies shouldn't bitch about the common person ripping off their software when they make them so expensive. The should make the affordable so that the common person who is going to get it somehow will buy it and they'll make money off of the purchase.

Why the hell did this thread go in another direction?
 

flawedecision

Senior member
Oct 14, 2001
291
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try a CS class and spend 20 hours one weekend working on an assignment that will give "bob" an efficient way to calculate a couple retirement savings alternatives given different income levels and interest rates from a non animated little window or even a dos prompt, etc., etc., etc.... then spend 20 hours learning the things about Excel you never knew existed and you'll have your answer.
 

xyyz

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
4,331
0
0

you people speak as if you've bought all your software titles and support the high prices...

no offense... but I'm pretty sure the majority of you have pirated alot of stuff that you couldn't afford.

think about that... a bit hypocritical no?