Why does nvidia cheat so much?

[NIGELG]

It still doesn't explain why the ocean needed tessellating, and what Seero proposed was something he himself admitted to being just a theory that needed testing and verification. The sites that ran the reports found what was done did waste enough computing power to affect performance--that's factual, reproduceable information.

Like I said, there are theories, partial and potential explanations, but we have no solid data regarding the technical necessity of what was done, or the extent of Nvidia's role in it.

Not that it will stop AMD fans from denouncing Nvidia over it, or the Nvidia fans from dismissing the whole thing out of hand as "completely baseless." The fact remains it's not nearly as open-and-shut as you're portraying it.

Are there any videos showing the ocean on Ati and Nvidia's cards for comparison with tess on and off?

 

[Seero]

My, my, for this not being their fault, they sure set aside a lot of money for it for write downs in their results. So, it wasn't the PC manufacturers' fault, nor the users', and now according to you, not NVIDIA's either. Those chips must have just spontaneously become faulty and cooked themselves.

You know, you keep citing the result of the lawsuit as some holy truth, but we all know it's not, especially in civil suits. In a perfect world it would be, but in the real world, it's also about who has lawyers with better persuasion skills in influencing the jury, deeper pockets to be able to drag out the proceedings until the other side runs out of money, or happen to catch a judge who's not savy enough about all the technical details.

You seems to mixed the topic I presented. I said, by western law, one is innocent unless proven guilty. That means, if not proven guilty, then one is innocent. That is the laws of US. Unlike laws in some other countries, where one is guilty unless proven innocent.

If you want to use the outcome of a lawsuit as a proof of wrongdoing and liability to the bumpgate event, then you really should understand what the outcome is from that lawsuit first. If Nvidia is, by law, guilty, than yes, it can then be used it as a proof. If the outcome is "not outcome, it was settled", then it means Nvidia is innocent.

If you do not believe in laws, then don't use the outcome of a lawsuit as a proof. If you do believe in laws, then use the outcome of a lawsuit correctly.

 

[NIGELG]

You seems to mixed the topic I presented. I said, by western law, one is innocent unless proven guilty. That means, if not proven guilty, then one is innocent. That is the laws of US. Unlike laws in some other countries, where one is guilty unless proven innocent.

If you want to use the outcome of a lawsuit as a proof of wrongdoing and liable to the bumpgate event, then you really should understand what the outcome is from that lawsuit first. If Nvidia is, by law, guilty, than yes, it can then be used it as a proof. If the outcome is "not outcome, it was settled", then it means Nvidia is innocent.

If you do not believe in laws, then don't use the outcome of a lawsuit as a proof. If you do believe in laws, then use the outcome of a lawsuit correctly.

Settling out of court does not mean you were proven innocent or guilty.The court of public perception will usually look negatively at a corporation who settles out of court as having had money and something to hide.

 

[Keysplayr]

Wow, someone's getting awfully defensive here... One might even say emotional.

So you're saying it's perfectly reasonable to over-tessellate flat surfaces. OK, fair enough, I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter.

Isn't what you said. You said, and I quote, "Suspicious". Let me know when you're done playing this game all by yourself. Then maybe we can have a discussion.

 

[Seero]

Settling out of court does not mean you were proven innocent or guilty.The court of public perception will usually look negatively at a corporation who settles out of court as having had money and something to hide.

perception is one thing, proof is another. No proof? No case.

 

[Madcatatlas]

perception is one thing, proof is another. No proof? No case.

Indeed, but surely you are not as dense as to suggest that there is no proof in several of the cases put forth?

After all, unless one works for one of the companies, one is not going to bother spending ENOUGH time and resources to convince a single person or two of such a trivial matter all things considered.

I myself care more about my digestive system than i do about either nvidia or amd. I believe this to be true for most posters here.

 

[Madcatatlas]

Isn't what you said. You said, and I quote, "Suspicious". Let me know when you're done playing this game all by yourself. Then maybe we can have a discussion.

I dont think you will like a discussion with anyone who disagrees with you Keys. As evident in your rather offtopic replies. Id suggest a mirror for a perfectly matched conversation ()


My apologies, i didn't mean it as or think it was a personal jab, more like a tongue in cheek comment to ease up the mood.

Madcat,

This is a personal jab, exactly what I warned against in my mod post last night (post #458). This is unacceptable.

Moderator jvroig

 

[Keysplayr]

I dont think you will like a discussion with anyone who disagrees with you Keys. As evident in your rather offtopic replies. Id suggest a mirror for a perfectly matched conversation ()

Not true at all. I just don't appreciate the games such as the one KCfromNC is engaged in. Recognize that fact would you please.

 

[Seero]

Indeed, but surely you are not as dense as to suggest that there is no proof in several of the cases put forth?

After all, unless one works for one of the companies, one is not going to bother spending ENOUGH time and resources to convince a single person or two of such a trivial matter all things considered.

I myself care more about my digestive system than i do about either nvidia or amd. I believe this to be true for most posters here.

You are correct, and I too care about my digestive system more, but since it does not appears to have problems, I must put my attention somewhere else. There is work, and there is this thread, hmmm...

 

[NoQuarter]

perception is one thing, proof is another. No proof? No case.

Settlements are usually reached because there is enough proof presented that one side is obviously going to extract at least x amount of dollars. It's safer to settle because a jury or judge may award far more than that. Civil suits aren't really about guilt or innocence but compensation for damages inflicted. Whoever filed the suit obviously had at least $200 million dollars worth of evidence of damages inflicted or nVidia wouldn't have settled for that much.

 

[3DVagabond]

http://www.ngohq.com/home.php?page=articles&go=read&arc_id=112
Those happened 5 years ago, while Rollo is still today's hot rod, my source is already too old.

I posted already where the company in question, Design Reactor, flatly and unequivocally states that AMD did not hire them to post on the sites.

AMD has not commissioned us in any way to do any kind of viral marketing or promotion of this site in any venues other than traditional paid media vehicles.

Let me repost the link even though it's in the article you insist is your source.
http://techreport.com/discussions.x/10847

You knowingly post fud, as this has already been pointed out to you but you repeat it anyway. If you are willing to do it here why should any other of your evidence be considered accurate?

 

[JSt0rm]

I don't think keys is personally the issue here. He didn't join the focus group when they were viral so he has never lied or broken down trust in that way. Now what goes on in here on a day to day level is up to all of you who care about such nonsense.

 

[Seero]

I posted already where the company in question, Design Reactor, flatly and unequivocally states that AMD did not hire them to post on the sites.



Let me repost the link even though it's in the article you insist is your source.
http://techreport.com/discussions.x/10847

You knowingly post fud, as this has already been pointed out to you but you repeat it anyway. If you are willing to do it here why should any other of your evidence be considered accurate?

3DVagahond, you can believe whatever you want, what I linked is simply a piece of history, and the post you linked is the defense used from the history. The fact is, there is at least 1 person posting from Design Reactor to many tech forums with same or different alias to say good things about AMD. In fact, the link I linked showed that it appears to be 2 alias discussing the matter, both coming from Design Reactor.

Second, AMD did paid Design Reactor. The link you showed stated:

AMD has not commissioned us in any way to do any kind of viral marketing or promotion of this site in any venues other than traditional paid media vehicles.

In other words, AMD did paid Design Reactor, but according to Design Reactor, the money goes to media vehicles, not viral marketing. Also according to Design Reactor:

Although we are not able to mandate what our employees do in their personal time, and we certainly do not want to curb any of their enthusiasm around this monumental accomplishment, we will assure that if they are posting anything about this project they will not be anonymous in their postings.

The problem is, the IP back traced to Design Reactor, not the house of its employees. Those employee in question did not make one post, but forging posts in multiple forums, while they are in the office. According to Design Reactor, it is all done with their personal time, and thus has no control over it.

If you are interested, you can search what exactly those people posted about AMD that were sad to be viral marketing. It is all within reach nowadays.

Once again, I did not forge this, this is a site from google. If you want an evidence of AMD's viral marketing practice, this is one. It is not a prove, it is simply a piece of evidence.

 

[3DVagabond]

3DVagahond, you can believe whatever you want, what I linked is simply a piece of history, and the post you linked is the defense used from the history.

The link you posted showed where a site investigated suspicious threads. They traced the apparent spamming back to the company that designed the site. They then proceeded to blame the client for what the company did without any investigation nor attempted followup.

The fact is, there is at least 1 person posting from Design Reactor to many tech forums with same or different alias to say good things about AMD. In fact, the link I linked showed that it appears to be 2 alias discussing the matter, both coming from Design Reactor.

That is what the evidence supports. Absolutely nothing more than that.

Second, AMD did paid Design Reactor. The link you showed stated:

Yes AMD was the client. That does not show collusion on their part though.

In other words, AMD did paid Design Reactor, but according to Design Reactor, the money goes to media vehicles, not viral marketing. Also according to Design Reactor:

That's also correct. Please find me any evidence or statements that it went anywhere else.

The problem is, the IP back traced to Design Reactor, not the house of its employees. Those employee in question did not make one post, but forging posts in multiple forums, while they are in the office. According to Design Reactor, it is all done with their personal time, and thus has no control over it.

That's also correct. Makes it look like Design Reactor could be culpable. Still doesn't show AMD had any knowledge though.

If you are interested, you can search what exactly those people posted about AMD that were sad to be viral marketing. It is all within reach nowadays.

Not necessary. I'm not disputing that it was viral marketing. I'm just disputing that it has been shown at all, in anyway, that AMD even had knowledge it was being done. Never mind that they had any involvement.

Once again, I did not forge this, this is a site from google. If you want an evidence of AMD's viral marketing practice, this is one. It is not a prove, it is simply a piece of evidence.

Never claimed you had anything to do with forging it. I dispute that there is any evidence at all of AMD engaging in viral marketing. The reason it Googles is because the title states it. Unfortunately they decided to write that without doing any actual investigation to AMD's involvement. They found a connection and then ran with it.

So Design Reactor employees posted promoting an AMD site that they had designed. To your source that means AMD engaged in viral marketing. Design Reactor flatly says AMD didn't pay them to do anything like that. I could see if they wanted to blame Design Reactor for viral promoting of a site they designed. After all they would benefit from the success of that site. There is absolutely no evidence of AMD being involved in the act. There is evidence that Design Reactor employees engaged in viral marketing on company time. I could see if they wanted to claim Design Reactor engaged in Viral marketing. Not AMD though. They offered zero evidence of that being the case.

 

[Dribble]

Strikes me that nvidia focus group members are the smart ones here. If you are going to waste a noticeable % of your life having mostly circular arguments with equally stubborn people who are diametrically opposed too you, then you might as well at least get paid in video cards.

 

[mosox]

Help thy neighbor get a free card.

 

[SirPauly]

To survive and flourish in a competitive landscape that is technology one may need to be an aggressor and predator. It is obvious that nVidia has made mistakes but has learned from them like the AEG incident and the 3dMark fiasco, which was too aggressive by going behind the gamers back and developers back.

If one desires to blanket nVidia as a whole by trying to force cheating and nefarious intent on cherry picked examples, that is fine. But, for me, the key is invention and innovation and does a company improve upon their mistakes.

 

[The Ultimate]

While is true that nVidia cards does considerably better in Tessellation compared to AMD, why Allien vs Predator, Metro 2033 and COP COP does well on AMD? Why Unigine which uses a lot of Tessellation and the performance difference between AMD and nVidia is quite small? Why Lost Planet 2, HAWX 2 and Crysis 2 runs noticeable worse on AMD? Why nVidia does notably worse in OpenGL games compared to AMD, then they suddenly get away with Tessmark which is an OpenGL tittle? I think the arguments will never end.

 

[Seero]

While is true that nVidia cards does considerably better in Tessellation compared to AMD, why Allien vs Predator, Metro 2033 and COP COP does well on AMD? Why Unigine which uses a lot of Tessellation and the performance difference between AMD and nVidia is quite small? Why Lost Planet 2, HAWX 2 and Crysis 2 runs noticeable worse on AMD? Why nVidia does notably worse in OpenGL games compared to AMD, then they suddenly get away with Tessmark which is an OpenGL tittle? I think the arguments will never end.

I think you should revisit those benchmarks.

 

[The Ultimate]

I think you should revisit those benchmarks.

http://alienbabeltech.com/main/catalyst-11-8-performance-analysis-vs-11-5-and-geforce-280-26/all/1
I already did, look at Unigine, 12fps average in the most extreme settings and only 9fps in moderate. Wolfenstein, the HD 6970 has an advantage over 31fps over the much more expensive GTX 580, with 8xFSAA the gap remains the same. Call of Prypiat, the advantage is between 9fps and 11fps in favor of the GTX 580. In Metro 2033, the difference is around 6-7fps, in favor of the GTX 580. Lost Planet 2 is around 12-17fps in favor of the GTX 580. In overall, the performance gap between the HD 6970 and GTX 580 is too small to say that the GTX 580 has much better Tessellation performance, let alone to justify its price tag. I think you should take your own advice now.

 

[Mr. President]

http://alienbabeltech.com/main/catalyst-11-8-performance-analysis-vs-11-5-and-geforce-280-26/all/1
I already did, look at Unigine, 12fps average in the most extreme settings and only 9fps in moderate. Wolfenstein, the HD 6970 has an advantage over 31fps over the much more expensive GTX 580, with 8xFSAA the gap remains the same. Call of Prypiat, the advantage is between 9fps and 11fps. In Metro 2033, the difference is around 6-7fps. Lost Planet 2 is around 12-17fps. In overall, the performance gap between the HD 6970 and GTX 580 is too small to say that the GTX 580 has much better Tessellation performance, let alone to justify its price tag.I think you should take your own advice now.

Er, those aren't small differences when the framerates are in the 20s and 30s. A 12fps difference in Unigine, when the framerates compared are 28 and 40, is a 42% difference. That's freaking immense.

The rest you mention are differences of anything from 20% to 50%.

 

[The Ultimate]

Er, those aren't small differences when the framerates are in the 20s and 30s. A 12fps difference in Unigine, when the framerates compared are 28 and 40, is a 42% difference. That's freaking immense.

The rest you mention are differences of anything from 20% to 50%.

You are right, but I don't play Unigine, and AFAIK, all those games were playable regardless of the card of your choice, HD 6970 or GTX 580. I couldn't find a situation where the GTX 580 was playable and HD 6970 wasn't, except Unigine which isn't a game at all, and the fact that the match for the HD 6970 is the GTX 570.

 

[Seero]

You are right, but I don't play Unigine, and AFAIK, all those games were playable regardless of the card of your choice, HD 6970 or GTX 580. I couldn't find a situation where the GTX 580 was playable and HD 6970 wasn't, except Unigine which isn't a game at all, and the fact that the match for the HD 6970 is the GTX 570.

So what is the conspiracy?

Round 510:

 

[The Ultimate]

So what is the conspiracy?

Round 510:

Funny guy.

 

[WarhammerTX]

Oh some of you remember the good old days when amd pretty much couldnt compete with anyone then it was 3dfx Nvidia bankrupt them in the courts do to they didnt have the cash flow to fight the lawsuit. There is no telling where video cards would be today if this would not have happed. If you cant beat them bankrupt them should be Nvidias motto. 3dfx was spanking that butt.