Why does it seem that no one is worried about what Ashcroft is doing in the US ?

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charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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czar,

It would be nice if you showed displeasure in the politics of other countries. It definatly would make you come off as being less anti-american. I am sure there are other people here that could join in on iceland bashing.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
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<< czar,

It would be nice if you showed displeasure in the politics of other countries. It definatly would make you come off as being less anti-american. I am sure there are other people here that could join in on iceland bashing.
>>


But there are very few people on these forums that are interested in politics and are from another country than the US. But if someone goes and bash the icelandic government I´ll be the first to join them.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
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i have lots of concerns about Ashcroft and the possible short-cutting of civil rights. but at the moment we do have this "terrorism thing" to deal with and obviously existing law was not capable of handling it. changes have to be made, McCarthyism is long dead, and it's up to the leadership on both sides to see that the threat of terrorism is aggressively pursued. my real concern is that we can put the genie back in the bottle when the time comes but i have enough faith in the democratic process to believe we will.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
jjones,

the patriot bill does expire in 3 years. THat should make it alot easier to put the genie back in the bottle.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
2
0


<< But there are very few people on these forums that are interested in politics and are from another country than the US. But if someone goes and bash the icelandic government I´ll be the first to join them. >>


i'd be very interested in hearing your views on european policy. i watch the german news channel DW almost daily and even that does not give me enough of european opinion. anytime you wish to expound on happenings in the EU, I'm sure you'll have a few interested folks here. I think it's just too easy for you to bash the US.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
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<<
jjones,

the patriot bill does expire in 3 years. THat should make it alot easier to put the genie back in the bottle.
>>


yeah, I know. but as they say, sh!t happens and i see some sort of extension to this bill happening because i don't believe that three years is enough time. even so, like i said, i'm concerned, but not overly concerned about it.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Well I see we are really having a debate over 2 issues, Ashcroft and the current policies of the Administration.

Czar- you would do well to look at the bias of the "journalists" you read. Every one has them. We all do. Having an opinon/perspective requires it. The problem is do you report based on the facts and try to present a balanced view, or do you subjugate objectivity and select your facts and wording to support your bias? It seems to me those who you have quoted have decided that their minds were already made up, and others be damned.
Among their faulty analysis.
Someone held prisoner for 3 years, released and then reincarcerated. This is Our Attorney General Ashcrofts doing. Ummm who was Attorney General 3 years ago? Who was President?

Faulty argument 2. Ashcroft, being religious cannot act properly in office.
Lets say he was a true athiest. Now say what you will, a true athiest if honest, acknowleges that there is no higher power. Oh there are other people who are higher on the food chain, but in reality, his judgement is equal to theirs. Freed thusly, he can afford to be amoral. Now what is his oath worth? And to what higher calling can their be than to his own self interest? Does this have to be the case? No, of course. He can decide to do his job as he ought. The reverse argument holds for Ashcroft. He is still free to do his job. You may disagree that his implimentation, or even that his competence is in question, but you must go on the merits of his actions, not his religion.

Now that I have chastised you for your method of analysis of Ashcroft, I will say that your concerns about liberty are warranted. Now before someone flames me for my questioning things, I am of like mind with Thomas Jefferson. Someone has it in his sig on AT in fact. Something to the effect of "He who chooses security over freedom deserves neither" Did Jefferson believe we should have unrestricted freedoms at the sacrifice of all security? Of course not. The context was that he was concerned that restricting freedoms in anticipation of some theoretical attack was a dangerous thing. It sets precidents that justify the removal of our freedoms, by one act at a time, in order to protect us. There ARE times when measured, balanced, legislation needs to be enacted in order to promote the common security of all. This is one of those times. We as a people, are obligated to weigh the merits of those acts, and voice a rational disagreement if need be. I must say I hate the name- Patriot Act. I remember a quote of Samuel Johnson. "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" The implication of the title is that if you do not agree with the Act, you are unpartiotic. I dislike that.

So, how do I feel about the Act? It's a mixed bag. It does something, but it is up to us to make sure it is used against those who would harm us, and not those who the government would target as a political tool.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
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Ah, yes, because everything that's printed at the hands of a liberal journalist is true!
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
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haha, nice post. i wont even bother reading it any father than:

Someone held prisoner for 3 years, released and then reincarcerated. This is Our Attorney General Ashcrofts doing. Ummm who was Attorney General 3 years ago? Who was President?

The AG at the time of reincarceration was Ashcroft. Im hoping that you know that George Bush is president.


Faulty argument 2. Ashcroft, being religious cannot act properly in office.

Lets say he was a true athiest. Now say what you will, a true athiest if honest, acknowleges that there is no higher power. Oh there are other people who are higher on the food chain, but in reality, his judgement is equal to theirs. Freed thusly, he can afford to be amoral.


Ah, and who are you to talk about faulty arguments when you are saying atheist=amoral ? You can shut your mouth right there. :)

 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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I dont belive blindly what I read, news is reported by either those who support the news or those who are against it, but the news gets through most of the time. You just have to read behind the bias, read the facts and ignore the personal opinion. On this issue, I´v been reading this from way more than just one source, I just posted an example of some of the stuff i´v read from various sources.

We have to question actions taken by the authority regardless who is the "current" authority at the time.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Luckster, your testosterone and not your brains are showing.

The initial arrest was under Clinton, and I did not say I agreed with his rearrest

Did I say an athiest HAD to be amoral? No, and I said he could do his job. I constructed a contrary argument to show the absurdity of the one being used against Ashcroft. This technique has been used in debates for countless generations. However, since the my point seems to be above your comprehension, I'll bring it down to your level. If an amoral individual can do his job, then a moral one can. Wheither you agree with those values matters not. There are other points here, but I see they are too subtle for you.


Czar- I can respect your point of view, although I do not entirely agree with it. At least you are thinking, and that is something as rare as hen's teeth
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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Personally, I will not lose one second of sleep because the government has jailed a bunch of illegal immigrants.

In fact, the FBI moved in and arrested those who cheered the events of September 11th. The FBI accomplished this shortly after monitoring their phone calls to each other. The story was in the NY Times over a month ago.

Excerpts:

While the precise contents of the intercepted phone calls have not been disclosed, officials have said some were congratulatory, even gloating.

Law enforcement officials have said that, before Sept. 11, they did not believe they had sufficient evidence to ask a court to authorize wiretaps of people suspected of being Al Qaeda sympathizers. But after the attacks, the requests were quickly approved.


This indicates to me a much needed, proactive approach in dealing with the situation. Such conditions dictate harsh measures.

And you know something? With the exception of the Anthrax letters, there have been no more terrorist incidents since September 11th. Therefore, Attorney General Ashcroft is doing an outstanding job. All the stupid liberals think otherwise, so screw them!

Czar: Your whining and sniveling is, as always, the typical, weak-kneed European diatribe ever so critical of the big, bad USA. It's very easy to criticize from a damn rock out in the middle of the North Atlantic. Guess what? The United States is at war. Your country isn't.

And after a suitcase nuke is detonated in a major metropolitan area, everyone will be complaining that Ashcroft didn't do enough.

Vespasian: Yes, this is true. Then even more of these jack@ss liberals will come bailing out of the woodwork demanding his resignation. I strongly believe that we don't even give the terrorists a chance.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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<< Fortunantly Red, I don't think we have to worry about the likes of Ashcroft or his party going after our "swords and guns", which would give me cause for concern! >>

Our swords and guns are not what could be a stake, it's our personal freedoms. I'm not concerned at the moment with him but we should keep him on a short leash.



<< McCarthyism is long dead, >>

No it's not, it's just hibernating in the bowels of the Ultra Conservative extremists and their blind followers. When somebody is a follower of a religious cult that would do away with the rights of others as Ashcroft is then one should never feel to comfortable with him in a position of authority. Being uncomfortable with those in charge is healthy and keeps us on our toes and them in line.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126


<< McCarthyism is long dead, >>

No it's not, it's just hibernating in the bowels of the Ultra Conservative extremists and their blind followers. When somebody is a follower of a religious cult that would do away with the rights of others as Ashcroft is then one should never feel to comfortable with him in a position of authority. Being uncomfortable with those in charge is healthy and keeps us on our toes and them in line.[/i] >>



Red Dawn this is news!!!

Please share with us the religious cult to which Ashcroft belongs!!! I had no idea. And can you tell us more about that cult, how it intends to do away with our rights? There must be something out there you can share with us. Congratulations! You are in for a Pulitzer for this.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
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<< Please share with us the religious cult to which Ashcroft belongs!!! I >>

I'm sorry, I meant to say Fundementalist Christian.. as if there is a difference between a cult and the Fundies.