Why does everyone say a CS degree is worthless?

[TerryMathews]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
It won't be useless as long as companies need you to train some Indians.

The Indians have the right idea. They're coming here for school, then going home and having a job basically shipped to them.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Ameesh
i dont think my degree is worthless

Thats cause you work for de debil

My point is, do what you enjoy but take it seriously enough too. If you work and study hard, and take the job search serioiusly and make contacts etc, etc etc, you will find a job. Maybe you won't make 100k starting off, but you will be happy doing something you enjoy than being miserable and making a few more bucks.

fine message. Welcome.

Ghandi said it another way.

What you do is of little signifgance, but it's very important that you do it.

 

[FelixDeCat]

I disagree that ANY degree is worthless.

Even my degree in Trickology.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: yllus

So in all seriousness, is the market as hopeless as everyone seems to think? I plan on getting an internship over the summer to get some work experience.

Not in the least! If you're a competent 4-year graduate of the sciences, your initial worth is going to start out at a higher level than many of your non-pedigreed peers right away. University graduates are expected to have three edges on their competition:

1) They have a better in-depth knowledge than non-degree holders. That is, while any fool can memorize the syntax of SQL, there aren't many people who can plan out a 3-tier application/processing/storage system that uses a SQL database as its backend and holds some potential for expansion and flexibility down the line.

I'm not saying that degree holders automatically graduate with this additional knowledge - just that they can be expected by their employers to pick it up and implement it smartly if the need arises. They likely understand the theory behind multiple tier systems and the appropriate layout. That same expectation is not necessarily made with a graduate of DeVry.

2) A 4-year degree means that you are capable of learning, and learning faster than your peers who presumably couldn't cut it in university. We all know how quickly technology is moving. Who would you rather hire and expect to keep up with the flood?

The notion that the things you learn in university for Computer Science are useless is ludicrous. I don't know about you, but after I learned Pascal in grade 11 of high school and C++ in grade 12, I was able to adapt to writing any modern language in a week's time. Languages are a dime a dozen. Who cares. Pick up an O'Reilly book and you'll be set.

A comp sci graduate should know how and where to optimize the processing of any language. A comp sci graduate should know how to run tests to find inefficiencies and know how to address them. A comp sci graduate should realize that employers rarely ask for the best, most efficient solutions to programming issues - they'll be happy enough if it runs smoothly and you finish on deadline.

3) An university degree holder in computer science is expected to be a more well-rounded candidate than the average ITT Tech graduate. Someone who can make the odd PowerPoint presentation in front of the company executives, field their questions and have a game of golf with the CEO afterwards. Speak well, dress well, be a Candidate For Promotion (capitalization intended).

best post evar

 

[lukatmyshu]

Originally posted by: yllus

So in all seriousness, is the market as hopeless as everyone seems to think? I plan on getting an internship over the summer to get some work experience.

Not in the least! If you're a competent 4-year graduate of the sciences, your initial worth is going to start out at a higher level than many of your non-pedigreed peers right away. University graduates are expected to have three edges on their competition: 1) They have a better in-depth knowledge than non-degree holders. That is, while any fool can memorize the syntax of SQL, there aren't many people who can plan out a 3-tier application/processing/storage system that uses a SQL database as its backend and holds some potential for expansion and flexibility down the line. I'm not saying that degree holders automatically graduate with this additional knowledge - just that they can be expected by their employers to pick it up and implement it smartly if the need arises. They likely understand the theory behind multiple tier systems and the appropriate layout. That same expectation is not necessarily made with a graduate of DeVry. 2) A 4-year degree means that you are capable of learning, and learning faster than your peers who presumably couldn't cut it in university. We all know how quickly technology is moving. Who would you rather hire and expect to keep up with the flood? The notion that the things you learn in university for Computer Science are useless is ludicrous. I don't know about you, but after I learned Pascal in grade 11 of high school and C++ in grade 12, I was able to adapt to writing any modern language in a week's time. Languages are a dime a dozen. Who cares. Pick up an O'Reilly book and you'll be set. A comp sci graduate should know how and where to optimize the processing of any language. A comp sci graduate should know how to run tests to find inefficiencies and know how to address them. A comp sci graduate should realize that employers rarely ask for the best, most efficient solutions to programming issues - they'll be happy enough if it runs smoothly and you finish on deadline. 3) An university degree holder in computer science is expected to be a more well-rounded candidate than the average ITT Tech graduate. Someone who can make the odd PowerPoint presentation in front of the company executives, field their questions and have a game of golf with the CEO afterwards. Speak well, dress well, be a Candidate For Promotion (capitalization intended).

Well said,
To the guy who thinks that getting a Computer Science Degree is about learning a language, I am sorry that your school obviously doesn't know a thing about what the term "Computer Science" actually means. One of my internships was at a company that had hired a bunch of guys who didn't know how to program, gave them a VB in 21 days book and expected them to be competent programmers. It worked fine, as long as the solution to the problem was a case study in the book. The first time they encountered a problem that wasn't mentioned in the book ... they panicked. Languages are not what Computer Science is about, Languages are merely a tool used to express the solution to a problem. The solution to the problem is what Computer Science is about. To think of it another way, if you were going to be a carpenter ... would you have a class in "Hammering"? I'd hope not ... then why should you have a class in "C++" instead of "Data Structures"

teach a man C++ he'll get a job for a year,
teach a man CS and he'll get a job for life

 

[Homerboy]

I dont see how being proficient and Counter Strike is going to help you land a job

Sorry couldnt pass up the "CS"

 

[DT4K]

Five years ago, if you were a CS major, you would likely have multiple recruiters calling you with job offers before you even graduated. At that time, having a CS degree did pretty much guarantee you a high paying job.
In the last 3 years, things have changed quite a bit.
The dotcom bust, the economic recession, and the increasing trend of outsourcing programming work have hit the field pretty hard.
But that doesn't mean it's a worthless degree.
It just means that like many other fields, there is now more competition and you can't rely solely on your piece of paper to guarantee you some great high-paying job.

I graduated with my CS degree in 2001, not the best time to be looking for a job. My degree is from Southern Oregon University, not exactly the most elite program around.
But because I did well in my classes, I had a professor recommend me for a contract job doing programming 3 months before I graduated. One year after starting as a contractor at the Kodak manufacturing plant here in Southern Oregon, I was offered a permanent position as a developer. So I've been here for 2.5 years now and I'm making decent money (mid 50's) with great benefits. Kodak also hired three of my classmates for developer and network admin positions.

So for me, it hasn't been worthless at all. I still have concerns over what outsourcing is going to do to the job opportunities. But I think if you are good at it, there will continue to be opportunities in the field.

I would also disagree with those that say you should major in other fields. It is important to learn the fundamentals and having a 4 year degree is going to put you above those with self-taught programming skills when it comes to HR managers deciding who they want to interview.

 

It' not worthless. If you want to move to India.

All of you fresh out of the box grads do have very good reason to sweat.
Jobs are scarce, outsourcing is in, and budgets are down.

Real world experience at this point is much more valuable than a degree.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: lukatmyshu

Originally posted by: yllus

So in all seriousness, is the market as hopeless as everyone seems to think? I plan on getting an internship over the summer to get some work experience.

Not in the least! If you're a competent 4-year graduate of the sciences, your initial worth is going to start out at a higher level than many of your non-pedigreed peers right away. University graduates are expected to have three edges on their competition: 1) They have a better in-depth knowledge than non-degree holders. That is, while any fool can memorize the syntax of SQL, there aren't many people who can plan out a 3-tier application/processing/storage system that uses a SQL database as its backend and holds some potential for expansion and flexibility down the line. I'm not saying that degree holders automatically graduate with this additional knowledge - just that they can be expected by their employers to pick it up and implement it smartly if the need arises. They likely understand the theory behind multiple tier systems and the appropriate layout. That same expectation is not necessarily made with a graduate of DeVry. 2) A 4-year degree means that you are capable of learning, and learning faster than your peers who presumably couldn't cut it in university. We all know how quickly technology is moving. Who would you rather hire and expect to keep up with the flood? The notion that the things you learn in university for Computer Science are useless is ludicrous. I don't know about you, but after I learned Pascal in grade 11 of high school and C++ in grade 12, I was able to adapt to writing any modern language in a week's time. Languages are a dime a dozen. Who cares. Pick up an O'Reilly book and you'll be set. A comp sci graduate should know how and where to optimize the processing of any language. A comp sci graduate should know how to run tests to find inefficiencies and know how to address them. A comp sci graduate should realize that employers rarely ask for the best, most efficient solutions to programming issues - they'll be happy enough if it runs smoothly and you finish on deadline. 3) An university degree holder in computer science is expected to be a more well-rounded candidate than the average ITT Tech graduate. Someone who can make the odd PowerPoint presentation in front of the company executives, field their questions and have a game of golf with the CEO afterwards. Speak well, dress well, be a Candidate For Promotion (capitalization intended).

Well said,
To the guy who thinks that getting a Computer Science Degree is about learning a language, I am sorry that your school obviously doesn't know a thing about what the term "Computer Science" actually means. One of my internships was at a company that had hired a bunch of guys who didn't know how to program, gave them a VB in 21 days book and expected them to be competent programmers. It worked fine, as long as the solution to the problem was a case study in the book. The first time they encountered a problem that wasn't mentioned in the book ... they panicked. Languages are not what Computer Science is about, Languages are merely a tool used to express the solution to a problem. The solution to the problem is what Computer Science is about. To think of it another way, if you were going to be a carpenter ... would you have a class in "Hammering"? I'd hope not ... then why should you have a class in "C++" instead of "Data Structures"

teach a man C++ he'll get a job for a year,
teach a man CS and he'll get a job for life

Not in this market. One can make hyperbolic remarks about CS all they want, but the fact is that you NEED to know MANY languages profoundly in order to compete. It's not acceptable to simply say, "I have the background theory in order to quickly learn language X." The world of software is simply too vast, and with infinitessimal timelines given to complete large-scale projects experience will always reign. This clearly is not the case in academia, but is absolutely the case in industry.

Companies want results, and unfortunately they largely couldn't care less about the technical quality of what they commission. I lead a group of about 350 developers ranging from self-taught to PhD, and the ones that are unemployed generally lack one of the following two things: The ability to sell themselves, or experience. The former group applies to those who have skills, but they can't break through that social barrier that allows them to market their abilities. The latter group are generally fresh CS grads, or self-taught/DeVry/ITT Tech programmers who lack experience in noteable projects.

I understand my experience isn't the microcosm of the entire industry, but I believe those who are actually in the trenches will agree with me. There is plenty of opportunity for US programmers, but you have to get experience on large projects, and you have to build a network of contacts to elicit interest in your work. Doing so will generate a business value to your customers that exceeds their ability to commoditize your work to foreign workforces.

This industry is frustrating. Cheers to those who persevere! :beer:

 

Not in this market. One can make hyperbolic remarks about CS all they want, but the fact is that you NEED to know MANY languages profoundly in order to compete. It's not acceptable to simply say, "I have the background theory in order to quickly learn language X." The world of software is simply too vast, and with infinitessimal timelines given to complete large-scale projects experience will always reign. This clearly is not the case in academia, but is absolutely the case in industry.

Try and tell that to the world of idealist college kids.

 

[edro]

It doesn't matter what your degree is. It matters what you know how to do. If you are a really good C++ programmer, you will have NO PROBLEM finding a job.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: SammySon

Not in this market. One can make hyperbolic remarks about CS all they want, but the fact is that you NEED to know MANY languages profoundly in order to compete. It's not acceptable to simply say, "I have the background theory in order to quickly learn language X." The world of software is simply too vast, and with infinitessimal timelines given to complete large-scale projects experience will always reign. This clearly is not the case in academia, but is absolutely the case in industry.

Try and tell that to the world of idealist college kids.

I try. I run workshops dedicated to practical knowledge that can be applied to actual work. The workshops are often met with opposition and hubris from those who won't bother with Java, .NET, or anything deemed too practical to be interesting. The fact is that the one who can perform these tasks by rote will have a greater chance of obtaining a job than those who understand all the fundamentals but can't perform the task. A lot of companies simply haven't the budget to let programmers sit idle while learning what's necessary to complete their job functions.

 

I try. I run workshops dedicated to practical knowledge that can be applied to actual work. The workshops are often met with opposition and hubris from those who won't bother with Java, .NET, or anything deemed too practical to be interesting. The fact is that the one who can perform these tasks by rote will have a greater chance of obtaining a job than those who understand all the fundamentals but can't perform the task. A lot of companies simply haven't the budget to let programmers sit idle while learning what's necessary to complete their job functions.

Very true. The academic world and the real world are becoming further apart as time goes on. Academia has become a full time job for many people.

To quote myself

All of you fresh out of the box grads do have very good reason to sweat.
Jobs are scarce, outsourcing is in, and budgets are down.

The need for experienced, flexable workers is very high. The need for base-level moldable young grads is not.

 

[clamum]

Interesting thread...

My cousin knows a another student from Michigan Tech that had 5 job offers when he graduated and he wasn't even at the top of his class. Maybe it depends on your school too?

 

[Ameesh]

Originally posted by: americangigolo
Interesting thread...

My cousin knows a another student from Michigan Tech that had 5 job offers when he graduated and he wasn't even at the top of his class. Maybe it depends on your school too?

i had 9 offers and i was defintely not at the top of my class, and this was after the dot com bust so they werent handing out jobs like candy either.

 

[AMCRambler]

While jobs for programmers out there are getting quite scarce, I'd say CS is one of the best degrees to graduate with in the computer field. Out of IT, IS and CS, CS is definitely the hardest, at least at the school I graduated from, because of all the math you have to take with it. But with a CS degree you can still land that IT or IS job. A lot of the ones I see for IS or IT position always include CS as a major too. You don't see it the other way around too much for programming jobs listing IT or IS degrees. I would say out of the three CS gives you the most options(but programming gets BORING! Unless you're one of those people who can just eat and spit code all day!). I'm betting a lot of OT posters are programmers bored at work.

Oh yeah and experience does reign supreme! Everybody is looking for 2-3 years experience minimum. The words entry level don't seemed to exist when it comes to programming.

 

[marquee]

Remember when you were applying to college, and some people asked, whether it was better to take an honors class and get a B or better to take the regular version and get the A? And of course the clever answer was to take the honors class and get the A.

That's kinda how I view degrees and work experience. It's undeniable its an employers market out there. When they post a job, they have tons of resumes coming in. They can afford to be picky. Which means out of all the candidates, they're bound to find people with degrees AND experience. Getting a CS degree will place you above people that don't have the education, however, you still wont be as attractive a candidate as people with degrees and a few years experience. That doesn't mean your degree is necessarily worthless though.

I was a CMU CS grad myself. Most people I knew landed jobs eventually, but it definately wasn't a sure thing to be employed right of school.