Why does capitalism appear to work and communism does not?

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: Blurring
I'd like to hear you elaborate on how the US society is controlled by a small number of people. You can't compare wealth to control, and even if those elites can use their wealth to effect the entire population, the end result of that effect is mostly minimal. The economy runs our life, but change in it isn't brought about by the few. (The current housing disaster isn't due to the elites of the corporation alone, it's due to millions of people who can't manage their money.)

Perhaps it is a poor example, but I'll use phone/cable companies.

Those that had the vision for the industry were fortunate to have had the idea. In an undiscovered market they created a market (yay, capitalism works). What happened though is that greed takes over and everything is for the company (that's the job of a corporation). The corporation now uses it's monopoly position to buy power in the government (special lobby groups). Government now passes legislation that prevents competition.

If someone is lucky, they'll find their way into the elite so long as the other elite don't suffer. If you create a competiting product, you'll just get "bought out" by somone that was lucky enough to get to the top.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Blurring
I'd like to hear you elaborate on how the US society is controlled by a small number of people. You can't compare wealth to control, and even if those elites can use their wealth to effect the entire population, the end result of that effect is mostly minimal. The economy runs our life, but change in it isn't brought about by the few. (The current housing disaster isn't due to the elites of the corporation alone, it's due to millions of people who can't manage their money.)

Perhaps it is a poor example, but I'll use phone/cable companies.

Those that had the vision for the industry were fortunate to have had the idea. In an undiscovered market they created a market (yay, capitalism works). What happened though is that greed takes over and everything is for the company (that's the job of a corporation). The corporation now uses it's monopoly position to buy power in the government (special lobby groups). Government now passes legislation that prevents competition.

If someone is lucky, they'll find their way into the elite so long as the other elite don't suffer. If you create a competiting product, you'll just get "bought out" by somone that was lucky enough to get to the top.

So, it now boils down to government corruption = bad. Well, duh. There are hardcore capitalists who would argue that all government intervention in the economy is bad and should be outlawed the way church and state are separated.

 

[Epic Fail]

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Blurring
I'd like to hear you elaborate on how the US society is controlled by a small number of people. You can't compare wealth to control, and even if those elites can use their wealth to effect the entire population, the end result of that effect is mostly minimal. The economy runs our life, but change in it isn't brought about by the few. (The current housing disaster isn't due to the elites of the corporation alone, it's due to millions of people who can't manage their money.)

Perhaps it is a poor example, but I'll use phone/cable companies.

Those that had the vision for the industry were fortunate to have had the idea. In an undiscovered market they created a market (yay, capitalism works). What happened though is that greed takes over and everything is for the company (that's the job of a corporation). The corporation now uses it's monopoly position to buy power in the government (special lobby groups). Government now passes legislation that prevents competition.

If someone is lucky, they'll find their way into the elite so long as the other elite don't suffer. If you create a competiting product, you'll just get "bought out" by somone that was lucky enough to get to the top.

When the government intervenes in a market, aka central planning, it's no longer capitalism, it's the hallmark of communism.

 

[Blurring]

I think it's a good example, and a good point; the way our country runs is far from perfect. While it may be very hard to get to the top, the top only represents <.1% of our society. Small companies may get bought out, some monopolies do form, but in general there is a good balance of competition. I'm not an econ major though, I can't really talk about economics without sounding like an ass. What I can see though is that the effect those elites have on me, even the monopolies, doesn't effect me or control me to any significant degree. My needs are cheap and my luxuries barely more expensive. The rich class hasn't changed that. While I may not be able to make it all the way to the top, I have plenty of opportunity to work myself into an extreme life of leisure.

The real unfortunate controlling presence I do see is that of large-scale economic distribution. Being born into middle class gave me opportunities which others simply won't have. Breaking out of the 'cycle' and creating opportunity is incredibly difficult. How did these differences form originally though? Racism, corruption, etc. External factors that you can't blame an economic model on; factors that I think would have played an equal role in your utopia style society.

 

[Imdmn04]

Because humans are greedy and envious by nature.

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Blurring
I'd like to hear you elaborate on how the US society is controlled by a small number of people. You can't compare wealth to control, and even if those elites can use their wealth to effect the entire population, the end result of that effect is mostly minimal. The economy runs our life, but change in it isn't brought about by the few. (The current housing disaster isn't due to the elites of the corporation alone, it's due to millions of people who can't manage their money.)

Perhaps it is a poor example, but I'll use phone/cable companies.

Those that had the vision for the industry were fortunate to have had the idea. In an undiscovered market they created a market (yay, capitalism works). What happened though is that greed takes over and everything is for the company (that's the job of a corporation). The corporation now uses it's monopoly position to buy power in the government (special lobby groups). Government now passes legislation that prevents competition.

If someone is lucky, they'll find their way into the elite so long as the other elite don't suffer. If you create a competiting product, you'll just get "bought out" by somone that was lucky enough to get to the top.

So, it now boils down to government corruption = bad. Well, duh. There are hardcore capitalists who would argue that all government intervention in the economy is bad and should be outlawed the way church and state are separated.

I don't think it's just government corruption that is the problem. That's the problem in this society.

(in my opinion) Even if the government had no hand in the economy at all, the exact same problem would occur. The few that are lucky enough to create a market will use their position (and power gained by that position by the wealth they have) to influence those around them.

I dunno, I guess my whole problem lies in the idea of individual people (and society as a whole) trying to do whetever they can to protect themselves at the expense of others.

 

[BigToque]

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue for or against any particular point of view. I'm just trying to gedt a better understanding of both sides.

 

[tfcmasta97]

Originally posted by: BigToque
I'm not sure that my topic title accurately reflects what I'm thinking about at the moment, but I'm curious to know why capitalism seems to work and communism doesn't.

Over the last little while I've been thinking that a communist society is probably the ideal kind of society. Communist may not be the correct term so correct me if there is a better word for what I'm about to describe.

What I see as ideal is a society where every person has access to everything they ever wanted, and they get it for free from other people who provide services that provide those services simply because that's the service they enjoy providing.

I know the common complaint here is "what about the people who do nothing?". Truthfully, I don't even see that it would ever be a problem because if nobody had any reason to worry about not having to care for themselves (that's done for by the society) that they would willingly do something. They would do what actually made them happy. For some it would be science, for others plumbing, some would enjoy serving food and some would even enjoy cleaning. Not everyone is the same and every position is just as valuable to society.

The only problem that I can see with this (and it's obvisouly a real problem) is scarcity of resources and I wonder if this is where communism breaks down. Someone eventyally decides that they are going to dictate how resources are divided and we know how that works.


Now we have capitalism and while it does appear to work in theory, I have two problems with it.

First, what I really dislike about capitalism is that at its very core, society is divided against itself. It's every person for themselves.

In an ideal world, those that "work the hardest" succced and "get to the top". Anyone who works at it can get to the top.

We don't live in an ideal world and our resources are limited. So not only is everyone looking out for only their best interests, you have the element of greed factored in.

All that I see in our capitalistic society is that a very small percentage of the population is setting themselves up to be in power and control of everything. To me the idea of a free market is a total illusion.

In my head at the moment, both communism and capitalism lead to a small percentage of people controlling everything. It really seems to be two different ways to achieve the same goal.

Does capitalism seem to be working simply because it takes longer for the small percentage of people to gain control, thereby leaving society the illusion that their society is actually thriving?

The capitalist society pits everyone against themselves.
The communist society tries to unite for the greater good.
Both lead to the same end (total control by a small number of people).

Just some thoughts flowing and I'm trying to form some ideas about the world I live in...

If that's how you think communism works or why it really has failed, you should get some real information of it in action. communism's fucked up

 

[Insomniator]

Its not easy for hundreds of millions of us to live together in a society. Its amazing that it works as well as it does.

Sure in an ideal fantasy land everyone would work to help others, for the sake of helping others, and everyone has a 100% equal chance to succeed if they work at it. World peace. La la la la.

Capitalism, or whatever you wish to call it in America is as close as it gets to this fantasy. Sure not everyone that works hard gets to the top and not everyone that does nothing
is punished, but its working, despite the corrupt/wasteful government.

 

[aircooled]

Communism has greedy leaders that abuse.

Capitalism has greedy leaders that abuse.

 

[Mo0o]

Communism in practism would never work because to start up the system you need a central governning body and that body wields too much control. Not to mention in its real intended application, the freeloader problem would be immense.

Capitalism doesn't try to pit everyone against each other. THe ultimate end goal is to trade on the margins so that everyone benefits. And when you have to have something to offer in return, it motivates people to work.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: sandorski
"Capitalism" has never been tried. Otherwise, it would fail just as Communism did.

QFT

and this conversation was old 30 years ago. By now it's geriatric.

 

[Colt45]

Originally posted by: zinfamous
Communism doesn't work

visit Russia. Visit former occupied states. talk to the people that lived through it. SEE IT

reading about it in a book is simply not enough.

you'll realize then what an utter failure, and disgraceful abomination on human thought is communism. honestly, I was the typical adolescent "commies are cool; Che rocks!" douchebag for a few years. Then I learned a bit more. Then I saw the after-effects personally.

I grew up in the South, white, middle class...never was racist.

Until last year...
I've learned to fucking hate Russians. And I'm right to do so....
...there ya go.

You should have seen Russia under the tsar.

What after effects, for example?

 

[LS8]

Capitalism rewards hard work and growth, communism does not. Simple.

 

[skace]

I think I recall reading once that real communism has never actually been tested, because every nation that utilizes communism corrupts it for the benefit of the government. Perhaps it is easily corruptible, perhaps it's a pipe dream.

 

[UncleWai]

Originally posted by: LS8
Capitalism rewards hard work and growth, communism does not. Simple.

It's not that simple. Just use Monopoly the game as an example, once you start off in a shitty position, the whole game pretty much you are just waiting for your turn to go bankrupt. Same thing with Capitalism, your success path is pretty much pre-determined by your ancestors. Yeah once in a while you get outliers, but it's not common.

 

[LS8]

Originally posted by: UncleWai

Originally posted by: LS8
Capitalism rewards hard work and growth, communism does not. Simple.

It's not that simple. Just use Monopoly the game as an example, once you start off in a shitty position, the whole game pretty much you are just waiting for your turn to go bankrupt. Same thing with Capitalism, your success path is pretty much pre-determined by your ancestors. Yeah once in a while you get outliers, but it's not common.

Sorry I don't buy that argument. Some people always have an excuse why they can't succeed. It's never their fault.

 

[yhelothar]

Capitalism works where communism fails as it requires people to take responsibility for themselves. Communism gives everyone an entitlement to the same as everyone else, regardless how hard they work for it.
Humans, or any biological entity for that matter, operates in this world on the basis of competition. We are all on a struggle to survive based on limited resources. It is through this struggle that drives us into action.