Why does capitalism appear to work and communism does not?

[BigToque]

I'm not sure that my topic title accurately reflects what I'm thinking about at the moment, but I'm curious to know why capitalism seems to work and communism doesn't.

Over the last little while I've been thinking that a communist society is probably the ideal kind of society. Communist may not be the correct term so correct me if there is a better word for what I'm about to describe.

What I see as ideal is a society where every person has access to everything they ever wanted, and they get it for free from other people who provide services that provide those services simply because that's the service they enjoy providing.

I know the common complaint here is "what about the people who do nothing?". Truthfully, I don't even see that it would ever be a problem because if nobody had any reason to worry about not having to care for themselves (that's done for by the society) that they would willingly do something. They would do what actually made them happy. For some it would be science, for others plumbing, some would enjoy serving food and some would even enjoy cleaning. Not everyone is the same and every position is just as valuable to society.

The only problem that I can see with this (and it's obvisouly a real problem) is scarcity of resources and I wonder if this is where communism breaks down. Someone eventyally decides that they are going to dictate how resources are divided and we know how that works.


Now we have capitalism and while it does appear to work in theory, I have two problems with it.

First, what I really dislike about capitalism is that at its very core, society is divided against itself. It's every person for themselves.

In an ideal world, those that "work the hardest" succced and "get to the top". Anyone who works at it can get to the top.

We don't live in an ideal world and our resources are limited. So not only is everyone looking out for only their best interests, you have the element of greed factored in.

All that I see in our capitalistic society is that a very small percentage of the population is setting themselves up to be in power and control of everything. To me the idea of a free market is a total illusion.

In my head at the moment, both communism and capitalism lead to a small percentage of people controlling everything. It really seems to be two different ways to achieve the same goal.

Does capitalism seem to be working simply because it takes longer for the small percentage of people to gain control, thereby leaving society the illusion that their society is actually thriving?

The capitalist society pits everyone against themselves.
The communist society tries to unite for the greater good.
Both lead to the same end (total control by a small number of people).

Just some thoughts flowing and I'm trying to form some ideas about the world I live in...

 

[mcmilljb]

No one will work harder than someone else if they're both getting the same thing. That's why America is great. We fire our lazy workers. France needs to learn this.

I also think you might be thinking of socialism not communism.

 

[sandorski]

"Capitalism" has never been tried. Otherwise, it would fail just as Communism did.

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: mcmilljb
No one will work harder than someone else if they're both getting the same thing. That's why America is great. We fire our lazy workers. France needs to learn this.

I also think you might be thinking of socialism not communism.

If someone enjoys what they are doing, it doesn't matter that one had to "work harder" to do it.

If everything in my life that I could ever want is provided, I have no reason to not do the things that I wanted.

Nobody would "do nothing" as that gets boring very quickly.

Some people would build cars because they enjoy cars. Some people would dig minerals because they love exploration and also enjoy the product that those minerals are used for. Some people serve food because they enjoy being around people. Not everyone is a rocket scientist and might be totally content sweeping floors. That person who sweeps the floor is just as important as the rocket scientist.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: BigToque
I'm not sure that my topic title accurately reflects what I'm thinking about at the moment, but I'm curious to know why capitalism seems to work and communism doesn't.

Over the last little while I've been thinking that a communist society is probably the ideal kind of society. Communist may not be the correct term so correct me if there is a better word for what I'm about to describe.

What I see as ideal is a society where every person has access to everything they ever wanted, and they get it for free from other people who provide services that provide those services simply because that's the service they enjoy providing.

I know the common complaint here is "what about the people who do nothing?". Truthfully, I don't even see that it would ever be a problem because if nobody had any reason to worry about not having to care for themselves (that's done for by the society) that they would willingly do something. They would do what actually made them happy. For some it would be science, for others plumbing, some would enjoy serving food and some would even enjoy cleaning. Not everyone is the same and every position is just as valuable to society.

The only problem that I can see with this (and it's obvisouly a real problem) is scarcity of resources and I wonder if this is where communism breaks down. Someone eventyally decides that they are going to dictate how resources are divided and we know how that works.


Now we have capitalism and while it does appear to work in theory, I have two problems with it.

First, what I really dislike about capitalism is that at its very core, society is divided against itself. It's every person for themselves.

In an ideal world, those that "work the hardest" succced and "get to the top". Anyone who works at it can get to the top.

We don't live in an ideal world and our resources are limited. So not only is everyone looking out for only their best interests, you have the element of greed factored in.

All that I see in our capitalistic society is that a very small percentage of the population is setting themselves up to be in power and control of everything. To me the idea of a free market is a total illusion.

In my head at the moment, both communism and capitalism lead to a small percentage of people controlling everything. It really seems to be two different ways to achieve the same goal.

Does capitalism seem to be working simply because it takes longer for the small percentage of people to gain control, thereby leaving society the illusion that their society is actually thriving?

Just some thoughts flowing and I'm trying to form some ideas about the world I live in...

Your society couldn't work, because given unlimited resources (!= to reality), most people would glutton themselves to death. When a resource is unlimited and everyone can use as much of it as possible (air / water back when there were <6 billion humans), you can let anyone take as they please.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: sandorski
"Capitalism" has never been tried. Otherwise, it would fail just as Communism did.

The antebellum north was pretty damn close, and it was a thriving society.

 

[Blurring]

With everything being provided for, doing nothing (productive to the society) would be boring to almost nobody. How many people do you think would wake up saying, "As much as I love my big screen TV and top of the line computer, it's just too boring. Time to flip burgers at McDonalds!"

 

[FallenHero]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: BigToque
I'm not sure that my topic title accurately reflects what I'm thinking about at the moment, but I'm curious to know why capitalism seems to work and communism doesn't.

Over the last little while I've been thinking that a communist society is probably the ideal kind of society. Communist may not be the correct term so correct me if there is a better word for what I'm about to describe.

What I see as ideal is a society where every person has access to everything they ever wanted, and they get it for free from other people who provide services that provide those services simply because that's the service they enjoy providing.

I know the common complaint here is "what about the people who do nothing?". Truthfully, I don't even see that it would ever be a problem because if nobody had any reason to worry about not having to care for themselves (that's done for by the society) that they would willingly do something. They would do what actually made them happy. For some it would be science, for others plumbing, some would enjoy serving food and some would even enjoy cleaning. Not everyone is the same and every position is just as valuable to society.

The only problem that I can see with this (and it's obvisouly a real problem) is scarcity of resources and I wonder if this is where communism breaks down. Someone eventyally decides that they are going to dictate how resources are divided and we know how that works.


Now we have capitalism and while it does appear to work in theory, I have two problems with it.

First, what I really dislike about capitalism is that at its very core, society is divided against itself. It's every person for themselves.

In an ideal world, those that "work the hardest" succced and "get to the top". Anyone who works at it can get to the top.

We don't live in an ideal world and our resources are limited. So not only is everyone looking out for only their best interests, you have the element of greed factored in.

All that I see in our capitalistic society is that a very small percentage of the population is setting themselves up to be in power and control of everything. To me the idea of a free market is a total illusion.

In my head at the moment, both communism and capitalism lead to a small percentage of people controlling everything. It really seems to be two different ways to achieve the same goal.

Does capitalism seem to be working simply because it takes longer for the small percentage of people to gain control, thereby leaving society the illusion that their society is actually thriving?

Just some thoughts flowing and I'm trying to form some ideas about the world I live in...

Your society couldn't work, because given unlimited resources (!= to reality), most people would glutton themselves to death. When a resource is unlimited and everyone can use as much of it as possible (air / water back when there were <6 billion humans), you can let anyone take as they please.

Star Trek proves you wrong! Take THAT!

 

[bunnyfubbles]

perhaps because communism forces while capitalism encourages...its all about freedom...

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: Blurring
With everything being provided for, doing nothing (productive to the society) would be boring to almost nobody. How many people do you think would wake up saying, "As much as I love my big screen TV and top of the line computer, it's just too boring. Time to flip burgers at McDonalds!"

Doing anything is more gratifying than doing nothing. If nobody had to worry about their needs, guaranteed someone would flip burgers at McDonalds and be happy to do it. You'd actually get good food as opposed to the kids that work there now that slack off and work there because nobody else would hire them.

 

[mcmilljb]

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: mcmilljb
No one will work harder than someone else if they're both getting the same thing. That's why America is great. We fire our lazy workers. France needs to learn this.

I also think you might be thinking of socialism not communism.

If someone enjoys what they are doing, it doesn't matter that one had to "work harder" to do it.

If everything in my life that I could ever want is provided, I have no reason to not do the things that I wanted.

Nobody would "do nothing" as that gets boring very quickly.

Some people would build cars because they enjoy cars. Some people would dig minerals because they love exploration and also enjoy the product that those minerals are used for. Some people serve food because they enjoy being around people. Not everyone is a rocket scientist and might be totally content sweeping floors. That person who sweeps the floor is just as important as the rocket scientist.

I don't know. I would get sitting on the beach drinking a beer someone else made all day long.

My point is that capitalism gives people a reason to work. It's just that no one wants to play fair lately or be patient.

 

[Blurring]

I don't think you realize just how many jobs there are like that. There are over 1.5 million employees for McDonalds alone. You really think you could find enough people to fill every shitty job of that nature? Not in this society; especially not in a society where everything was provided.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Blurring
With everything being provided for, doing nothing (productive to the society) would be boring to almost nobody. How many people do you think would wake up saying, "As much as I love my big screen TV and top of the line computer, it's just too boring. Time to flip burgers at McDonalds!"

Doing anything is more gratifying than doing nothing. If nobody had to worry about their needs, guaranteed someone would flip burgers at McDonalds and be happy to do it. You'd actually get good food as opposed to the kids that work there now that slack off and work there because nobody else would hire them.

That is preposterous. If everything was free, we'd have a billion french restaurants and nobody to pay for it. Even if resources WERE unlimited, labor would not be. Nobody would want to build/do/make the crap. Ever watch the show "dirty jobs"? Somebody HAS to do those things or society disintegrates. If you had no incentive except for the "love of the job" people would say "fuck it" and go do something else.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Your story talks more about a hippie utopia than communism. Communism fails because it wants to treat every person as being equal, while there are always right-wing people who don't want to be equal but want to be superior. That's why pretty much every Communist state will turn to a dictatorship sooner or later, if it doesn't start as one already. In that it is not much different than a capitalist state, the few who hold the power want to benefit as much as possible from the rest of the population.

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: Blurring
I don't think you realize just how many jobs there are like that. There are over 1.5 million employees for McDonalds alone. You really think you could find enough people to fill every shitty job of that nature? Not in this society; especially not in a society where everything was provided.

Maybe in the society I'm thinking about you wouldn't need the 1.5 million employees like are currently needed in the society we have now.

 

[So]

Read "the road to serfdom" by F.A. Hayek. He makes a convincing argument in there that any centralized authority will eventually put the worst people in power.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Blurring
I don't think you realize just how many jobs there are like that. There are over 1.5 million employees for McDonalds alone. You really think you could find enough people to fill every shitty job of that nature? Not in this society; especially not in a society where everything was provided.

Maybe in the society I'm thinking about you wouldn't need the 1.5 million employees like are currently needed in the society we have now.

What would those people do, and where would the people who eat at mcdonalds eat?

 

[Blurring]

Sure, perhaps you wouldn't have fast food company A or B. But their overwhelming presence in our current society shows an obvious want by that society; you'd obviously have equivalents in your utopia. Just as 'So' said, a million french restaurants, but someone still has to clean the dishes.

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Your story talks more about a hippie utopia than communism. Communism fails because it wants to treat every person as being equal, while there are always right-wing people who don't want to be equal but want to be superior. That's why pretty much every Communist state will turn to a dictatorship sooner or later, if it doesn't start as one already. In that it is not much different than a capitalist state, the few who hold the power want to benefit as much as possible from the rest of the population.

Well maybe it's just a hippie utopia I'm thinking about. I acknowledge in my post that I may be using the wrong term.

 

[0roo0roo]

go read some ayn rand...
she has essays on capitalism

 

[BigToque]

With all these apparent problems with humans (greed, desire for control, laziness, etc), what makes capitalism any better than communism?

The capitalist society pits everyone against themselves.
The communist society tries to unite for the greater good.
Both lead to the same end (total control by a small number of people).

 

[Blurring]

Capitalist society doesn't necessarily pit everyone against each other. While two businesses may compete against each other, they are at the same time helping every single customer. Utilitarian outlook = positive. Beyond that, the majority of the super rich you're talking about got there because they had connections with the right people, not because they fought everybody else. Even if their only motive was themselves, the illusion that it wasn't had to be strong enough to get them to the top in the first place.

I'd like to hear you elaborate on how the US society is controlled by a small number of people. You can't compare wealth to control, and even if those elites can use their wealth to effect the entire population, the end result of that effect is mostly minimal. The economy runs our life, but change in it isn't brought about by the few. (The current housing disaster isn't due to the elites of the corporation alone, it's due to millions of people who can't manage their money.)

 

[Epic Fail]

The first chapter of any econ book will have the answer. Resources are limited and we optimize utility with a supply and demand market.

 

[Pocatello]

Originally posted by: Epic Fail
The first chapter of any econ book will have the answer. Resources are limited and we optimize utility with a supply and demand market.

Ah yes, Economic 101.

 

[zinfamous]

Communism doesn't work

visit Russia. Visit former occupied states. talk to the people that lived through it. SEE IT

reading about it in a book is simply not enough.

you'll realize then what an utter failure, and disgraceful abomination on human thought is communism. honestly, I was the typical adolescent "commies are cool; Che rocks!" douchebag for a few years. Then I learned a bit more. Then I saw the after-effects personally.

I grew up in the South, white, middle class...never was racist.

Until last year...
I've learned to fucking hate Russians. And I'm right to do so....
...there ya go.