• We should now be fully online following an overnight outage. Apologies for any inconvenience, we do not expect there to be any further issues.

Why does AMD suck?

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
2,023
275
126
If that was so, we would most likely cheer over Core 2 and Phenom performance today on 45nm, assuming the companies needed to run with a small profit.

It certainly wouldnt be better. It would be a direct disaster.

err...no
the 5 companies would have around 11M of revenue
20120905pcICinsightsChipR&D519.jpg


and that is close to TSMC, with is at 28nm...so 32nm is the worst case here :p
make that revenue shared with 2 companies, (IMO, the sweet spot)
and we would have a Ivy with a normal cooling
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
I'm not sure if the OP is serious in his question? :)
Why does BMW "suck" compared to Mercedes? Poor BMW owners :p

LOL Thats not reality . The reality in the case your using would be Mercedes Vs a 1937-73 voltswagon LOVE BUG. Thats a better fit . You had 2 world class cars in there . AMD has no world class cpus .
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
126
I find it very odd that this thread is still open, but the equally trolling "why does intel suck" thread got closed, and piesquared is banned but this thead's OP isn't.

Agreed, although Pie's thread has the added negative of being a parody. On the whole though, it was as legit as this one.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106
err...no
the 5 companies would have around 11M of revenue
20120905pcICinsightsChipR&D519.jpg


and that is close to TSMC, with is at 28nm...so 32nm is the worst case here :p
make that revenue shared with 2 companies, (IMO, the sweet spot)
and we would have a Ivy with a normal cooling

Intel deals with more than x86. Just like AMD with its GPUs. So that revenue wouldnt apply to x86. Plus Intel contains the foundry part too. And that puts us back to 45nm or so without the ROI to cover it. And AMDs current revenue is too low to even substain the company. Again, volume, volume and volume.

TSMC would most likely not be at 28nm now without Intel either.
 
Last edited:

USER8000

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2012
1,542
780
136
I find it very odd that this thread is still open, but the equally trolling "why does intel suck" thread got closed, and piesquared is banned but this thead's OP isn't.

It is strange as you would think all flamebaiting threads would be equally moderated.

Obviously,some people like beating a dead horse?? :D
 
Last edited:

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Agreed, although Pie's thread has the added negative of being a parody. On the whole though, it was as legit as this one.

The differance between the 2 topics is this one is true were as the other one pretty much a strike of vengance. As much as the other topic poster tries .. He can't change the fact were talking about CPus in a cpu section. He talking about APUs . That belong in graphics section or a section jjust for AMD apus. Because amd cpus are a no show core for core. It does fine at low performance 8 threaded aps . But comparred to intels 8 core 16 thread cpus there a no show so amd has to put their 8 cores against Intels 4. Thats the facts. PRICE PRICE PRICE . Were talking performance with intel you get what you pay for. With amd the same can be said. Because of price AMD should be in a class above arm but below intel .AMD is below arm in true effeciency SoC
 

Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
2,023
275
126
Intel deals with more than x86. Just like AMD with its GPUs. So that revenue wouldnt apply to x86. Plus Intel contains the foundry part too. And that puts us back to 45nm or so without the ROI to cover it. And AMDs current revenue is too low to even substain the company. Again, volume, volume and volume.

TSMC would most likely not be at 28nm now without Intel either.

wait....what make you think that those 5 companies would just sell x86?
no company in the todays market does this
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106
wait....what make you think that those 5 companies would just sell x86?
no company in the todays market does this

What makes you think they dont spend the majority of R&D on x86?

You still want to split up the R&D and expect miracles. Thats just not gonna happen. You would sit back with 5 companies with inferiour technology and products compared to today.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,455
5,842
136
But comparred to intels 8 core 16 thread cpus there a no show so amd has to put their 8 cores against Intels 4.

Actually, if you compare Sandy/Ivy Bridge and Bulldozer/Piledriver, the number of transistors used in a SB-E 4 core (1.16 billion) is closer to a Bulldozer/Piledriver 8 core (1.27 billion), and the 8 core Sandy Bridge E die has a far higher number (2.27B). (Numbers are taken from Anandtech, here.) That's why it makes sense for AMD to be targeting their PD pricing against IB, not against SB-E.

Anyway, I reiterate my point- the fact that this thread is still open is ridiculous. When is it going to be closed?
 

Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
2,023
275
126
What makes you think they dont spend the majority of R&D on x86?

You still want to split up the R&D and expect miracles. Thats just not gonna happen. You would sit back with 5 companies with inferiour technology and products compared to today.

that's why i said 2 companies is the sweet spot...they would have more than enought money
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106
that's why i said 2 companies is the sweet spot...they would have more than enought money

Today? Maybe. Tomorrow? No. The ratio of cost increase vs volume increase is not the same. Cost goes up much faster. Thats also why we have an upper boundary for what is economicly possible. Haswell uarch for example most likely cost around the same in R&D than AMDs entire revenue. And it only goes up.

The first chip cost billions and billions, the next cost what, 10$? ;)
 
Last edited:

Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
2,023
275
126
Today? Maybe. Tomorrow? No. The ratio of cost increase vs volume increase is not the same. Cost goes up much faster. Thats also why we have an upper boundary for what is economicly possible. Haswell uarch for example most likely cost around the same in R&D than AMDs entire revenue. And it only goes up.

imo,
today yes... tomorrow no, aswell
not because of R&D, but loking how american cpu market shrinked, when everybody have it's computer and they just buy a new one in like... 7 years? more?
when asia get satured, there will be only market for one company

...but the lack of cpu competition today, is what makes ivy "sucks"
yet, ivy was good at igp, because there is competition there
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106
imo,
today yes... tomorrow no, aswell
not because of R&D, but loking how american cpu market shrinked, when everybody have it's computer and they just buy a new one in like... 7 years? more?
when asia get satured, there will be only market for one company

...but the lack of cpu competition today, is what makes ivy "sucks"
yet, ivy was good at igp, because there is competition there

Why do IB "suck"? Because it doesn´t apply exactly what you wish? IB is all about what OEMs and majority of consumers are asking for. Also why we went from 95W TDP to 77W and so on. IGP because of competition? Ye sure, keep believing. Thats why AMD couldnt sell its APUs I assume, because IGP was such a big factor ;)

AMD is a dead x86 company for one simple reason, R&D.

You live in an illusion about how competition will make it all better, utterly disregarding the penalities. Unless its just for the pure shake of keeping AMD specificly alive.
 
Last edited:

Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
2,023
275
126
You live in an illusion about how competition will make it all better, utterly disregarding the penalities. Unless its just for the pure shake of keeping AMD specificly alive.

funny but that remembers atom, pointless upgrades for years...

but ARM or AMD, really have didn't had any impact on atom development
....Intel is just going to use OoO atom just for the lulz
 

BenchPress

Senior member
Nov 8, 2011
392
0
0
If you understand the rationale behind, it is a beautiful concept: Increase integer horsepower, decrease floating point horsepower as those loads can be offloaded to the GPU...
That is a completely wrong assumption on multiple levels. First of all, you can't take an application and just magically "offload" the work to somewhere else. It takes way more than simply recompiling it too. Developers have to put real effort into splitting the work between the CPU and GPU and keeping things properly synchronized and minimizing the data transfers and maximizing the concurrency. None of that is a problem with homogeneous computing. Now, these hurdles with heterogeneous computing could be acceptable if there was a lot to gain from it, but in reality the computing power of the average GPU really isn't much higher than that of the CPU, if at all. For instance the mainstream Haswell GT2 will have close to 500 GFLOPS of computing power on the CPU cores, which is more than its iGPU!

So the huge mistake AMD is making is thinking that GPU silicon is somehow completely different from CPU silicon. It's not. Intel proves that it's perfectly possible to increase the throughput of CPU cores by using wider SIMD vectors and things like gather support. These are GPU-like features, but without the disadvantages of heterogeneous computing. On top of that Haswell also strengthens the multi-core scalability with TSX support.
Unfortunately, while the engineering department delivered, the developer relationships team didn't. By the time BD arrived, fusion wasn't cohesive enough as Open CL was just gaining traction, and many high profile applications were still poorly threaded. The software to make BD shine wasn't there. Couple that with a very strong CPU from the competition, and the weak spots of the new concept were exacerbated. But the software is getting there. More and more applications are getting better threaded, or better yet, using Open CL.
Don't blame developers. They just go for the highest ROI, so they won't adopt an awkward architecture which demands them to put effort into offloading workloads, that has a minor market share, while the competition is offering a solution with higher chances of success that requires a mere recompile.

And no, this situation isn't changing in their favor. Software may be getting more threaded, but Amdahl's Law shows that there's always sequential code that holds things back. So single-threaded performance is still hugely important to scale things in the future. Intel's solution is to have a very wide core which can run either one thread or two threads very efficiently. TSX is also going to be indispensable for efficient fine-grained concurrency. Lastly, the adoption of OpenCL doesn't favor AMD over Intel either. Haswell's gather support makes the CPU cores very efficient at executing OpenCL code (not to mention everything else that doubles the throughput). And because it's homogeneous, it doesn't suffer from moving data back and forth between the CPU and GPU.
Wonder if we would be having these discussion had the developer relationships team at AMD had done a better job helping optimize software.
Help them how? By cheering? The only thing that would have helped is to give developers cold hard cash to cover for the cost of optimizing for a less developer-friendly architecture. Not exactly a great idea to spend their cash that way, especially given their position. And due to the inherent inefficiency of heterogeneous computing and the very small difference in computing density there's no guarantee at all that the software would actually be faster.

Given the hardware they had to deal with, I think the developer relationship team did everything in their power. It just was, and still is, a shitty architecture. Mark my words; continuing to pursue HSA and ignoring AVX2+/TSX would be the death of AMD. Even if they change their mind, the damage done since buying ATI and following their pipe dream might already be irreparable.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Actually, if you compare Sandy/Ivy Bridge and Bulldozer/Piledriver, the number of transistors used in a SB-E 4 core (1.16 billion) is closer to a Bulldozer/Piledriver 8 core (1.27 billion), and the 8 core Sandy Bridge E die has a far higher number (2.27B). (Numbers are taken from Anandtech, here.) That's why it makes sense for AMD to be targeting their PD pricing against IB, not against SB-E.

Anyway, I reiterate my point- the fact that this thread is still open is ridiculous. When is it going to be closed?

Now you want to count transitors? OK you win !
 

BenchPress

Senior member
Nov 8, 2011
392
0
0
C'mon, we all know Bulldozer sucks and Intel is ripping us off. There's nothing wrong with questioning why this is the state of things. Sure, the title could have been phrased as "Why does AMD not have a competitive architecture", but do we really need full political correctness and hide our disappointment?

If you don't like the topic because it's too confronting, then move on. You can't have threads you don't like closed by labeling it as trolling if we can give the OP the benefit of the doubt.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.