Why do you think the government is your hired thug?

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Capitalizt

Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare but only those specifically enumerated." -- Thomas Jefferson

[/thread]

Too bad he didn't get that in the Constitution, for you.

Uh... he did. The Preamble has no force of law.


And I must say, one of the most Orwellian aspects of the UHC debate is the constant invoking of "the poor." UHC isn't about the poor. UHC is about the old. The gerontocracy in America which feeds off the young.
Why can't you world savers be more honest?

UHC is about the poor, not the old.
We already have UHC for the old, it's called Medicare.
Why can't you world haters be more honest?

Quit trolling. Medicare is mostly worthless. UHC will continue and exacerbate the long trend of government redistributing wealth from young to old. That's a serious concern for its implementation, and one that shouldn't just be swept under the rug with the usual "don't ask questions" bullshit.

And I think you should recognize that, when advocating sweeping change, you are not "defending" against anything, "world haters" or whatever. That would be like Bush thinking he "defended" America by attacking Iraq.

Maybe you should quit trolling yourself.
Medicare is mostly worthless? Says who? You? If it's so worthless why did the Republicans expand it?
UHC will not exacerbate anything. In fact it will provide the same health care to young people that is ALREADY provided to old people.
I am advocating sweeping change because the health care system needs sweeping change.
And it's inevitable, because the current employer provided health care model is unsustainable in a global economy when the competition does not have to price runaway insurance premiums directly into their export prices. You can yell and scream all you want, UHC will happen sooner or later.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor
Oh yeah, senseamp, I meant to say it before to settle the argument: people who don't have insurance and aren't provided health care through charitable means can by all means FOAD on the streets of America.

Good luck convincing people to vote that way or finding politicians who support that position.

Good luck surviving when the SHTF here like it's about to in France. Welfare states all fail eventually. You're just ushering us towards destruction through the use of a crooked political system. And there are plenty of politicians who are against government health care.

Who are these politicians? Let them run on an anti-Medicare platform, and see what happens.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Capitalizt

Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare but only those specifically enumerated." -- Thomas Jefferson

[/thread]

Too bad he didn't get that in the Constitution, for you.

Uh... he did. The Preamble has no force of law.


And I must say, one of the most Orwellian aspects of the UHC debate is the constant invoking of "the poor." UHC isn't about the poor. UHC is about the old. The gerontocracy in America which feeds off the young.
Why can't you world savers be more honest?

UHC is about the poor, not the old.
We already have UHC for the old, it's called Medicare.
Why can't you world haters be more honest?

Quit trolling. Medicare is mostly worthless. UHC will continue and exacerbate the long trend of government redistributing wealth from young to old. That's a serious concern for its implementation, and one that shouldn't just be swept under the rug with the usual "don't ask questions" bullshit.

And I think you should recognize that, when advocating sweeping change, you are not "defending" against anything, "world haters" or whatever. That would be like Bush thinking he "defended" America by attacking Iraq.

Maybe you should quit trolling yourself.
Medicare is mostly worthless? Says who? You? If it's so worthless why did the Republicans expand it?
UHC will not exacerbate anything. In fact it will provide the same health care to young people that is ALREADY provided to old people.
I am advocating sweeping change because the health care system needs sweeping change.
And it's inevitable, because the current employer provided health care model is unsustainable in a global economy when the competition does not have to price runaway insurance premiums directly into their export prices. You can yell and scream all you want, UHC will happen sooner or later.

The Republicans expanded Medicare because they're a bunch of money grubbing political hacks. Do you disagree?

There's a good thread about health care in Canada over at AR15.com. They all hate socialized health care. People are prioritized by bureaucrats. The poor\old\unimportant get put at the end of lists, so they get health care last, and sometimes it takes years. Even "regular" people are shocked by how fast they can get health care when they get come to the US. Also, in Canada, even if you want to pay cash, you can't get better\faster care, that's against the rules.

So screw that. I'll continue to pay high rates for great care. Those who can't pay will have to rely on charity. Those not provided for by charity can FOAD.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Nebor
So screw that. I'll continue to pay high rates for great care. Those who can't pay will have to rely on charity. Those not provided for by charity can FOAD.

In your little rightwing UTOPIA. Don't confuse it with REALITY

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor
So screw that. I'll continue to pay high rates for great care. Those who can't pay will have to rely on charity. Those not provided for by charity can FOAD.

In your little rightwing UTOPIA. Don't confuse it with REALITY

I wish you medicare supporting Republican party shills would quit trying to force your beliefs on others and just let us be.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor
So screw that. I'll continue to pay high rates for great care. Those who can't pay will have to rely on charity. Those not provided for by charity can FOAD.

In your little rightwing UTOPIA. Don't confuse it with REALITY

I wish you medicare supporting Republican party shills would quit trying to force your beliefs on others and just let us be.

Huh? Whatever you are talking about, keep on wishing.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Nebor
First of all, I'd like to preface this post by saying that it is in regards to America, and intended to be responded to by Americans. It has nothing to do with America forcing it's collective beliefs on other nations or peoples.

Let me give a few examples, and I'll start with one near and dear to my own heart: Gun control. As an avid gun collector and self-defense advocate, I have never, not once in my life, advocated that anyone be forced to own or carry a gun. I think that is entirely a personal choice. And yet, proponents of gun control would presume to tell me how to live my life, and what property I can own. Note that I have no interest in restricting their freedom, or choices, yet they seek to restrict mine.

Next up: Universal Health Care. I don't need it. I don't want it. At this point in time, I can choose whether or not I want to spend my money and purchase any grade of health care I want. And those who want cheap, low quality health care can, at this time, choose to band together and create a low cost option for the poor. But that's not what they want. They want to use the government as their thug to take money from me, someone who doesn't want universal health care, and won't benefit from it at all. And that is part of the plan, just like any other insurance company works: You need a large amount of "customers" who don't make claims or cost you money in order to support all those others. So really, what you want to do is take my money (by force and threat of prison) in order to pay for your health care.

Now obviously there is such a thing as the social contract, but the concept is EXTREMELY simple. We give up the right to kill, maim and steal from one another in exchange for living in a society of law and order. The very basic principal of the social contract, and America, has always been "Your rights end where another's begin." Meaning simply that you can do whatever you want, as long as you're not violating anyone elses rights in doing so.

Alright authoritarian types, you're probably foaming at the mouth by now, so flame on.

kinda like the government imposing it's view of homosexuals, right? and let's also not forget the government imposing it's view of abortion.

universal health care isn't something that you will be forced to have regardless of whether you want it. it's giving it to those who do want or need it.

you don't want to pay taxes? tough fucking luck. this is real life and just because you feel like being a jackass who wants to impose YOUR views on those less fortunate doesn't mean you can. whether or not the government imposes taxes on you to improve the lives of other americans is not your call, nor should it be. if you love america so much, you should start thinking about your fellow man and how you can help america... not just yourself.

the selfish view of "i don't want to give pennies to something i personally don't need" hurts america.

what you're calling for is anarchy... freedom for everyone to do and own whatever the hell they please without government or regard for the hundreds of millions of other people living in this country with you.

the government expects you to not be such a stingy, self-absorbed bastard... it has nothing to do with thuggery. it's the price you pay for being an american and if you don't want to pay your dues, that's too bad. learn to help the country as a whole... once you can do that, we won't have as many domestic problems.

by the way, the government's not trying to take your guns away... they're trying to keep guns from getting in the hands of crazy people. well, actually, nevermind... maybe they are trying to take your guns away...

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor
So screw that. I'll continue to pay high rates for great care. Those who can't pay will have to rely on charity. Those not provided for by charity can FOAD.

In your little rightwing UTOPIA. Don't confuse it with REALITY

I wish you medicare supporting Republican party shills would quit trying to force your beliefs on others and just let us be.

Huh? Whatever you are talking about, keep on wishing.

You're the one supporting the Republicans and their elderly base's Medicare.

Why don't you just go help the people you want to help yourself, instead of being lazy and demanding other people to do your work for you?

I'm going to go take a homeless guy out to lunch today.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor
So screw that. I'll continue to pay high rates for great care. Those who can't pay will have to rely on charity. Those not provided for by charity can FOAD.

In your little rightwing UTOPIA. Don't confuse it with REALITY

I wish you medicare supporting Republican party shills would quit trying to force your beliefs on others and just let us be.

Huh? Whatever you are talking about, keep on wishing.

You're the one supporting the Republicans and their elderly base's Medicare.

Why don't you just go help the people you want to help yourself, instead of being lazy and demanding other people to do your work for you?

Because I have a job, and unlike you I don't want people to FOAD if they don't get charity healthcare.

I'm going to go take a homeless guy out to lunch today.

Good, maybe you can tell him to FOAD later

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: eits
kinda like the government imposing it's view of homosexuals, right? and let's also not forget the government imposing it's view of abortion.

universal health care isn't something that you will be forced to have regardless of whether you want it. it's giving it to those who do want or need it.

you don't want to pay taxes? tough fucking luck. this is real life and just because you feel like being a jackass who wants to impose YOUR views on those less fortunate doesn't mean you can. whether or not the government imposes taxes on you to improve the lives of other americans is not your call, nor should it be. if you love america so much, you should start thinking about your fellow man and how you can help america... not just yourself.

the selfish view of "i don't want to give pennies to something i personally don't need" hurts america.

what you're calling for is anarchy... freedom for everyone to do and own whatever the hell they please without government or regard for the hundreds of millions of other people living in this country with you.

the government expects you to not be such a stingy, self-absorbed bastard... it has nothing to do with thuggery. it's the price you pay for being an american and if you don't want to pay your dues, that's too bad. learn to help the country as a whole... once you can do that, we won't have as many domestic problems.

by the way, the government's not trying to take your guns away... they're trying to keep guns from getting in the hands of crazy people. well, actually, nevermind... maybe they are trying to take your guns away...

The government shouldn't be imposing views on homosexuality or abortion.

And yes, I will be forced to have Universal Health Care, because EVERYONE gets it, it's fucking UNIVERSAL. And they want EVERYONE (except those who want it) to pay for it!

Don't even try to turn this around and make this about me imposing my view on anyone. YOU are the one imposing on me. I could give a fuck what these poor uninsured people want to do. They're free to buy insurance, buy crack, or masturbate to furry porn. That's their right and their business, and it doesn't impact me at all. But when you say, "Well hey, Joe Schmoe needs an operation. I want you to pay for it, or we'll send an IRS swat team to your house to rob you at gunpoint," you're imposing on ME.

And in case you didn't pay attention to the rest of the thread, I do love America, and I do my best to HELP. But I don't force anyone else to help. I don't draw down on some guy in a suit walking down the road and demand that he buy Homeless Fred a new pair of shoes, or some penicillin. I volunteer helping indigent AIDS patients about 10 hours a week, and I donate plenty to charity, and I'm helping the local chapter of my college fraternity run a holiday dinner for christmas.

I WANT to help. But I will NOT be forced to help if I don't want to. So if you want people to be helped, please, get out there and help them. You'll make a difference, and feel great. But don't use a combination of your laziness and your guilt to impose on other people to do what you could be doing yourself.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Vic


And I think you should recognize that, when advocating sweeping change, you are not "defending" against anything, "world haters" or whatever. That would be like Bush thinking he "defended" America by attacking Iraq.

You are kidding, right?

"American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger," - President George W. Bush, March 20, 2003.

 

[theeedude]

I WANT to help. But I will NOT be forced to help if I don't want to.

We'll see about that

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor
So screw that. I'll continue to pay high rates for great care. Those who can't pay will have to rely on charity. Those not provided for by charity can FOAD.

In your little rightwing UTOPIA. Don't confuse it with REALITY

I wish you medicare supporting Republican party shills would quit trying to force your beliefs on others and just let us be.

Nebor, who did you vote for for president in 2000 and 2004 - the candidate who brought us the corrupt 'no price negotiation' Medicare expansion (Bush), or someone else?

I think Senseamp and I can answer 'someone else' who would not have passed that drug company windfall.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor
So screw that. I'll continue to pay high rates for great care. Those who can't pay will have to rely on charity. Those not provided for by charity can FOAD.

In your little rightwing UTOPIA. Don't confuse it with REALITY

I wish you medicare supporting Republican party shills would quit trying to force your beliefs on others and just let us be.

Huh? Whatever you are talking about, keep on wishing.

You're the one supporting the Republicans and their elderly base's Medicare.

Why don't you just go help the people you want to help yourself, instead of being lazy and demanding other people to do your work for you?

Because I have a job, and unlike you I don't want people to FOAD if they don't get charity healthcare.

I'm going to go take a homeless guy out to lunch today.

Good, maybe you can tell him to FOAD later

Now if you would propose something remotely reasonable like Health Care reform that just made insurance more affordable for people, I could get behind that, as long as it wasn't just a straight welfare program. There's a lot of stuff that can be done to make Health Care more reasonable, without taking money straight from me to give to someone less fortunate. As it stands, a lot of the people who don't have health care do have 2 kids, a cell phone, an ipod, and cable TV. But I should pay for their bad decisions, right?

Believe it or not, I'm a perfectly nice, social person. I don't tell people to FOAD unless they deserve it. But I'm in touch with reality, and I realize that there's not always enough to go around. Not enough money. Not enough Superbowl Tickets. Not enough turkey. Not enough health care. So yeah, put me at the hospital door, and I'll tell people who can't afford it that they have to FOAD. I won't enjoy the job, but I'd do it.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor
So screw that. I'll continue to pay high rates for great care. Those who can't pay will have to rely on charity. Those not provided for by charity can FOAD.

In your little rightwing UTOPIA. Don't confuse it with REALITY

I wish you medicare supporting Republican party shills would quit trying to force your beliefs on others and just let us be.

Nebor, who did you vote for for president in 2000 and 2004 - the candidate who brought us the corrupt 'no price negotiation' Medicare expansion (Bush), or someone else?

I think Senseamp and I can answer 'someone else' who would not have passed that drug company windfall.

I wrote in my own name, like I always do.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Vic


And I think you should recognize that, when advocating sweeping change, you are not "defending" against anything, "world haters" or whatever. That would be like Bush thinking he "defended" America by attacking Iraq.

You are kidding, right?

"American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger," - President George W. Bush, March 20, 2003.

No, I am not kidding. I used that analogy on purpose with exactly that quote in mind. Authoritarians only pretend that they are different from each other by taking up different causes. Contrasted to the normal population, however, the self-appointed would-be despots are more or less all the same, except for being of differing opinions as to what is the best way to enslave the human race for its own good, and as punishment for their being born.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: eits
kinda like the government imposing it's view of homosexuals, right? and let's also not forget the government imposing it's view of abortion.

universal health care isn't something that you will be forced to have regardless of whether you want it. it's giving it to those who do want or need it.

you don't want to pay taxes? tough fucking luck. this is real life and just because you feel like being a jackass who wants to impose YOUR views on those less fortunate doesn't mean you can. whether or not the government imposes taxes on you to improve the lives of other americans is not your call, nor should it be. if you love america so much, you should start thinking about your fellow man and how you can help america... not just yourself.

the selfish view of "i don't want to give pennies to something i personally don't need" hurts america.

what you're calling for is anarchy... freedom for everyone to do and own whatever the hell they please without government or regard for the hundreds of millions of other people living in this country with you.

the government expects you to not be such a stingy, self-absorbed bastard... it has nothing to do with thuggery. it's the price you pay for being an american and if you don't want to pay your dues, that's too bad. learn to help the country as a whole... once you can do that, we won't have as many domestic problems.

by the way, the government's not trying to take your guns away... they're trying to keep guns from getting in the hands of crazy people. well, actually, nevermind... maybe they are trying to take your guns away...

The government shouldn't be imposing views on homosexuality or abortion.

And yes, I will be forced to have Universal Health Care, because EVERYONE gets it, it's fucking UNIVERSAL. And they want EVERYONE (except those who want it) to pay for it!

Don't even try to turn this around and make this about me imposing my view on anyone. YOU are the one imposing on me. I could give a fuck what these poor uninsured people want to do. They're free to buy insurance, buy crack, or masturbate to furry porn. That's their right and their business, and it doesn't impact me at all. But when you say, "Well hey, Joe Schmoe needs an operation. I want you to pay for it, or we'll send an IRS swat team to your house to rob you at gunpoint," you're imposing on ME.

And in case you didn't pay attention to the rest of the thread, I do love America, and I do my best to HELP. But I don't force anyone else to help. I don't draw down on some guy in a suit walking down the road and demand that he buy Homeless Fred a new pair of shoes, or some penicillin. I volunteer helping indigent AIDS patients about 10 hours a week, and I donate plenty to charity, and I'm helping the local chapter of my college fraternity run a holiday dinner for christmas.

I WANT to help. But I will NOT be forced to help if I don't want to. So if you want people to be helped, please, get out there and help them. You'll make a difference, and feel great. But don't use a combination of your laziness and your guilt to impose on other people to do what you could be doing yourself.

sorry, universal healthcare is not a plan that EVERYONE is forced to get. it's a safety net. if you don't have health insurance, you have the universal health care to fall back on. there's no imposition on you, except to pay a couple pennies from your paycheck for the greater good of the country. "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country." a little bit of change towards helping others isn't asking a lot.

you're forced to pay taxes if you want to live in this country. that's just how it is, whether it be here or anyplace else.

think about what you're implying when you say that you want to pay to help and not be forced to... do you think our country would be better off with that kind of flawed policy? where do you think our military would be? how about government intelligence and research? how would we pay back the national debt? where would the government get enough money to aid other nations in times of need (natural disasters and such)? there aren't many people who'd have the presence of mind to give sums of money towards things they're unaware of. it's much, MUCH more efficient to take a little bit of change out of peoples' paychecks to go towards improving america than to fall back on a greedy people like you giving money whenever they feel like it.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: senseamp

I WANT to help. But I will NOT be forced to help if I don't want to.

We'll see about that

You realize that the wealthy people like you and I have a lot more political power than the poor unwashed masses, right? And we definitely don't want to let go of that money.

And if you pass UHC, and raise our taxes to pay for it, you're going to see a dramatic reduction in the the funds donated to private charities. But hey, the government knows best what to do with our money anyway.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Nebor
So screw that. I'll continue to pay high rates for great care. Those who can't pay will have to rely on charity. Those not provided for by charity can FOAD.

In your little rightwing UTOPIA. Don't confuse it with REALITY

I wish you medicare supporting Republican party shills would quit trying to force your beliefs on others and just let us be.

Huh? Whatever you are talking about, keep on wishing.

You're the one supporting the Republicans and their elderly base's Medicare.

Why don't you just go help the people you want to help yourself, instead of being lazy and demanding other people to do your work for you?

Because I have a job, and unlike you I don't want people to FOAD if they don't get charity healthcare.

I'm going to go take a homeless guy out to lunch today.

Good, maybe you can tell him to FOAD later

Now if you would propose something remotely reasonable like Health Care reform that just made insurance more affordable for people, I could get behind that, as long as it wasn't just a straight welfare program. There's a lot of stuff that can be done to make Health Care more reasonable, without taking money straight from me to give to someone less fortunate. As it stands, a lot of the people who don't have health care do have 2 kids, a cell phone, an ipod, and cable TV. But I should pay for their bad decisions, right?

Your ilk had 15 years after killing Hillary Care to propose and pass these health care reforms.
WHERE ARE THEY? Instead they did nothing and let the problems get worse. Now time is up.

Believe it or not, I'm a perfectly nice, social person. I don't tell people to FOAD unless they deserve it. But I'm in touch with reality, and I realize that there's not always enough to go around. Not enough money. Not enough Superbowl Tickets. Not enough turkey. Not enough health care. So yeah, put me at the hospital door, and I'll tell people who can't afford it that they have to FOAD. I won't enjoy the job, but I'd do it.

If that's the case, why aren't working to get laws that require hospitals to treat people regardless of their ability to pay revoked?
Seems to me like you are just burdening hospitals to take the heat off your anti-UHC position.
Go stand outside an ER with a sign that says "If you can't pay, go FOAD."

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: eits
kinda like the government imposing it's view of homosexuals, right? and let's also not forget the government imposing it's view of abortion.

universal health care isn't something that you will be forced to have regardless of whether you want it. it's giving it to those who do want or need it.

you don't want to pay taxes? tough fucking luck. this is real life and just because you feel like being a jackass who wants to impose YOUR views on those less fortunate doesn't mean you can. whether or not the government imposes taxes on you to improve the lives of other americans is not your call, nor should it be. if you love america so much, you should start thinking about your fellow man and how you can help america... not just yourself.

the selfish view of "i don't want to give pennies to something i personally don't need" hurts america.

what you're calling for is anarchy... freedom for everyone to do and own whatever the hell they please without government or regard for the hundreds of millions of other people living in this country with you.

the government expects you to not be such a stingy, self-absorbed bastard... it has nothing to do with thuggery. it's the price you pay for being an american and if you don't want to pay your dues, that's too bad. learn to help the country as a whole... once you can do that, we won't have as many domestic problems.

by the way, the government's not trying to take your guns away... they're trying to keep guns from getting in the hands of crazy people. well, actually, nevermind... maybe they are trying to take your guns away...

The government shouldn't be imposing views on homosexuality or abortion.

And yes, I will be forced to have Universal Health Care, because EVERYONE gets it, it's fucking UNIVERSAL. And they want EVERYONE (except those who want it) to pay for it!

Don't even try to turn this around and make this about me imposing my view on anyone. YOU are the one imposing on me. I could give a fuck what these poor uninsured people want to do. They're free to buy insurance, buy crack, or masturbate to furry porn. That's their right and their business, and it doesn't impact me at all. But when you say, "Well hey, Joe Schmoe needs an operation. I want you to pay for it, or we'll send an IRS swat team to your house to rob you at gunpoint," you're imposing on ME.

And in case you didn't pay attention to the rest of the thread, I do love America, and I do my best to HELP. But I don't force anyone else to help. I don't draw down on some guy in a suit walking down the road and demand that he buy Homeless Fred a new pair of shoes, or some penicillin. I volunteer helping indigent AIDS patients about 10 hours a week, and I donate plenty to charity, and I'm helping the local chapter of my college fraternity run a holiday dinner for christmas.

I WANT to help. But I will NOT be forced to help if I don't want to. So if you want people to be helped, please, get out there and help them. You'll make a difference, and feel great. But don't use a combination of your laziness and your guilt to impose on other people to do what you could be doing yourself.

sorry, universal healthcare is not a plan that EVERYONE is forced to get. it's a safety net. if you don't have health insurance, you have the universal health care to fall back on. there's no imposition on you, except to pay a couple pennies from your paycheck for the greater good of the country. "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country." a little bit of change towards helping others isn't asking a lot.

you're forced to pay taxes if you want to live in this country. that's just how it is, whether it be here or anyplace else.

think about what you're implying when you say that you want to pay to help and not be forced to... do you think our country would be better off with that kind of flawed policy? where do you think our military would be? how about government intelligence and research? how would we pay back the national debt? where would the government get enough money to aid other nations in times of need (natural disasters and such)? there aren't many people who'd have the presence of mind to give sums of money towards things they're unaware of. it's much, MUCH more efficient to take a little bit of change out of peoples' paychecks to go towards improving america than to fall back on a greedy people like you giving money whenever they feel like it.

Yes, clearly I am a terrible person. Terrible. Because I see what a clusterfuck EVERY government program is. Because I realize that government is innately inefficient. Because I see how well socialized health care works in Canada and England. Because I think I know what to do with my money better than the government. Because I help the people that I see need help. :roll:

You are more than welcome to roll over on your belly and give everything you have to the government. No one is stopping you. Just don't expect me to do the same. I'll fight and die for my autonomy, for my freedom, and for what is rightfully mine.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Capitalizt

Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare but only those specifically enumerated." -- Thomas Jefferson

[/thread]

Too bad he didn't get that in the Constitution, for you.

Uh... he did. The Preamble has no force of law.


And I must say, one of the most Orwellian aspects of the UHC debate is the constant invoking of "the poor." UHC isn't about the poor. UHC is about the old. The gerontocracy in America which feeds off the young.
Why can't you world savers be more honest?

UHC is about the poor, not the old.
We already have UHC for the old, it's called Medicare.
Why can't you world haters be more honest?

Quit trolling. Medicare is mostly worthless. UHC will continue and exacerbate the long trend of government redistributing wealth from young to old. That's a serious concern for its implementation, and one that shouldn't just be swept under the rug with the usual "don't ask questions" bullshit.

And I think you should recognize that, when advocating sweeping change, you are not "defending" against anything, "world haters" or whatever. That would be like Bush thinking he "defended" America by attacking Iraq.

Maybe you should quit trolling yourself.
Medicare is mostly worthless? Says who? You? If it's so worthless why did the Republicans expand it?
UHC will not exacerbate anything. In fact it will provide the same health care to young people that is ALREADY provided to old people.
I am advocating sweeping change because the health care system needs sweeping change.
And it's inevitable, because the current employer provided health care model is unsustainable in a global economy when the competition does not have to price runaway insurance premiums directly into their export prices. You can yell and scream all you want, UHC will happen sooner or later.

You advocate sweeping changes because you are too ignorant to understand how complicated the issues actually are, and because your masters like it that way so that you give them a blank check.
And as usual, I have to remind you that the existence of a problem does not dictate its solution. That's knee-jerking. That "something" must be done does not tell us what that something is.
Case in point: you don't even know what UHC should look like. It's just a simple utopist fantasy in your head. Details, how it should be implemented, etc etc don't even exist to you, except as real world "trivialities" that you don't even want to hear about, and whose mere mentioning you take offense to.

I love your last sentence BTW for it irony. I'm not yelling and screaming. You are. And petulantly at that. And the one thing I know for certain is that, whether UHC "happens" or not, you will still be yelling and screaming then. For you, nothing is good enough now, and nothing will be good enough for you later. No matter what happens, you will always be demanding sweeping change, even after you've gotten it. How can you not see that? And, most importantly, why do all the rest of us have to pay for your personal unhappiness with the world?

 

[Craig234]

Palehorse, let's not waste time on the topics that aren't the real issue, and instead note that our disagreement is the basic issue of whether the government can do a good enough job on healthcare. Our disagreement goes down to the point of disagreeing on whether they do a good enough job on other current programs.

Based on that, how are we going to agree on this one? IMO, you are arguing nonsensically at times on those smaller issues - one minute, you're demanding exact costs of a yet-unknown program, listing multiple candidates who have some program suggested without knowing which of them will be president, the next you're blasting one of those candidates for not saying what the costs would be.

When I try to explain a simple concept to you such as weighing the pros and cons instead of adopting an absurd 'no negative change at all' requirement without considering the benefits you respond irrationally.

You asked one question - if the best solution could be a private sector solution with minimal government involvement, would I agree to that? The answer is I would not only agree to it, I'd prefer it. Government is not my first choice for things - it's my 'when it's better than the alternatives' choice. I don't want the government running GM, or Microsoft, or Anandtech. But from my reading on the matter, I don't see the private sector as offering the best solution for the insurance for this issue. We may disagree on that, but my answer to your question *if* they offered it, is yes. As for the delivery - I'm not committed now to an answer; I want to look at the government delivering healthcare and see how it compares, and am open to that solution. Am I open to one-payer healthcare with private delivery as an improvement, *possibly* as a step towards government delivery and *possibly* as the best solution without government delivery? Sure. As I said, I have concerns about the current systems in places like England - they have some improvements and some worse things. One system I hear from Thom Hartmann works well is in Germany - haven't seen that discussed here (or in Sicko).

You haven't said anything about your own suggestion, as far as I recall, given that you admit the current system is 'broken', other than that it's private sector. Want to say anything about it?

BTW, on the VA, I understand they're considered very efficient overall. Other than the current administration's problems, such as the cronies they appoint to run things and their poor funding priorities, there's a lot of good to say about the VA, including how it competes - and beats - private sector healthcare in efficiency generally. Do I want to just use it as-is for society? No. But we disagree about it doing well now.

Which system are you using currently - I thought you are active-duty military. Are you on your wife's insurance for your family, or did I misunderstand?

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Capitalizt

Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare but only those specifically enumerated." -- Thomas Jefferson

[/thread]

Too bad he didn't get that in the Constitution, for you.

Uh... he did. The Preamble has no force of law.


And I must say, one of the most Orwellian aspects of the UHC debate is the constant invoking of "the poor." UHC isn't about the poor. UHC is about the old. The gerontocracy in America which feeds off the young.
Why can't you world savers be more honest?

UHC is about the poor, not the old.
We already have UHC for the old, it's called Medicare.
Why can't you world haters be more honest?

Quit trolling. Medicare is mostly worthless. UHC will continue and exacerbate the long trend of government redistributing wealth from young to old. That's a serious concern for its implementation, and one that shouldn't just be swept under the rug with the usual "don't ask questions" bullshit.

And I think you should recognize that, when advocating sweeping change, you are not "defending" against anything, "world haters" or whatever. That would be like Bush thinking he "defended" America by attacking Iraq.

Maybe you should quit trolling yourself.
Medicare is mostly worthless? Says who? You? If it's so worthless why did the Republicans expand it?
UHC will not exacerbate anything. In fact it will provide the same health care to young people that is ALREADY provided to old people.
I am advocating sweeping change because the health care system needs sweeping change.
And it's inevitable, because the current employer provided health care model is unsustainable in a global economy when the competition does not have to price runaway insurance premiums directly into their export prices. You can yell and scream all you want, UHC will happen sooner or later.

You advocate sweeping changes because you are too ignorant to understand how complicated the issues actually are, and because your masters like it that way so that you give them a blank check.
And as usual, I have to remind you that the existence of a problem does not dictate its solution. That's knee-jerking. That "something" must be done does not tell us what that something is.
Case in point: you don't even know what UHC should look like. It's just a simple utopist fantasy in your head. Details, how it should be implemented, etc etc don't even exist to you, except real world "trivialities" that you don't even want to hear about.

I love your last sentence BTW for it irony. I'm not yelling and screaming. You are. And petulantly at that. And the one thing I know for certain is that, whether UHC "happens" or not, you will still be yelling and screaming then. For you, nothing is good enough now, and nothing will be good enough for you later. No matter what happens, you will always be demanding sweeping change, even after you've gotten. How can you not see that? And, most importantly, why do all the rest of us have to pay for your personal unhappiness with the world?

Because this is not rocket science. It has been tried and is working in many countries. We can look at their models and pick the best of what we want and not what we don't want. A good model would be where the government provides baseline preventative and basic health care to everyone, and private insurers provide supplemental coverage for those who want to cover what is not covered by the government plan. Seems like having preventative and basic health care be universal is a better plan than what we have now, where the baseline care that is available to everyone is at the ER at the most expensive late stage of the disease. Or you think it's better to make ER care available to everyone like it is now, but penny pinch on preventative care? Seems like penny wise pound foolish to me.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: eits
kinda like the government imposing it's view of homosexuals, right? and let's also not forget the government imposing it's view of abortion.

universal health care isn't something that you will be forced to have regardless of whether you want it. it's giving it to those who do want or need it.

you don't want to pay taxes? tough fucking luck. this is real life and just because you feel like being a jackass who wants to impose YOUR views on those less fortunate doesn't mean you can. whether or not the government imposes taxes on you to improve the lives of other americans is not your call, nor should it be. if you love america so much, you should start thinking about your fellow man and how you can help america... not just yourself.

the selfish view of "i don't want to give pennies to something i personally don't need" hurts america.

what you're calling for is anarchy... freedom for everyone to do and own whatever the hell they please without government or regard for the hundreds of millions of other people living in this country with you.

the government expects you to not be such a stingy, self-absorbed bastard... it has nothing to do with thuggery. it's the price you pay for being an american and if you don't want to pay your dues, that's too bad. learn to help the country as a whole... once you can do that, we won't have as many domestic problems.

by the way, the government's not trying to take your guns away... they're trying to keep guns from getting in the hands of crazy people. well, actually, nevermind... maybe they are trying to take your guns away...

The government shouldn't be imposing views on homosexuality or abortion.

And yes, I will be forced to have Universal Health Care, because EVERYONE gets it, it's fucking UNIVERSAL. And they want EVERYONE (except those who want it) to pay for it!

Don't even try to turn this around and make this about me imposing my view on anyone. YOU are the one imposing on me. I could give a fuck what these poor uninsured people want to do. They're free to buy insurance, buy crack, or masturbate to furry porn. That's their right and their business, and it doesn't impact me at all. But when you say, "Well hey, Joe Schmoe needs an operation. I want you to pay for it, or we'll send an IRS swat team to your house to rob you at gunpoint," you're imposing on ME.

And in case you didn't pay attention to the rest of the thread, I do love America, and I do my best to HELP. But I don't force anyone else to help. I don't draw down on some guy in a suit walking down the road and demand that he buy Homeless Fred a new pair of shoes, or some penicillin. I volunteer helping indigent AIDS patients about 10 hours a week, and I donate plenty to charity, and I'm helping the local chapter of my college fraternity run a holiday dinner for christmas.

I WANT to help. But I will NOT be forced to help if I don't want to. So if you want people to be helped, please, get out there and help them. You'll make a difference, and feel great. But don't use a combination of your laziness and your guilt to impose on other people to do what you could be doing yourself.

sorry, universal healthcare is not a plan that EVERYONE is forced to get. it's a safety net. if you don't have health insurance, you have the universal health care to fall back on. there's no imposition on you, except to pay a couple pennies from your paycheck for the greater good of the country. "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country." a little bit of change towards helping others isn't asking a lot.

you're forced to pay taxes if you want to live in this country. that's just how it is, whether it be here or anyplace else.

think about what you're implying when you say that you want to pay to help and not be forced to... do you think our country would be better off with that kind of flawed policy? where do you think our military would be? how about government intelligence and research? how would we pay back the national debt? where would the government get enough money to aid other nations in times of need (natural disasters and such)? there aren't many people who'd have the presence of mind to give sums of money towards things they're unaware of. it's much, MUCH more efficient to take a little bit of change out of peoples' paychecks to go towards improving america than to fall back on a greedy people like you giving money whenever they feel like it.

Yes, clearly I am a terrible person. Terrible. Because I see what a clusterfuck EVERY government program is. Because I realize that government is innately inefficient. Because I see how well socialized health care works in Canada and England. Because I think I know what to do with my money better than the government. Because I help the people that I see need help. :roll:

You are more than welcome to roll over on your belly and give everything you have to the government. No one is stopping you. Just don't expect me to do the same. I'll fight and die for my autonomy, for my freedom, and for what is rightfully mine.

just keep in mind that the anarchy you're calling for will never work in america and will only destroy us from the inside out. anarchists like you just don't understand that.

also, just because england and canada run their healthcare system a certain way doesn't mean we're going to fall in line with them.

the benefit of having the government decide where the money goes is that they're smarter than you and they know more about things than you. yeah, sometimes there's wasting here and there and that's unfortunate, but that doesn't mean we should do away with the system in order to impose a FAR less efficient system.

quit being so damn greedy and cough up some pennies to help people you don't know anything about... it's not going to hurt you.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eits
there's no imposition on you, except to pay a couple pennies from your paycheck for the greater good of the country. "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country." a little bit of change towards helping others isn't asking a lot.

"Pennies"?!? Current estimates, based on the short list of proposed UHC plans, including Hillary's, show that the average cost in increased taxes will range between $500 and $1000, per tax payer, per month!

And you have the audacity to sit there and call that "pennies"?!

think about what you're implying when you say that you want to pay to help and not be forced to... do you think our country would be better off with that kind of flawed policy? where do you think our military would be?

Stop using the military strawman. National defense is an explicit provision of our federal governance. UHC is not.

where would the government get enough money to aid other nations in times of need (natural disasters and such)?

We shouldn't be doing so... as often, or with as much $.

it's much, MUCH more efficient to take a little bit of change out of peoples' paychecks to go towards improving america than to fall back on a greedy people like you giving money whenever they feel like it.

"a little bit of change"...LOL! You're delusional!

And how can he be both greedy AND giving at the same time? derrrRrrr