Why do YOU prefer Linux over Windows?

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stash

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2000
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Originally posted by: TGS

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The first link requires some specific combinations of proxy/cache/firewall servers and web servers, rather than some inherent vulnerability in the web server itself.

The second link is a vulnerability in webDAV, not IIS. WebDAV is not enabled by default on Server 2003 with IIS6 installed.

Since everyone loves to throw secunia numbers around, here's some. They report two vulnerabilities, with the highest criticality of moderate. Neither is a vuln in IIS6 itself.

http://secunia.com/product/1438/

Now compare this to Apache 2.0.x, which has had 28 security bulletins according to Secunia, 8% of which are currently unpatched.

http://secunia.com/product/1438/

Like someone said, trust and credibility are earned.
 

TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
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By default IIS 5 has WebDAV enabled, and in IIS 6 it is not. If someone loaded WebDAV they could fall victim to this exploit without a patched system. To claim zero vulnerabilities, with a patch to prevent IIS from crashing itself is rather odd.

I'm not saying that Microsoft isn't making progress, just that a blanket statement that IIS 6 is bulletproof is putting the horse before the cart in my eyes.

Edit: I think that saying it has zero unpatched known exploits would be more correctly phrased.

Edit 2: Your apache link should be apache 2
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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That's exactly right.

IIS 6 by default had no vunerabilities.. but then again it only realy has the ability to serve static pages. Once you start enabling more and more features then you start to run into problems. For instance there is flaws with ASP.NET that you have to take into account (by patching) when running a IIS 6 server.

(edit: Currently ASP.NET has 4 unresolved advisories according to the secunia scorebook method. )

One of the major reasons why IIS 5 sucked so much was because everything was on by default and Microsoft included lots of smaple programs and such that openned holes. IIS 6 doesn't have that, it's all disabled by default.

Now if IIS 6 was setup with the same defaults as IIS 5 and had zero security vunerabilities, then that's certainly something remarkable.


Then of course there is Apache 1.3.x versions which are on a proven code base and have as few flaws as IIS 6 does, even with most it's features taken into account. The majority of very large sites still use 1.3 versions.. and besides that only probably 20-30 apache websites actually use 'official' releases of Apache. Most everything has been modified and put on by third party companies.

That's not to say that Apache is superior then IIS 6. Especially when you lump Apache's problems with OpenSSL problems. IIS 6 is something that Microsoft has does something well with. Microsoft has gotten better.
 

dwcal

Senior member
Jul 21, 2004
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Freedom and community.

For one example of freedom, compare making a custom bootable liveCD, say BartPE vs. Morphix (based on Knoppix). I know the latest BartPE automates much of the process, but you have to jump through all kinds of hoops to comply with Microsoft's license, and at the core it's still an unsupported hack. With Knoppix, you have the freedom to hack, to build anything you want from it without Microsoft's permission.

About community, I know we have good communities of Windows users too like here at AT, but in the Linux and Free Software world that community extends all the way to the developers hacking on the code. Big difference.
 

Seeruk

Senior member
Nov 16, 2003
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Morning everyone - see it's been toasting nicely overnight :)

Doornail - you aint worth the effort buddy. Trading insults became boring for me around my 8th birthday.

Anyhoo.... webservers eh? Well we use a LAMP stack as expressed earlier for one reason. Not that it is more secure, I think it and IIS are pretty much on a par these days although I don't profess the indepth knowledge to say so (just the feeling I get reading around). But the reason is simply that most script kiddies and the like are solely MS focused. Apache feels like a smaller target though I doubt its even relevant any more as hacks on a webserver tend to depend on the content already being served and using it to your advantage. Thats why I hire people to look after the web security side and they do a superb job :)
I have my own personal web servers and they are also LAMP, but it does seem easy to lock down an apache conf file
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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Originally posted by: Seeruk
Morning everyone - see it's been toasting nicely overnight :)

Doornail - you aint worth the effort buddy. Trading insults became boring for me around my 8th birthday.
Interesting. It makes want to try to figure out exactly when you decided to stop maturing then. I am guessing 12-16 or so.

Anyhoo.... webservers eh? Well we use a LAMP stack as expressed earlier for one reason. Not that it is more secure, I think it and IIS are pretty much on a par these days although I don't profess the indepth knowledge to say so (just the feeling I get reading around). But the reason is simply that most script kiddies and the like are solely MS focused. Apache feels like a smaller target though I doubt its even relevant any more as hacks on a webserver tend to depend on the content already being served and using it to your advantage. Thats why I hire people to look after the web security side and they do a superb job :)
I have my own personal web servers and they are also LAMP, but it does seem easy to lock down an apache conf file

LAMP is actually, IMO, pretty overhyped. Free/OSS has better things to offer... ruby, perl, or python for instance have their own unique advantages.. Postgresql and Firebird are generally better database products. What makes LAMP wonderfull, though, is it's near universal acceptance... Almost all webhosting companies and such will offer varying levels of support for mysql and php on top of apache.

As far as security goes I suspect that "LAMP" resides a bit below IIS 6 on scale of things. It's had it's problems. And the scale of the target that it posses is very high.

Apache itself takes nearly 70% of the web server market, with Linux itself at probably 40-55%. Many big companies often choose windows due to internal dependancies, but if you look at the busiest business websites they tend to reflect the rest of the population on the internet and are dominated by Apache systems.
 

Seeruk

Senior member
Nov 16, 2003
986
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Yeah I would have to say the universalness (<<-- even a word? :) ) is a big factor... we use Mambo (now joomla) for a lot of stuff as a CMS, but pretty much every alternative is also based on a lamp stack.
Thus the availability of people with the appropriate skills is great and its very easy to find someone with php/mysql skills compared to someone with python/postgres
 

hooflung

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2004
1,190
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Originally posted by: Malak
Cost

Came with every computer I've bought, so doesn't really cost me anything.

Not ONLY have YOU paid for it. But you have added to an illegal ring of software distribution. If you are smart enough to make a post about this you should be smart enough to read the newspaper/news sites/law articles on how MS has illegally used its monopoly. Market Trends in computer prices, software, peripherals have all been set by Microsoft in some way. Everytime you buy an ink cartridge for your printer... you are at microsofts hands. Get real.

Freedom

What freedom do I not have? I haven't met any constraints on my activities, whereas in Linux I did.

Emphasis on "MY ACTIVITIES."

Security

As I've explained many times in the past, you don't need this on Windows. It's all paranoia. I have never paid a dime for security and never will, and I've never needed it. I don't even run free software. People get a virus or spyware because they are either ignorant or do things they shouldn't be doing. If you are smart enough to run Linux, you are smart enough to safely run Windows without any trouble. I've never had a virus at home, I run spyware scans once every 2 months just in case(very rarely anything shows up), I have no active virus protection or a firewall. Everything thinks the internet is a war and you need protection, but I seemed to have missed the battle.

Your mileage has varied... congrats to you. I, however, have about 100 people banging down my door to fix their spyware infested PCs because Microsoft hasn't updated IE in 5 years. Oh yeah, IE6 has been in a 2 year lawsuit because it is in violation of copyright laws for the very corn hole that allows the malwar in. Just Desserts?

I have modified my GUI to maximize functionality, including features standard on Linux(ie multiple desktops). There is zero reason for me to ever switch to any OS, let alone Linux.

Your never at maximum functionality in windows. Nor are you at maximum optimizations. Linux isn't some silver lining, but many features in windows through window blinds and upcoming features in Vista are BLATENT COPIES of GNU work done for the Open Source community. So like IBM/Microsoft was with the macOS for os2 and windows 3.0, like mac to xerox before them, the big M is ripping off other's work and giving back nothing. Sounds like a line from some pirate movie jonny depp was in. YARRR.

If someone's taste dictates they should use Linux, fine. Personally, I'd lean towards MacOS before Linux, but that's just me. I don't care for Linux myself.

It runs deeper than taste my friend. Try cost. Go ahead and give to the money machines because they can satisfy your current computing need. When users demand for innovation I guess you will be riding the tailcoats of Microsofts 4 year old operating system that is comming out NEXT year.

 

hooflung

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2004
1,190
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Originally posted by: STaSh
Trust and credibility is earned, Stash. It doesn't automatically reset after some arbitrary timer.

Exactly. Exhibit A: IIS6, with zero vulnerabilities.

Thats like saying the Ozone is perfect. You must be a part of the oilegarchy too? Do you spit on people that have "Anti-WAR" and "Bood for Gas" signs outside the courts on friday too?
 

stash

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2000
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Thats like saying the Ozone is perfect. You must be a part of the oilegarchy too? Do you spit on people that have "Anti-WAR" and "Bood for Gas" signs outside the courts on friday too?

WTF?

Try posting something remotely relevant to the conversation at hand.
 

Seeruk

Senior member
Nov 16, 2003
986
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
You're funny Seeruk, in a twisted, slightly blinded little way. :laugh:

One tries ones best and the OpenBSD branded rose-tinted contact lenses I am told will arrive posthaste

 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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Originally posted by: Seeruk
Yeah I would have to say the universalness (<<-- even a word? :) ) is a big factor... we use Mambo (now joomla) for a lot of stuff as a CMS, but pretty much every alternative is also based on a lamp stack.
Thus the availability of people with the appropriate skills is great and its very easy to find someone with php/mysql skills compared to someone with python/postgres


sure.

you should learn python though if you can program php and stuff. It's fun and I am sure that you can think of all these little utilities to build and such that would be handy for other people your associated with.

Although to get the most out of developing with it your going to have to use a OS with proper dependancy handling capabilities (example: Debian.). There are lots of code aviable and keeping track of the versioning and such of a million modules of code is difficult without it. Although there are handy programs to turn python programs into simple stand alone executables for less package-capable systems like Windows. It's getting more common for game makers to use python as the main language and then optimize speed-sensitive items with other languages and/or using gaming engines and such.

Not realy something you can do with php, but python can do web also. ;)
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
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Originally posted by: drag
Originally posted by: Seeruk
Yeah I would have to say the universalness (<<-- even a word? :) ) is a big factor... we use Mambo (now joomla) for a lot of stuff as a CMS, but pretty much every alternative is also based on a lamp stack.
Thus the availability of people with the appropriate skills is great and its very easy to find someone with php/mysql skills compared to someone with python/postgres


sure.

you should learn python though if you can program php and stuff. It's fun and I am sure that you can think of all these little utilities to build and such that would be handy for other people your associated with.

Although to get the most out of developing with it your going to have to use a OS with proper dependancy handling capabilities (example: Debian.). There are lots of code aviable and keeping track of the versioning and such of a million modules of code is difficult without it. Although there are handy programs to turn python programs into simple stand alone executables for less package-capable systems like Windows. It's getting more common for game makers to use python as the main language and then optimize speed-sensitive items with other languages and/or using gaming engines and such.

Not realy something you can do with php, but python can do web also. ;)
Oh yeah, if one religious war per thread weren't enough, you guys have to drag the other one in, programming languages... :D :D :D

 

Seeruk

Senior member
Nov 16, 2003
986
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Originally posted by: gsellis
Not realy something you can do with php, but python can do web also. ;)
Oh yeah, if one religious war per thread weren't enough, you guys have to drag the other one in, programming languages... :D :D :D
[/quote]

PMSL :)

Yeah I have been surprised to hear the python name in a few games over recent years (I think Eve Online is one ... my favourite game of all time!). I don't doubt its capabilities but it aint something I have personally had enough time to investigate, nor is it one that appears on the CV's I read..... perhaps an indication that I should learn it for a fat pay packet :)

 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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Originally posted by: Seeruk
Originally posted by: gsellis
Not realy something you can do with php, but python can do web also. ;)
Oh yeah, if one religious war per thread weren't enough, you guys have to drag the other one in, programming languages... :D :D :D

PMSL :)

Yeah I have been surprised to hear the python name in a few games over recent years (I think Eve Online is one ... my favourite game of all time!). I don't doubt its capabilities but it aint something I have personally had enough time to investigate, nor is it one that appears on the CV's I read..... perhaps an indication that I should learn it for a fat pay packet :)

[/quote]

Sure.

A couple other games that use Python are BattleFeild 2 (IA logic and other elements) and Civilzation 4.
 

hooflung

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2004
1,190
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Originally posted by: STaSh
Thats like saying the Ozone is perfect. You must be a part of the oilegarchy too? Do you spit on people that have "Anti-WAR" and "Bood for Gas" signs outside the courts on friday too?

WTF?

Try posting something remotely relevant to the conversation at hand.


I did. You say IIS 6.0 is secure. I say that is like saying their aren't holes in the ozone layer of the atmosphere. I likened your statement to a croney that will bring up rubbish and F.U.D. to petitioners of the powers that be.

Hence, why some use GNU/Linux users advocate they will not spend money for a product that doesn't benefit the market in ANY way ANY more. They bullied their software onto the market, their are better products that do similar if not more efficient ways. But there is always someone to dispell progress with statements, like yours, which was not only false but out of place.

How many countries, counties, social groups, supreme court rulings and market analysts does it take to prove microsoft is as close to OPEC as it gets. I question you, a windows advocate, so that I can understand your motives and thought process and possibly to provoke you to actually commit your thoughts on your stance. Seems to me like you are like a gasoline user because it gets YOU to work and to hell with the monopoly that controls the quality of life for all people who need transportation. Similar to Operating Systems, seems to me you advocate windows based on the fact it does a good job at what YOU do at work/home and to hell with the quality of life for all people who need productivity and innovation to sustain a market.

As a market we should be beyond using gasoline as our main fuel just as we should be beyond allowing microsoft to dictate pretty much completely how we buy, sell, use and experience our computers and peripherals. If you cannot see the similarities have fun waving your Microsoft flag.
 

stash

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2000
5,468
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I did. You say IIS 6.0 is secure. I say that is like saying their aren't holes in the ozone layer of the atmosphere. I likened your statement to a croney that will bring up rubbish and F.U.D. to petitioners of the powers that be.

Except your analogy is flawed. IIS6 is secure, that is a fact. Your statement would be more apropo to drivel from the Firefox website.

Seems to me like you are like a gasoline user because it gets YOU to work and to hell with the monopoly that controls the quality of life for all people who need transportation.

Not that this is at ALL relevant, but I take the Metro to work. When I do drive, I drive a car that gets 28MPG on average, and I buy gas maybe once a month.

Similar to Operating Systems, seems to me you advocate windows based on the fact it does a good job at what YOU do at work/home and to hell with the quality of life for all people who need productivity and innovation to sustain a market.

Did you miss my first post in this thread? I could care less what OS people use. Use whatever works for you. Unlike you, I don't equate my choice of OS to political causes. Maybe you should spend more time outside or with people.
 

stash

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2000
5,468
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ok ok...:) IIS6 (properly configured) is secure as of today

I'm not saying there will never be a vuln found in IIS6. I'm saying there are none today, this is a fact. Which is why the ozone analogy falls apart.
 

PorscheMaD911

Member
Feb 7, 2005
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I really want to like Linux, but just can't do what I'd like to be able to with any distro I've tried. I've tried FC4, Suse, Mandrake, Debian, Ubuntu, Slackware, Damn Small Linux, Knoppix, CentOS and SimplyMepis, and I can't seem to find one that quite works with my hardware etc. I also game, but mostly racing games, so Linux leaves me hanging a bit there.

I love the Linux concept, and I love installing an OS and having OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird, GAIM etc just there and working, but I don't like the dodgey support for my soundcard (Chaintech AV-710), although SUSE worked fine. But most of all, I just can't handle living without my racing games, so with a clean XP Pro boot, with all the prettiness and clutter turned off, and IE and Outlook replaced, I'm quite happy.

If Linux had better hardware support, easier driver installation (NVIDIA!) and wider game support, I'd use it in a flash!
 

gdvbel

Junior Member
Jun 25, 2005
5
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"If I want to go from A to B with my car, I don't want to devote my time to first find out how my car is working."

That's a quote from a Windows user who expressed it adequately :Linux users first have to know how the car works, before it can get them from A to B.
In Windows it's easy : you get into the car, and drive to B. It's more intuitive to use.

I'd like to say that I prefer Linux over Windows, because it's been a couple of months that I try to get the hang of it - but I don't.

I used "Pardus", a very interesting "live cd" for Turkey (it will be used as THE national operating system : it merges open source, linux and windows, but you'll first have to set the language to English to be able to use it). I used every flavour of linux that worked flawlessly on my hardware : Suse linux 10, Novell Linux desktop 9, knoppix, Libranet 3.0 (bought it for 89 dollars, you can't say I didn't try), kanotix. And kanotix still is my favorite because of excellent hardware support. I installed it on my computer and my laptop (yes, there is a harddisk install script) dualbooting with windows , but I don't use it that often. Because for videocapping from tv, and for every other action I do with the computer, I have every possible program I need in Windows. To make Windows a little bit safer, my browsers are Firefox and Opera. And I use the mail client of Netscape.

It requires a different kind of thinking to use Linux. It is as if a right-handed person suddenly has to do everything with his left hand. Or it requires a different brain ; I think that Linux-users are more intelligent.

And you need a lot more time to find how everything works, that's why I quit using Linux Furthermore : hardware manufacturers almost exclusively deliver windows drivers.


When Lorenz talked about "imprinting" (remember the little goose that adopts Lorenz as its mother, because he is the first thing it sees), I guess this also applies to the human that is exposed to his first computer operating system ever : it just grows on him, or we get accustomed to it. I'm in my fifties, and had to learn everything by myself : I began by buying a second hand computer with windows installed, and I consulted the internet for everything I didn't know. Fortunately for me, about 90 percent of all computer users use Windows, so I quickly found answers to every possible question, because numerous people have the same problems, and decide to dedicate a website to it in the flavours superintelligent over normal to dumb. In the library there were numerous book about the use of windows.

Furthermore, almost every kid grows up with windows, and consequently learns to program within the windows environment. Which leaves us with tons of free programs of beginning programmers for every possible task we would like to execute. And this is a second pillar of the strength of Microsoft.

However, the several Linux distributions now try to convince the average user, and are trying to put systems together with the same ease of use of Windows. That's why Novell has taken on Suse linux : it gives Suse linux for free to the public, let the public solve all the difficulties, and will then integrate all the useful features into "novell linux desktop" (you can still get this excellent os for free, with a free update during 90 days - after that you'll have to use the paid option if you want further updates), which will be the client software for businesses that use the Novell server software. As I see it, the new Linuxes will have to be paid for, because a lot of effort will go towards the support of the hardware. And every distribution is working on easy package installation (e.g. :klik in kanotix live-cd, a bit like the exe in Windows, which contains all dependencies it needs)

About the imprinting : in Thailand the most succesful OS is Linux, as the government is
giving it all its support in the educational system, + Linux seems to be the system that best supports the Thai language.

So I guess that Microsoft won't be able to break that monopoly. Or they'll have to change
their pricing policy.

The only thing I deplore in Windows is that I'm not able to grant myself, being logged in as user - just for the period of the installation of a program the rights of a super-user (or administrator in Windows terms) as is possible in certain Linux-distributions. Because this is the safest option qua security.

As Windows easily gets corrupted by wrong installs (divx or xvid drivers, etc), I make back-ups frequently, and I have clones of my hard disk. So yes, windows isn't clearly the best system, but I have my workarounds for the worst situations. And I have my collection of 1001 utilities, functioning perfectly in Windows. At 50 it's too time-consuming to replace all this.

The proof that it is not that easy to migrate from Windows to Linux is offered by the city of Munich, where they have given themselves two years more to finish this collossal task, as every administrator as well as the computersavvy employees had their own hand-crafted scripts, and now have to port everything to Linux

I didn't intend to be advocate of the devil - only it turned out that way.
But I'm curious with every new Linux distribution to see the evolution.




 
Nov 10, 2005
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personally, for an end-user, I would be surprised to find a end user who prefers Linux over Windows, ESPECIALLY if they play games

---------------------COMMENT------------------------------
That Baouncing ball Game with WIN 95...or 98, is gone from XP....
Now its with KDE known as KBounce, what a game, its great stuff.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
although price is going down on MS OSs, Office's price is inexplanitory!!! truly unbelievable when you can get Google Office AKA Openoffice.org now in its almost stable 2.0 points..... KUBUNTU is sooo coool!! The smoothest coolest TUX OS of the moment, and with OpenSuSE 10 here aswell, I hope to see EXTREME PROGRESS from Apple AND Linux, and any other OS by XMAS NExt year, Next year....

MS - WINDOWS VISTA
APPLE - MAC OS X ??????
LINUX - (Depends...) SuSE 11/12 and Kubuntu with KDE 5, KDE 5, its gonna be TOP or a FLOP..... lets wait and see...
SUN - PROJECT LOOKING GLASS , Finished, with decent apps, Google it, a proper 3D World.....
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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Originally posted by: gdvbel
"If I want to go from A to B with my car, I don't want to devote my time to first find out how my car is working."

That's a quote from a Windows user who expressed it adequately :Linux users first have to know how the car works, before it can get them from A to B.
In Windows it's easy : you get into the car, and drive to B. It's more intuitive to use.

In unix and unix-like systems you do the same thing. You get in your car and drive. You don't have to know the internals of a combustion engine, you don't have to know everything about the power train, you just have to know how to drive. Just like any other OS.