Why is that? It seems you have more of a problem with religion than the idea of a creator. I don't trust any source of information after its been propagated through so many sources, and that includes the Bible. Why would a creator capable of creating everything that is fundamental (the "works too damned well" part of your argument) use such a high-level medium (human language) and nefarious conduit (man) to represent him? I've always had a problem with the idea that man is required to propagate god's will, and that the idea of "bible study" is in itself a paradox.
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Why do you believe in God?
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Why is that? It seems you have more of a problem with religion than the idea of a creator. I don't trust any source of information after its been propagated through so many sources, and that includes the Bible. Why would a creator capable of creating everything that is fundamental (the "works too damned well" part of your argument) use such a high-level medium (human language) and nefarious conduit (man) to represent him? I've always had a problem with the idea that man is required to propagate god's will, and that the idea of "bible study" is in itself a paradox.
JustAnAverageGuy
Diamond Member
It's had plenty of time to fix itself before we came along 😉
Assuming he existed and is described as is in the bible. I agree with you.
CrazyHelloDeli
Platinum Member
My statment is in no way arrogant, and shows I realize my irrelevancy and insignificance. Put down the thesaurus, and read what I said.
upsciLLion
Diamond Member
Look it up in more detail if you want. It was by Aquinas if I remember right, his watchmaker argument. Of course that also deals a lot with the purpose of the universe if what I pulled off google and off the top of my head is correct. There's also a famous refutation that goes with it, but I can't seem to find that one now. Don't have the philosophy text handy that I read them in.
Okay, fair enough, perhaps that was a little far. The egotist and prick comment originate from religion and all the mandates that they requires we follow in order to appease God. If you believe they're divinely influenced, ergo the word of God, then you can draw some of those conclusions. Alternately, you can look at the fact that you have an all powerful being, coterminous with all time and space (ah, love Lovecraft. Does apply to the usual three-fold god of philosophy well, too) who therefore has a lot of time and power on his hands and refuses to do anything to blatantly prove his existence. Something like (to borrow from Douglas Adams) 50 foot high flaming letters saying "Universe (C) God. Made in year 0" or something along those lines. Why hide at all behind religion?
That also can tie into my final point, that he's a shoddy workman. According to religion, and general belief, God will reward the righteous after death and punish the wicked. Whether they go to Hell, or oblivion, or back into the system for another try is up to whatever belief system is under discussion, but the end result is the requirement for refinement and ultimate discarding of material. So why build a universe in which this is necessary at all? Sin, suffering, and separation from God, why are they needed at all? Why not create a system in which those weren't even factors? It's not like God had any rules to follow, he was making up, literally, everything as he went along. Thus, he's a shoddy workman.
In the end the Universe is a functionally beautiful construct, no question about it. Semantically it sucks, though. (I do hope that's the right word...)
Anyway.
I was brought up to beleive in god, my parents are not crazies or anything, church every sunday, except not in the summer (we where always gone). I did everything that a normal kid who is brought up with it does, communion, ect. But i simply have never beleived. I dont know why, its just the way its always been. I guess it just never clicked, it just never seemed believable to me. No one in my family knows, many of my freinds do (Some very religious, some non-believers), and my girlfriend does.
My mom suspects i have my "doubts" I havent gone to church since x-mas, i did go on friday. I work every weekend, so i "cant" go. I'm sure someday far from now i will tell my parents, but not anytime soon.
I dont try to tell people that i am right, its just the way i am, if you want to ague about it, i will. But that dosent mean i dont respect (MOST) people who beleive. I "try" not to sleep in church, but i swear the sermon is like sleeping gas. Other than that i dont interfere at all. When i say "MOST" i mean that there are thoes "Crazies" out there that i think are nutz. I would even go as far to say that i have never seen any priest (ect) that i would think is crazy, its just thoes "one" people. You know who i am talking about 🙂
Sorry for the long post.
Cliffnotes:
-Brought up Luthern.
-Never seemed to accept it.
-Still respect most.
I was brought up to beleive in god, my parents are not crazies or anything, church every sunday, except not in the summer (we where always gone). I did everything that a normal kid who is brought up with it does, communion, ect. But i simply have never beleived. I dont know why, its just the way its always been. I guess it just never clicked, it just never seemed believable to me. No one in my family knows, many of my freinds do (Some very religious, some non-believers), and my girlfriend does.
My mom suspects i have my "doubts" I havent gone to church since x-mas, i did go on friday. I work every weekend, so i "cant" go. I'm sure someday far from now i will tell my parents, but not anytime soon.
I dont try to tell people that i am right, its just the way i am, if you want to ague about it, i will. But that dosent mean i dont respect (MOST) people who beleive. I "try" not to sleep in church, but i swear the sermon is like sleeping gas. Other than that i dont interfere at all. When i say "MOST" i mean that there are thoes "Crazies" out there that i think are nutz. I would even go as far to say that i have never seen any priest (ect) that i would think is crazy, its just thoes "one" people. You know who i am talking about 🙂
Sorry for the long post.
Cliffnotes:
-Brought up Luthern.
-Never seemed to accept it.
-Still respect most.
I always hear the same reasons for believing in a god...He helped me out in a time of need. Everyone else believes in him, and how can so many people be wrong? And the most popular....because there are so many unanswerable questions. Its a shame that people never stop and think that not only do we not have the answer to some questions yet, but that some questions are unanswerable at all?
Its been almost a hundred years since darwin put us in our place as animals, and several hundreds since copernicus relegated us to the middle of nowhere rather than being god's special creatures in god's special place. Why cant people get this through their thick skulls?
Humans are not special, and neither is the earth. Seeing that the vast majority of organized religion assumes these things, theyre basically logically ruled out at that point.
We evolved just like every other organism on this planet. We are no higher or special than an ant, we just happen to have big brains. Where an ant doesnt need to ask stupid questions like "What is the meaning of life?", our cognitive abilities give us the opportunity to reflect on our own nature. Believing in a purpose in life is a by product of this. Before we understood evolution, we had no alternative explanation. When you understand, truely and utterly comprehend and *understand* that you are just an animal, and everything you know, believe, desire and feel is filtered and seen through the eyes of an animal and a few billion years of evolutionary pressure, everything seems that much simpler.
I wish I had the proper words to describe what I am trying to get across, because it really isnt too easy to put it into language. Its like something that just hits you, like a revelation. (ironic choice of words there)
At first it sucks to think of it that way, but once you truely start to see it, its quite liberating. Humans have to stop being so damn egotistical. It feels special to be human, but take into account modern science, and most specifically evolution, evolutionary psychology, and the computational theory of mind, youll realize that you arent special it all.
If there is a god, it obviously isnt watching your every move and judging you based on your moral performance. Thats what we call mind control of the population. Our evolutionary imperative not to kill each other obviously isnt going to be self evident, so it gets filtered into religious commandment.
Its been almost a hundred years since darwin put us in our place as animals, and several hundreds since copernicus relegated us to the middle of nowhere rather than being god's special creatures in god's special place. Why cant people get this through their thick skulls?
Humans are not special, and neither is the earth. Seeing that the vast majority of organized religion assumes these things, theyre basically logically ruled out at that point.
We evolved just like every other organism on this planet. We are no higher or special than an ant, we just happen to have big brains. Where an ant doesnt need to ask stupid questions like "What is the meaning of life?", our cognitive abilities give us the opportunity to reflect on our own nature. Believing in a purpose in life is a by product of this. Before we understood evolution, we had no alternative explanation. When you understand, truely and utterly comprehend and *understand* that you are just an animal, and everything you know, believe, desire and feel is filtered and seen through the eyes of an animal and a few billion years of evolutionary pressure, everything seems that much simpler.
I wish I had the proper words to describe what I am trying to get across, because it really isnt too easy to put it into language. Its like something that just hits you, like a revelation. (ironic choice of words there)
At first it sucks to think of it that way, but once you truely start to see it, its quite liberating. Humans have to stop being so damn egotistical. It feels special to be human, but take into account modern science, and most specifically evolution, evolutionary psychology, and the computational theory of mind, youll realize that you arent special it all.
If there is a god, it obviously isnt watching your every move and judging you based on your moral performance. Thats what we call mind control of the population. Our evolutionary imperative not to kill each other obviously isnt going to be self evident, so it gets filtered into religious commandment.
JustAnAverageGuy
Diamond Member
Same here. I was brought up religiously, but it just never clicked. We changed churches, and while the sermons are better (Read: electric guitars, drums, 4 man singing group) and the preacher is actually funny.
The difference being it kinda slipped on the don't tell your parents part.
Ended up having a 2 hour debate over the subject. It ended in a stalemate.
Though one thing that constantly bothered me throughout that debate. "I'd rather see your mom, you, and your sister killed before my eyes than deny Jesus Christ." That hit kinda hard, but once I got over the initial emotional shock of it, I thought (didn't say mind you 😉 ) that I was glad he wasn't making that decision. Personally, I'd rather keep what I have right now than to put my trust in something that may or probably doesn't exist.
Personally, I feel better after getting the fact off my chest rather than hiding it. I would however suggest that you collect your facts and\or possibly write them down before you start the debate. The debate didn't change my opinion on religion, nor did it change his.
Interesting, I don't believe in God yet I think I am more optimistic than most people who do. The way I see it, if there is no afterlife, then I should live life to the fullest, and carpe diem, and get the most out of life because that's all we have. I'm not saying I'm never depressed; actually, the past few weeks have been very very depressing for me, but I always bounce back. There is always something good to offset the bad and I can choose how to look at things.
For instance, the reason I'm so stressed out is because my car sucks and I'm looking to buy a newish one. I had my sights set on a beautiful 1995 Ford Ranger that I loved, and was going to buy. That turned to sh|t, though, because the dealer didn't offer financing and it's too old to accrue an auto loan for it. So I've been spending the past few weeks looking for a similar truck from a dealer that offers financing, only I can't find a single truck I like. That alone pissed me off a great deal, as not only am I unable to find a vehcicle that I like, but while I am looking I'm driving around in this POS with a gas leak and an horrible interior that I hate.
Then, last week, my wallet was stolen, with my debit card, my license, my college ID, basically everything I need. So needless to say, that made things considerably worse. And my mood became progressively darker with each passing day. rather than wallow in despair, self-pity and anger though, I'm doing pretty well. I've decided to settle for a small car, as although it's not exactly what I want and won't do everything I would like it to, it will get great gas mileage and be a damn sight better than the one I'm driving. I still have a wonderful girlfriend, a house to live in, I'm running again and competing again, and I'm getting a decent education. Plus, I know this will all be sorted out soon; I'll have a nice new car one way or another, I'll get all my stuff from my wallet back somehow, and sooner or later things will be even better than they were.
So, all in all, I don't need a belief in a higher power or a better life after this one to keep me going or keep me happy. I'm perfectly content just to enjoy life as it is, and take the good with the bad. Perhaps one could say that my faith is in the belief that things will always get better and that just being alive is reason enough to be happy.
Jesus of Nazareth walked on this earth 2,000 years ago and claimed to be God. While on earth He performed many miracles. He healed the blind, the mute, and the deaf. He calmed a storm on the Sea of Galilee, walked on water, and raised people from the dead. But did everybody believe in Him as a result? No, they did not. There were some who believed, but still there were many others who rejected Him and even wanted to kill Him.
If people who witnessed these events did not believe, how surprising is that people don't believe today?
If people who witnessed these events did not believe, how surprising is that people don't believe today?
db
Lifer
We are trying to talk about something that is so non-human, so out of our experience--if it exists--that I don't see how we can possibly understand it if it *does* exist.
It is much easier to apply human rules and human "understanding" and say a deity does not exist, simply b/c it doesn't make sense according to our human-ness.
But to be honest, IMO the best you can determine is that "we don't know".
And in that case, it does come down to faith. Believing something you can't prove.
To say there is NO diety is also faith, b/c you can not prove the non-existance. It is ignorant/naive/arrogant to determine that because you can't figure it out, it can't exist.
I'm not trying to put anybody down here. There are a lot of assumptions made on both sides when trying to fugure this thing out
It is much easier to apply human rules and human "understanding" and say a deity does not exist, simply b/c it doesn't make sense according to our human-ness.
But to be honest, IMO the best you can determine is that "we don't know".
And in that case, it does come down to faith. Believing something you can't prove.
To say there is NO diety is also faith, b/c you can not prove the non-existance. It is ignorant/naive/arrogant to determine that because you can't figure it out, it can't exist.
I'm not trying to put anybody down here. There are a lot of assumptions made on both sides when trying to fugure this thing out
0roo0roo
No Lifer
eh, this quote best sums it up for me. "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
...Stephen F Roberts
i can't ever believe in god how the major religions portray him. let alone the bevy of superstition and prejudice that comes along with the dogma.
i can't prove there isn't a god, i just don't know. i know that even if there is one, theres no evidence or requirement that he cares. so there is bleakness in god existing. just look at the world. a great deal of suffering has nothing to do with free will.
...Stephen F Roberts
i can't ever believe in god how the major religions portray him. let alone the bevy of superstition and prejudice that comes along with the dogma.
i can't prove there isn't a god, i just don't know. i know that even if there is one, theres no evidence or requirement that he cares. so there is bleakness in god existing. just look at the world. a great deal of suffering has nothing to do with free will.
upsciLLion
Diamond Member
According to Christianity and Judiasm that is humanity's fault. Not God's.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
i edited my post just before u made yours heh, the highlighted portion was the part i changed😛 the bleakness i spoke of has nothing to do with free will, but instead of things such as desease and natural disasters. anyways, if this is punishment, does the punishment fit the crime? or is it excessive, perhaps cruel and unusual, not to mention punishing sons for the sins of their fathers.
db
Lifer
"...I wish I could understand how you guys can let go of what I see as "reality"...."
You don't have to let go of reality in order to believe in God.
"...God? He's not real."
How do you know that?
"How are you going to abandon truth and reality...?"
You don't have to abandon truth and reality to believe in God.
"...I cannot find a way to even comprehend "letting go".
What would happen if you "let go"?
You don't have to let go of reality in order to believe in God.
"...God? He's not real."
How do you know that?
"How are you going to abandon truth and reality...?"
You don't have to abandon truth and reality to believe in God.
"...I cannot find a way to even comprehend "letting go".
What would happen if you "let go"?
Sorry. Wasn't meant to be nasty, just truthful.
There are lots of things that could have been done better to draw people to God. My favourite are still yet to come, in the book of Revelations. The sequence of events between the apocalypse and the second coming will do wonders for driving people to the antichrist. On the one hand you have him, who seems to be solving the situation and eliminating sources of suffering, and on the other you have God... who created the situation and the suffering. Really, it all just seems very poorly thought out to me.
anyone with a brain can see that religion is 90% crap. some religions say "this is the only way", some say "killing those who say 'this is the only way' is the only way", and even others say "every way is the right way", and obviously someone here is wrong as they are incompatible with each other. people kill others in the name of religion and people refrain from killing in the name of religion. personally, i see that men are hypocritical and selfish, and maybe some of these people are supporting the right cause but are just screwing up the job. so it comes down to a search for truth.
now u can believe that there is truth, or that there isnt. and im talking about absolute truth, not something thats just "true for me". if you dont, thats fine, and u should probably stop reading now. but for those that do, i would ask how you go about the search. do you use reason, the scientific method, prayer, etc? if you use reason, you have to assume that reason works correctly right, because maybe its still evolving or whatever? anyways, thats not the point. i just want to find out what you guys think are basic truths, that you've found based on whatever method you've used.
here are some conclusions i've come to, in no particular order. im not declaring these as truth, just as statements that i believe will not change throughout time. and i think its a good discussion topic, so let me know what you think.....
1. something came from nothing.
2. men are selfish
3. consciousness is unexplainable by science ( i dont believe it evolved or can evolve, either )
4. all men have a conscience
5. something happened around 1 AD that changed history
6. it is possible that we cannot know the truth
these are just a few, so continue with your own and debate mine. ill add some later, after others have added theirs. the last thing i wanna say is just that people seem to be so sure that science hasnt figured everything out yet, but are also so sure that no higher power exists, and i just think thats hypocritical. my 2 cents. anyways, good night!
note to grammar police: refrain from posting!
now u can believe that there is truth, or that there isnt. and im talking about absolute truth, not something thats just "true for me". if you dont, thats fine, and u should probably stop reading now. but for those that do, i would ask how you go about the search. do you use reason, the scientific method, prayer, etc? if you use reason, you have to assume that reason works correctly right, because maybe its still evolving or whatever? anyways, thats not the point. i just want to find out what you guys think are basic truths, that you've found based on whatever method you've used.
here are some conclusions i've come to, in no particular order. im not declaring these as truth, just as statements that i believe will not change throughout time. and i think its a good discussion topic, so let me know what you think.....
1. something came from nothing.
2. men are selfish
3. consciousness is unexplainable by science ( i dont believe it evolved or can evolve, either )
4. all men have a conscience
5. something happened around 1 AD that changed history
6. it is possible that we cannot know the truth
these are just a few, so continue with your own and debate mine. ill add some later, after others have added theirs. the last thing i wanna say is just that people seem to be so sure that science hasnt figured everything out yet, but are also so sure that no higher power exists, and i just think thats hypocritical. my 2 cents. anyways, good night!
note to grammar police: refrain from posting!
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