Why do web pages waste so much space?

[0roo0roo]

What planet are you from?

the one where i can google up the answer to your problem in chrome as going into settings and setting the default global zoom..

seriously how many times a day do you flash a drive bios, if something is that broken fine, set the dpi back for a moment and then back when you are done, this stuff is easy now, you don't even have to dig through menus anymore,,just type dpi in the box..

 

[Ichinisan]

the one where i can google up the answer to your problem in chrome as going into settings and setting the default global zoom..

seriously how many times a day do you flash a drive bios, if something is that broken fine, set the dpi back for a moment and then back when you are done, this stuff is easy now, you don't even have to dig through menus anymore,,just type dpi in the box..

I've tried it numerous times. I'm also adept and Ctrl+[+], Ctrl+[-], Ctrl+0, Ctrl+MouseWheel, ...

...also [WinKey]+[+], [WinKey]+[-], [WinKey]+[Esc].

Also, the zoom setting causes web pages to have some of the EXACT same issues that I described with Windows applications when DPI is increased.

Look at those tiny tabs!

...and, NO, you can't just change Windows DPI on-the-fly. It forces you to close ALL open applications and log-off.

...and it's not just BIOS flashing. It's installing applications, getting iPhone UDIDs from iTunes, and many, many, many other countless frustrations. I encounter DPI-related problems every day, no matter what DPI I set except the default DPI.

[edit]
Even this post is an example of Chrome's Zoom causing problems. The 1920x1200 screenshot I just made is 25% larger than the width of my monitor and the full image does not fit on my screen, even though it's a screenshot of my screen at its native resolution.

 

[0roo0roo]

tiny tabs, meh i don't really care since that happens regardless if you have a ton open. I use mouse gestures to do things like close tabs....so I'm not clicking around for an x, theres also ctrl w.

log on log off..big deal if you are going to flash something you should do it clean...

tab size and length probably is a extension thing, I remember firefox tabsmixplus allowed you to set minimum tab length and the rest.

these are all minor things compared to losing half your resolution for no good reason.

 

[CZroe]

tiny tabs, meh i don't really care since that happens regardless if you have a ton open. I use mouse gestures to do things like close tabs....so I'm not clicking around for an x, theres also ctrl w.

log on log off..big deal if you are going to flash something you should do it clean...

tab size and length probably is a extension thing, I remember firefox tabsmixplus allowed you to set minimum tab length and the rest.

these are all minor things compared to losing half your resolution for no good reason.

His example was a BIOS flasher but his point was that it could be anything, so why are you so hung up on that? Like I said, you WILL encounter the needless frustration in day-to-day use. I said that specifically because a BIOS flashing app is only one of THOUSANDS with these issues. You should be bitching at Microsoft to fix their shit if you want to argue the merits of higher resolution screens.

 

[Ichinisan]

tiny tabs, meh i don't really care since that happens regardless if you have a ton open. I use mouse gestures to do things like close tabs....so I'm not clicking around for an x, theres also ctrl w.

...and Ctrl+F4 and middle-click. The real problem is grabbing the title bar for aero-snap functionality.

log on log off..big deal if you are going to flash something you should do it clean...

It's not just flashing something. That's just one example. I would often encounter numerous DPI-related problems in a day.

tab size and length probably is a extension thing, I remember firefox tabsmixplus allowed you to set minimum tab length and the rest.

Unfortunately, Chrome does not allow extensions to modify the appearance of tabs. I'm part of the Chromium discussion group and get daily email updates. The removal of the hidden side-tabs feature is a BIG DEAL because extensions can't work-around it.

these are all minor things compared to losing half your resolution for no good reason.

Take it from the voice of experience. I have tried various DPI settings for months at a time and I'm always driven-back to standard 96 DPI. *Some* of the problems are "minor," and some are infuriating. However, the annoyance is cumulative and it happens every day. I always reach a breaking point and end up switching back. Even if I didn't notice any problems, it bothers me to think that I *could* miss some UI element that I never see and never know that something is wrong.

 

[0roo0roo]

His example was a BIOS flasher but his point was that it could be anything, so why are you so hung up on that? Like I said, you WILL encounter the needless frustration in day-to-day use. I said that specifically because a BIOS flashing app is only one of THOUSANDS with these issues. You should be bitching at Microsoft to fix their shit if you want to argue the merits of higher resolution screens.

endless frustration? i've had pc's that used high dpi since xp(high resolution laptops), and xp did have a broken high dpi implementation, you are seriously exaggerating if you think it cripples use from day to day, unless you spend your days flashing your drives over and over it really is not a problem.

 

[Jeff7]

theres everything wrong with seeing pixels

win vista/7/osx scale fine, if you need to you can even set minimum font size in browsers. the only reason to see pixels is if you are cheap or don't have the money for a better monitor

There are the occasional screwy bugs when using the scaling option.
At work and home, I've got the scaling set to Medium/125%.

Excel 2007: Every time you open the Custom Sort dialog box, it's a little bit larger, and it continues this up until it fills the entire viewable area, even if that includes multiple monitors. The forum posts on the subject go back years, even at Microsoft's site. There still appears to be no fix for it.

There's something called usability.

Another thing that's showing up all too frequently is tiny-window image viewers on websites.
"Got a 23" or 27" monitor? Good for you. You're going to have a usable area that's the size of a cellphone screen." Newegg does this too. So if you want to get a good close-up view of something larger than that cellphone screen, it's going to take a lot of "click, drag, wait for download" to do it.

 

[alkemyst]

excel 2007?

 

[Ichinisan]

endless frustration? i've had pc's that used high dpi since xp(high resolution laptops), and xp did have a broken high dpi implementation, you are seriously exaggerating if you think it cripples use from day to day, unless you spend your days flashing your drives over and over it really is not a problem.

I'm taking the DPI challenge.

Going to bump it up a reasonable level.

The first problem I notice, I'll let you know.

 

[Ichinisan]

...didn't take long. I remembered only the UDID being cut-off, so I went back to check and see if 125% was enough to trigger the problem.

Without looking closely, I first thought iTunes handled high DPI really well. Then I looked closer.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Why would you want to change the DPI setting anyway? I will agree it causes lot of issues. I never really saw a need to change it. It's not like we're at a point where the pixel density is so small that a 10 point font is too small to read.

 

[Ichinisan]

Why would you want to change the DPI setting anyway? I will agree it causes lot of issues. I never really saw a need to change it. It's not like we're at a point where the pixel density is so small that a 10 point font is too small to read.

On my 30" 2560x1600 display, the pixels are too dense for standard 96 DPI.

Even though I have a 27.5" 1920x1200 display, I'd still be more comfortable with a 30" 1920x1200 IPS panel...but no such display exists. My eyes suck. I'm not the only one with less-than-perfect eyes.

 

[Jeff7]

Why would you want to change the DPI setting anyway? I will agree it causes lot of issues. I never really saw a need to change it. It's not like we're at a point where the pixel density is so small that a 10 point font is too small to read.

Lousy eyes here.

Over the years of CRTs:
15" monitor: 640x480 resolution
17" monitor: 800x600
21" monitor: 1024x768

My first LCD took awhile to get used to, not only because of the poor color gamut and sluggish pixel and response, but also the fact that LCDs can't do non-native resolutions and still be usable. (I went from a Trinitron tube CRT to a twisted-nematic LCD.) So tiny text was about all I could use, stuck at 1680x1050px.

My eyes are also lousy. At some point, my body seems to have decided that anything farther than about 14" from my face just doesn't matter, so there's no sense in seeing any of it. :\ My glasses are strong enough to warp spacetime, or at least the severe geometric distortions that occur around the perimeter of them makes it feel that way.

 

[Jodell88]

Another thing that's showing up all too frequently is tiny-window image viewers on websites.
23" or 27" monitor? Good for you. You're going to have a usable area that's the size of a cellphone screen. Newegg does this too. So if you want to get a good close-up view of something larger than that cellphone screen, it's going to take a lot of "click, drag, wait for download" to do it.

15.6'' laptop with a resolution of 1920x1080.

The usability issue is a major factor. Let's look at this very forum for example.

Fullscreen:

Windowed

Which one would do you rather read from?

 

[Ichinisan]

 

[Ichinisan]

 

[Ichinisan]

I never know what option I'm not seeing. It's that kind of nagging issue that keeps driving me back to default 96 DPI, even though I need high DPI as much as anyone!

I'm also still encountering LOTS of problems over Remote Desktop that only occur when you're not using standard 96 DPI. I'm at "Larger - 150%" now. The Mouse pointer (Windows Aero Default) is extremely glitchy. Certain pointer icons won't show: Horizontal and vertical sizing handles, web link finger pointer, move/drag, etc. Diagonal sizing handles work. If I move my mouse to the side of a window, it still shows the cursor pointer. If I start at the corner and the diagonal sizing handle appears, then move down to the side...it continues to show the diagonal size handle and doesn't change to the horizontal one. RDC already conditions me to wait for the mouse pointer to change to know if my mouse is really in the correct place to grab or resize something. Now, I keep finding myself waiting forever.

I also have to deliberately click with an offset to place insertion point where I really want it. If you want to place the insertion point before the period at the end of a sentence, forget about it. Not happening. Instead, you have to place it somewhere else and then move the insertion point with arrow keys.

A web page I was on earlier was behaving as if my mouse was half-a-screen higher than it really was and I couldn't click what I wanted. Strange, because it worked correctly after I reloaded the page. It was probably related to DPI, but I just can't tell.

Since the option first appeared in WinXP, high DPI has always been broken and creates serious usability issues.

 

[0roo0roo]

Honestly I don't know why you have so many problems. I regularly remote desktop my htpc for maintenance and the rest and its 150dpi plus and it has never given me a blank context menu. and again, bios updates...are not something anyone does often enough to care about.

 

[Ichinisan]

Honestly I don't know why you have so many problems. I regularly remote desktop my htpc for maintenance and the rest and its 150dpi plus and it has never given me a blank context menu. and again, bios updates...are not something anyone does often enough to care about.

Why are you so hung-up on BIOS updates? I'm talking about every day usage problems as I encounter them. Today, I only installed Live Update because I didn't remember the motherboard model in that system and I was trying to figure out (from work) if that system had a micro ATX board or regular ATX so I could determine whether-or-not I would need to purchase a micro ATX board to re-purpose some other hardware. I didn't actually want to update my BIOS...I just happened to notice there was an update available.

However "rare" you think these problems are, I'm posting real-world problems as I encounter them. It didn't take long, did it? I've skipped mentioning many things because I didn't have the time to make a screenshot or you couldn't make a normal screenshot. Example: Alt+Tab Task Switcher through RDC

I had previously mentioned optical drive firmware updater. Granted, that's something you rarely have to do...but that case was VERY disruptive. I opened it to check which firmware I had (it was already up-to-date) and a system-modal dialog appeared. There was no way to back out. Alt+F4 didn't work. Esc didn't work. I probably should have tried the task manager, but pushed spacebar instead (believing an invisible "Cancel" button was hidden outside the visible area with keyboard focus). It updated the drive and restarted my system without allowing me to close anything.

 

[Ichinisan]

Honestly I don't know why you have so many problems. I regularly remote desktop my htpc for maintenance and the rest and its 150dpi plus and it has never given me a blank context menu. and again, bios updates...are not something anyone does often enough to care about.

Well, that's the first time I've noticed the blank context menu. Probably because the WinXP RDC client is set to disable themes to make the screen update more quickly and require less bandwidth. The same glitch context menu appears when I right-click a titlebar for most 64-bit applications and explorer windows (folders).

Try this: Change DPI to 200% (will look amazing...but you won't be able to use it this way for long). Remote-in from WinXP RDC client. Your mouse is probably visible...at first.

Open Internet Explorer. Go to Google. Search for something. Is your mouse pointer still visible?

 

[0roo0roo]

Why are you so hung-up on BIOS updates? I'm talking about every day usage problems as I encounter them. Today, I only installed Live Update because I didn't remember the motherboard model in that system and I was trying to figure out (from work) if that system had a micro ATX board or regular ATX so I could determine whether-or-not I would need to purchase a micro ATX board to re-purpose some other hardware. I didn't actually want to update my BIOS...I just happened to notice there was an update available.

However "rare" you think these problems are, I'm posting real-world problems as I encounter them. It didn't take long, did it? I've skipped mentioning many things because I didn't have the time to make a screenshot or you couldn't make a normal screenshot. Example: Alt+Tab Task Switcher through RDC

I had previously mentioned optical drive firmware updater. Granted, that's something you rarely have to do...but that case was VERY disruptive. I opened it to check which firmware I had (it was already up-to-date) and a system-modal dialog appeared. There was no way to back out. Alt+F4 didn't work. Esc didn't work. I probably should have tried the task manager, but pushed spacebar instead (believing an invisible "Cancel" button was hidden outside the visible area with keyboard focus). It updated the drive and restarted my system without allowing me to close anything.

a better question is why are you so hung up on bios updates....

 

[0roo0roo]

Well, that's the first time I've noticed the blank context menu. Probably because the WinXP RDC client is set to disable themes to make the screen update more quickly and require less bandwidth. The same glitch context menu appears when I right-click a titlebar for most 64-bit applications and explorer windows (folders).

Try this: Change DPI to 200% (will look amazing...but you won't be able to use it this way for long). Remote-in from WinXP RDC client. Your mouse is probably visible...at first.

Open Internet Explorer. Go to Google. Search for something. Is your mouse pointer still visible?

remoting in from an xp client misses the point when the claim is that windows vista/7 are the ones with working dpi function.

 

[CZroe]

remoting in from an xp client misses the point when the claim is that windows vista/7 are the ones with working dpi function.

Nope. He's detail what things it broke in day-to-day use and if it broke its interaction with an XP computer he uses at work (like most, I might add), the he encountered a day-to-day usability issue that could affect many.

a better question is why are you so hung up on bios updates....

FAIL.

I think he explained it in PAINFUL detail. Besides, firmware != BIOS and the problem was with the update checker app, so it has nothing to do with flashing EEPROMs and FlashROMs and everything to do with day-today apps having issues with non-default DPI settings.

 

[0roo0roo]

flashing firmwares is not something you do often, let alone daily, or even monthly if you are doing anything right.

day to day, xp was never part of the discussion, and frankly at this point xp is effectively obsolete.

 

[CZroe]

flashing firmwares is not something you do often, let alone daily, or even monthly if you are doing anything right.

day to day, xp was never part of the discussion, and frankly at this point xp is effectively obsolete.

FAIL and FAIL. Reading comprehension would do you a world of good. He explained that he wasn't flashing a BIOS but, rather, trying to remotely ID his motherboard with a pre-installed utility that should know.

Like I said, he isn't the only person forced to use XP at work. That's statistically relevant.

Triple fail for failing to realize that the point is not about what "most people" and, instead, is about what you encounter daily. They will have their own daily encounters. A portion of what "most" users do is something that "most" other users don't do, so STFU. You'd benefit immensely from a statistics class is you honestly thought your reasoning was at all relevant.