Why do we need tesselation for curved surfaces?

[Grooveriding]

How did the thread go from the OP to a crybaby pee pants thread about tessellation and nvidia vs AMD ? Thought we were done with that one with current performance showing AMD mildly ahead in the 'tessellation games'; Crysis 2, Batman AC etc. We already did the Cypress vs. Fermi for Crysis 2 invisible oceans and tessellated flat walls to death.

Crazy stuff.

 

[Arkadrel]

Just turn it off if the performance hit is too great for your gpu. The exact same advice given for any eye candy feature. When AMD performs better in tesselation, you'll feel differently im sure. Then you could crank it up because, well, you just can.

You realise that even a Nvidia Geforce 680, goes from 96+ fps down to like 40 fps?
Its not just AMD cards, though in AMD's case its even more extreme, from like 95+ fps to 25fps.

Its just insane the demand the tessellation implimentation has,
compaired to the image quality gained from it.

Im not sure how much of it is "deliberate" by it being a nvidia TWIMTBP title,
and Nvidia helping codeing the game. However its a horrible piece of work done on it.

Nvidia love to not showcase their own tech, but do it in such a fashion it hurts their competitor the most it possibly can.
(they dont really care about the product the game developers put out. Im assumeing some that buy the game use AMD hardware)

 

[blackened23]

You realise that even a Nvidia Geforce 680, goes from 96+ fps down to like 40 fps?
Its not just AMD cards, though in AMD's case its even more extreme, from like 95+ fps to 25fps.

Its just insane the demand the tessellation implimentation has,
compaired to the image quality gained from it.

Im not sure how much of it is "deliberate" by it being a nvidia TWIMTBP title,
and Nvidia helping codeing the game. However its a horrible piece of work done on it.

Nvidia love to not showcase their own tech, but do it in such a fashion it hurts their competitor the most it possibly can.
(they dont really care about the product the game developers put out. Im assumeing some that buy the game use AMD hardware)

Oddly enough, most games utilizing tessellation are faster or the same speed on AMD hardware, such as metro 2033 (faster, a lot), DE:HR (about the same, a lot faster oc vs oc) crysis 2, batman: AC (about the same, faster when oc'ed 7970 vs oc'ed 680) among others. 7970 is also faster in Heaven (which utilizes extreme tess) while the 680 is faster in 3dmark11. That is the 925mhz 7970 as well, 7970 has no issues with tessellation as far as I can tell, it performs tessellation well across the board, sometimes better than the 680 in some titles. Perhaps one TWIMTBP with nvidia programmers "assisting" funcom in development plays better on nvidia hardware, holy hell i'm shocked - not since HAWX 2 have I been this surprised.

 

[Keysplayr]

You realise that even a Nvidia Geforce 680, goes from 96+ fps down to like 40 fps?
Its not just AMD cards, though in AMD's case its even more extreme, from like 95+ fps to 25fps.

Its just insane the demand the tessellation implimentation has,
compaired to the image quality gained from it.

Im not sure how much of it is "deliberate" by it being a nvidia TWIMTBP title,
and Nvidia helping codeing the game. However its a horrible piece of work done on it.

Nvidia love to not showcase their own tech, but do it in such a fashion it hurts their competitor the most it possibly can.
(they dont really care about the product the game developers put out. Im assumeing some that buy the game use AMD hardware)

It's just insane the demand the 8xSSAA implementation has compared to the image quality gained from it.

This is why we have the ability to use different levels of certain features in "most" games. Why are you against turning these things off? OR turning them down? Seems to me like complaining about it is rather pointless when it can be turned down or shut off. Amiright?
Turn PhysX down or off.
Turn AA down or off.
Turn Tesselation down or off.
Turn DoF down or off.
Keep going.
Run in DX9 mode sometimes even available. I don't see the problem really except as an excuse to complain. Really nothing more than that.

 

[djsb]

I have heard it mentioned once or twice in this thread: what are people talking about when they refer to "pretessellated" assets? I originally thought it meant a very high detail model in which the tessellation was baked in (like a 0th level of detail, which would defeat the point of tess hardware in the first place), but now I'm gathering that it just refers to adding extra edge loops in order to make the polygons as regular shaped as possible to aid in tessellation. (Which I think, depending on the lighting model, could be the best practices anyway.)

 

[Nintendesert]

Please show me a cobblestone road that looks like a thousand fuzzy gray balloons, please.

But that's missing the point. Why the hell use tessellation on mostly flat surfaces when you could use the tech on character and enemy models or anything else that could use the additional polygons. Why walls? Unless you're a fuzzy masonry affectionado, the 50-75% performance loss is insane.

SirPauly can go on about how idealism shouldn't get in the way of good, but this is plain bad.

http://it.fotolia.com/id/21592545

 

[sontin]

You realise that even a Nvidia Geforce 680, goes from 96+ fps down to like 40 fps?
Its not just AMD cards, though in AMD's case its even more extreme, from like 95+ fps to 25fps.

Its just insane the demand the tessellation implimentation has,
compaired to the image quality gained from it.

Im not sure how much of it is "deliberate" by it being a nvidia TWIMTBP title,
and Nvidia helping codeing the game. However its a horrible piece of work done on it.

Nvidia love to not showcase their own tech, but do it in such a fashion it hurts their competitor the most it possibly can.
(they dont really care about the product the game developers put out. Im assumeing some that buy the game use AMD hardware)

It's quite ironic to see that you didn't complain about Sleeping Dogs and Dirt:Showdown. In both games there is a feature that tanks the frames and is only there to hurt nVidia. D:

 

[Red Hawk]

It's quite ironic to see that you didn't complain about Sleeping Dogs and Dirt:Showdown. In both games there is a feature that tanks the frames and is only there to hurt nVidia. D:

It's there to leverage AMD's real advantage in compute ability. Besides, it's not like Crysis 2 where tessellation goes unseen half the time or The Secret World where tessellation has way too much of a performance hit for its IQ boost. Dirt Showdown has its constantly effective global illumination and HDAO effects, while Sleeping Dogs has an SSAA method which annihilates jaggies by rendering the framebuffer several times larger than the output resolution and then downscaling it. It also helps that, historically, AMD has had better performance at higher resolutions than Nvidia.

 

[sontin]

It's there to leverage AMD's real advantage in compute ability. Besides, it's not like Crysis 2 where tessellation goes unseen half the time or The Secret World where tessellation has way too much of a performance hit for its IQ boost.

Sure it is. Or let me call it "viral marketing" because:
Tessellation in Crysis 2 and Secret World is "there to leverage [nVidia] real advantage in [geometry] ability".

Dirt Showdown has its constantly effective global illumination and HDAO effects,

Tessellation is improving light and shadow effects, too. So i guess it's exactly the same...

while Sleeping Dogs has an SSAA method which annihilates jaggies by rendering the framebuffer several times larger than the output resolution and then downscaling it. It also helps that, historically, AMD has had better performance at higher resolutions than Nvidia.

And because it's only OGSSAA it doesn't eliminate all aliasing but it will always cost 75% of the performance. It's obvious why Downsampling is in Sleeping Dogs - marketing trick. The question is: Why has Arkadrel no problem with it?

 

[Red Hawk]

Sure it is. Or let me call it "viral marketing" because:
Tessellation in Crysis 2 and Secret World is "there to leverage [nVidia] real advantage in [geometry] ability".

Which would be fine if it wasn't invisible half the time (Crysis 2) or didn't make the environments look worse and less realistic (Secret World).

Tessellation is improving light and shadow effects, too. So i guess it's exactly the same...

Uh, pretty sure tessellation has little to nothing to do with light and shadow effects.

And because it's only OGSSAA it doesn't eliminate all aliasing but it will always cost 75% of the performance. It's obvious why Downsampling is in Sleeping Dogs - marketing trick. The question is: Why has Arkadrel no problem with it?

Probably because the supersampling is always effective and doesn't make the image look worse.

 

[blackened23]

It's there to leverage AMD's real advantage in compute ability. Besides, it's not like Crysis 2 where tessellation goes unseen half the time or The Secret World where tessellation has way too much of a performance hit for its IQ boost. Dirt Showdown has its constantly effective global illumination and HDAO effects, while Sleeping Dogs has an SSAA method which annihilates jaggies by rendering the framebuffer several times larger than the output resolution and then downscaling it. It also helps that, historically, AMD has had better performance at higher resolutions than Nvidia.

I don't think i'm on the same page as some of you on this argument, are you arguing that tessellation shouldn't be in games? Why? I really don't agree with that at all, besides which - the 7900 series really aren't slouches in terms of tess performance. I really don't understand why someone would advocate just not including it at all, forgive me if i'm misunderstanding you.

 

[Red Hawk]

I don't think i'm on the same page as some of you on this argument, are you arguing that tessellation shouldn't be in games? Why? I really don't agree with that at all, besides which - the 7900 series really aren't slouches in terms of tess performance. I really don't understand why someone would advocate just not including it at all, forgive me if i'm misunderstanding you.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that if it is used, it should be visible and add to visual quality. We've seen that this doesn't always happen (Crysis 2 and The Secret World).

 

[BFG10K]

Tessellation is fine, as long as it isn’t abused like in Crysis 2. Sorry, but there’s no way to rationally justify using millions polygons on flat concrete blocks. It only takes two polygons to accurately render a flat block.

Good implementations include the AvP 3 Aliens, where it makes sense for them to be curved. Also close-up things like guns and figures (e.g. Stalker 3).

Oh, and titties of course. :awe:

 

[WMD]

You realise that even a Nvidia Geforce 680, goes from 96+ fps down to like 40 fps?
Its not just AMD cards, though in AMD's case its even more extreme, from like 95+ fps to 25fps.

Its just insane the demand the tessellation implimentation has,
compaired to the image quality gained from it.

Im not sure how much of it is "deliberate" by it being a nvidia TWIMTBP title,
and Nvidia helping codeing the game. However its a horrible piece of work done on it.

Nvidia love to not showcase their own tech, but do it in such a fashion it hurts their competitor the most it possibly can.
(they dont really care about the product the game developers put out. Im assumeing some that buy the game use AMD hardware)

It's possible to apply tessellation in way where realism is improved dramatically without much performance penalty. Just look at BF3. This post demonstrates the fact: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32590273&postcount=53

That's about the worst graphic card for tessellation performance yet we see a huge image quality increase with almost negligible performance cost.

 

[sontin]

Tessellation is fine, as long as it isn’t abused like in Crysis 2. Sorry, but there’s no way to rationally justify using millions polygons on flat concrete blocks. It only takes two polygons to accurately render a flat block.

It makes less sense to repeat this stuff. But then i guess you and the other people never played Crysis 2 with Tessellation. :\

Good implementations include the AvP 3 Aliens, where it makes sense for them to be curved. Also close-up things like guns and figures (e.g. Stalker 3).

Oh, and titties of course. :awe:

AvP3? It is not this game in which the environment looks like a console game?

Which would be fine if it wasn't invisible half the time (Crysis 2) or didn't make the environments look worse and less realistic (Secret World).

If you really want to talk about Crysis 2 then play the game. Lying is not helping you.

Uh, pretty sure tessellation has little to nothing to do with light and shadow effects.

Yeah, there is the problem: You don't know how Tessellation is improving the image quality:

Probably because the supersampling is always effective and doesn't make the image look worse.

Right instead of Tessellation which cost only performance when it's apllied to objects and objects are not behind others SSAA will always cost 75%+ of the performance. That makes OGSSAA one of the worst option to improve the IQ.

 

[SirPauly]

That is a nice illustration on tessellation there Sontin, thanks!

 

[SirPauly]

Good implementations include the AvP 3 Aliens, where it makes sense for them to be curved. Also close-up things like guns and figures

I don't disagree, but also desire to see more depth, shape-and-form, on the ground and the environment, too.

 

[Red Hawk]

If you really want to talk about Crysis 2 then play the game. Lying is not helping you.

Lying? What am I lying about? I readily admit that Crysis 2 has worthwhile tessellation in some spots. However, in others, when the tessellation frames are revealed they do little to nothing to improve object detail. That is not acceptable.

Yeah, there is the problem: You don't know how Tessellation is improving the image quality:

Um...ok? I don't see any change to lighting and shadow effects there.

Right instead of Tessellation which cost only performance when it's apllied to objects and objects are not behind others SSAA will always cost 75%+ of the performance. That makes OGSSAA one of the worst option to improve the IQ.

Whether or not SSAA is worth it is up to you. The point is that it is always apparent. Which the tessellation effects in Crysis 2 or not. It doesn't make the image look worse,which Secret World's tessellation does. If an effect causes a performance hit, at the very least one could hope it's a visible and beneficial effect. SSAA in Sleeping Dogs is always visible and beneficial. Tessellation in Crysis 2 is not always visible and not always beneficial in Secret World.

 

[lopri]

As long as there is enough performance, I am all for more polys.

 

[BFG10K]

It makes less sense to repeat this stuff. But then i guess you and the other people never played Crysis 2 with Tessellation.

I promptly turned if off after trying it. The performance hit wasn’t worth it as aliasing is the game’s biggest problem, and we need all the resources we can to fight it.

AvP3? It is not this game in which the environment looks like a console game?

The Aliens are perfect candidates to be tessellated given they have a large amount of curved surfaces, and you often see them up close during combat too. Also the implementation barely losses any performance, even when there’s heaps of them on the screen. I lost about 2FPS on average the last time I tested it.

 

[sontin]

I promptly turned if off after trying it. The performance hit wasn’t worth it as aliasing is the game’s biggest problem, and we need all the resources we can to fight it.

There is no MSAA/SGSSAA option in this game. And you can turn other options off for performance.

The Aliens are perfect candidates to be tessellated given they have a large amount of curved surfaces, and you often see them up close during combat too. Also the implementation barely losses any performance, even when there’s heaps of them on the screen. I lost about 2FPS on average the last time I tested it.

What a shame that Aliens not the only objects in Avp3:

 

[BFG10K]

There is no MSAA/SGSSAA option in this game.

That’s not really relevant to getting AA into the game.

And you can turn other options off for performance.

Or I could turn off tessellation and avoid rendering flat concrete blocks with 100 million polygons, and amazingly complex oceans that I’ll never see.

What a shame that Aliens not the only objects in Avp3:

Everything in Crysis 2 gets tessellated, does it?

 

[sontin]

That’s not really relevant to getting AA into the game.

And how will you fight Aliasing in Crysis 2? Playing with DX9 and AA-bits? :hmm:

Or I could turn off tessellation and avoid rendering flat concrete blocks with 100 million polygons, and amazingly complex oceans that I’ll never see.

Yes. But then why would i do this? If you don't care about better quality there is no reason at all to play in DX11.

Everything in Crysis 2 gets tessellated, does it?

No and this is sad. But i think over 75% of all objects gets tessellated and looks better.

 

[Pottuvoi]

Um...ok? I don't see any change to lighting and shadow effects there.

I would count the roof casting shadows to itself using standard shadow map as a change to a lighting and shadow..

 

[Keysplayr]

Man it would be nice if I could view the pics without ads splashing across the whole pic.