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Why do unions work?
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Antiquated labor statutes that were written in a very different era creating a statutory right to do so (vs. non-existent constitutional or fundamental right to form a union). These statutes were originally weighted heavily in favor of labor unions but were partially revised some years later to favor unions somewhat less. They need further revision, they are still heavily weighted towards unions, as are labor relations boards that are typically stacked with union supporters.
One example of how antiquated labor statutes are, is that a paid, professional, union "salt" can apply for a job at your company, sit down at the interview and tell you he is a paid, professional, union salt whose only motive for seeking the position is to unionize your company, and you can not refuse to hire him for the position in which he freely admits having absolutely no interest other than to gain access to your company for the sole purpose of organizing a union. If you refuse to hire a union salt, the union will then file a barrage of unfair labor practice complaints against your company for discrimination and will win. If he does not disclose he is a paid union salt until after you have hired him, you can't fire him for being a union salt.
For real-world insight into what exactly union salts are paid to do, see:
Salt Without Savor
Union Salting
This outrageous protection of paid union operatives literally sent to commit extortion, obstruction, and sabotage wouldn't be all that outrageous if so many unions weren't essentially disruptive criminal organizations whose motives are driven purely by an ideology of hatred. As with most leftists, unions aren't motivated as much by some altruistic love for 'the laborer' as hatred of 'the wealthy'.
and the lazy French with their evil communist unions beat the US in productivity
However, American employees also work longer hours, and three European countries -- Norway, France and Belgium -- beat the Americans in productivity per hour
In terms of output per hour we have three European countries doing better than the U.S. ... and they have done so ever since the mid-'80s."
Norwegians lead the world with an output of $38 per hour worked last year. French workers were in second place, averaging $35 an hour, the report said. Belgians were third at $34, followed by Americans at $32.
taken from this thread
LOL - 3 evil socialist countries with strong unions beat the US in productivity 😀
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
To get an idea where these laws came from:
Companies at one time actually hired people with guns to force people to go to work. More than once, a company has opened fire on it's employees that had gone on strike. There was alot of lobbying trying to make unions illegal.
I'm not saying all unions are good, or that the laws are always fair. But consider that in the tech industry people are finding themselves training thier replacements while being paid thier normal rate and have no recourse. For them it's a "quit now or be fired later" situation. Packard Bell/NEC and HP plants near my work were notorious for hiring employees for the max 90 that they could get away with calling them temps, firing everyone on day 89, and then rehiring them as temps before they left the building. The end result was that after working 5 years doing the same job every day for the same company you had no benefits and were still only a temp. Is that fair? I wouldn't say so. Some companies will rip thier employees off at any chance they get.
Companies at one time actually hired people with guns to force people to go to work. More than once, a company has opened fire on it's employees that had gone on strike. There was alot of lobbying trying to make unions illegal.
I'm not saying all unions are good, or that the laws are always fair. But consider that in the tech industry people are finding themselves training thier replacements while being paid thier normal rate and have no recourse. For them it's a "quit now or be fired later" situation. Packard Bell/NEC and HP plants near my work were notorious for hiring employees for the max 90 that they could get away with calling them temps, firing everyone on day 89, and then rehiring them as temps before they left the building. The end result was that after working 5 years doing the same job every day for the same company you had no benefits and were still only a temp. Is that fair? I wouldn't say so. Some companies will rip thier employees off at any chance they get.
308nato
Platinum Member
Question.....how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if he had union representation ?
Answer.......very little.
"We petitioned the union steward for management to get those padded seats for the shitter.....my ass goes to sleep before I finish the newspaper with the hard ones...." actual quote from my UAW neighbor up the road.
Answer.......very little.
"We petitioned the union steward for management to get those padded seats for the shitter.....my ass goes to sleep before I finish the newspaper with the hard ones...." actual quote from my UAW neighbor up the road.
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
An example of a union that works for everyone:
There is a union of telephone company employees. They get three year contracts. Every three years they negotiate a contract for the pay schedule and benefits. It comes out fair, noone really get an upper hand and noone gets the shaft. The advantage to the company of this type of bargaining is that they only have to deal with one set of people once every three years.
Examples of bad unions:
An instructor that I had when I was in school had a job where he paid union dues, and the union did absolutely nothing.
Along the lines of the quote above, when unions start asking for stupid stuff.
There is a union of telephone company employees. They get three year contracts. Every three years they negotiate a contract for the pay schedule and benefits. It comes out fair, noone really get an upper hand and noone gets the shaft. The advantage to the company of this type of bargaining is that they only have to deal with one set of people once every three years.
Examples of bad unions:
An instructor that I had when I was in school had a job where he paid union dues, and the union did absolutely nothing.
Along the lines of the quote above, when unions start asking for stupid stuff.
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
Really?! Can you afford an NSX?
What do you mean Europe doesn't have 'so many'? That kinda understates it.
Relative to the unprecedented immigration both legal and illegal the United States has had to deal with over the last 120~150 years, no other country on the planet remotely comes close. Not even in the ballpark.
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
Nitemare: Not recently. Last I checked, they're still doing it the same way. (they were two-three years ago)
"For them it's a "quit now or be fired later" situation. Packard Bell/NEC and HP plants near my work were notorious for hiring employees for the max 90 that they could get away with calling them temps, firing everyone on day 89, and then rehiring them as temps before they left the building. The end result was that after working 5 years doing the same job every day for the same company you had no benefits and were still only a temp. Is that fair?"
I don't see anyone forcing them to work there. Don't like it? Leave! I'll never understand this mindset that believes we're entitled to a job.
I don't see anyone forcing them to work there. Don't like it? Leave! I'll never understand this mindset that believes we're entitled to a job.
think again, illegal aliens are a big problem in Europe
Still, economic migrants - lured by European riches - keep pouring in illegally (about half a million every year -to believe The Centre for Migration Policy Development in Vienna). Europe is the target of twice as many illegal migrants as the USA. Many of them (known as "labour tourists") shuttle across borders seasonally, or commute between home and work - sometimes daily. Hence the EU's apprehension at allowing free movement of labour from the candidate countries and the "transition periods" (really moratoria) it wishes to impose on them following their long postponed accession.
link
I nearly forgot about this thread....late post.
First, Europe's immigration trends are very recent, unlike the United States whose immigration trends have fluctuated between explosive and a constant trickle for well over 100 years. Europe was the place from which everyone was fleeing well into the 20th century. Compare Europe's often stagnant or even negative population growth over the last 100 years with the population growth of the United States. No contest. Many EU countries wouldn't have any population growth if it weren't for immigration.
Second, the statement 'Europe is the target of twice as many illegal migrants as the USA' may be true, but misleading. This has less to do with raw numbers and more to do with Europe's immigration laws being less permissive than the USA. For example, if it were presumed true for the sake of argument that one country has drunk driving rates that are twice that of another country, that may have less to do with the number of people who drive after consuming alcohol and more to do with the BAC limits of one country being far more restrictive than the other (e.g. BAC limits of .05% versus .1%), ensaring far more drivers whom would not be breaking any law in the other country.
Europe is also big on assimilation. Francais is the official language of France and they make no apologies for expecting immigrants to adopt the cultural norms of a French-speaking society.
Europe's immigration 'problem' is much different than the United States and that has a lot to do with our immigration policies being borderline negligent. There aren't many things about Europe I would care to see the US emulate, but Europe has it right on its strict regulation and enforcement of immigration policies. If a foreigner is allowed to stay in Europe on terms, such as an education VISA, failure to comply with those terms results in prompt deportation. In the US, failure to comply with the terms is the norm, because the system doesn't have the resources to ensure or verify compliance (by design). Fraudulent entry by falsifying information is rampant because nobody actually verifies the information.
Further, Europe only permits 'desirable' immigrants such as educated and skilled foreigners who are far more likely to invest in European countries and contribute to rather than take from social welfare and other public resources. IOW, Europe carefully permits immigration to the extent that immigration will benefit Europe and no more. Many of Europe's frustrated immigrants, those very same one's who are counted among Europe's "illegal migrants", come to the US where they know the system is the most lax in the world.
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