Why do some still think we can win Iraq?

[bctbct]

I find the notion of winning in Iraq proposterous at this point.

We could stay there for 20 years and they will still be fighting amongst themselves for religious reasons.

Our win in Iraq was 6 months after being in Bagdad and slowly withdrawing as we tell Iraqis to step up and solve there own problems. Its been downhill since and nothing can change that.

If we leave the "freedom fighter/terrorists" will group together to rebuild, one of their chief goals I believe would be ridding the country of any real terrorists. They didnt accept them prior to the invasion and only tolerate them to be a thorn in our side.

 

[bobdelt]

because not winning isnt a viable alternative?

 

[ntdz]

Winning = leaving Iraq with a democratic government who can defend itself from the insurgents...

I don't think that's preposterous at all, in fact that's what I think will happen.

 

[Stunt]

I have no idea if you can or not.

But you broke it, you fix it. I don't care how you do it; it's just your obligation.

 

[bctbct]

Maybe I am way off base but I just do not see a way to win.

When you involve politics and religion there is no way to resolve it to everyones satsifaction. I would probably think differently if this was not taking place in the middle of a civilian populations.

Daisy cutters could slove this problem in the desert, I think some people would see this as a blow to their pride losing this war, I am over that.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: bctbct
Maybe I am way off base but I just do not see a way to win.

When you involve politics and religion there is no way to resolve it to everyones satsifaction. I would probably think differently if this was not taking place in the middle of a civilian populations.

Daisy cutters could slove this problem in the desert, I think some people would see this as a blow to their pride losing this war, I am over that.

Well, it depends on your definition of a win. If you mean rooting out all insurgents and killing every last one of them, that's impossible. However, if you mean what I said above, that is possible. We are a big part of the insurgency over there, when we leave I expect the insurgency to simmer down. However, we can't leave until the government is strong enough to survive while the insurgency is dissipated.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: bobdelt
because not winning isnt a viable alternative?

Faulty logic. Falling from a great height and dying isn't a "viable alternative", but when you jump out of a plane without a parachute, that's exactly what's going to happen no matter how much you don't want it to.

Your response answers the question of WHY we want to win in Iraq, it does nothing at all to address HOW we can win in Iraq...and the fact that a lot of people (from Bush on down) don't see the fundamental difference is what's been hurting our effort from the beginning. A British official hit the nail on the head before the invasion, saying that the Bush administration may agree that failure is not an option, but that doesn't mean they will do anything to avoid it.

 

[Martin]

They're probably delusional.

 

[bctbct]

Should this be about winning or should we move to the next best option, retreating and proping the govt up to replace us.

 

[NoShangriLa]

Originally posted by: ntdz
Winning = leaving Iraq with a democratic government who can defend itself from the insurgents...

I don't think that's preposterous at all, in fact that's what I think will happen.

I don't think it will ever be a democratic society if the party in power is a puppet of the US government.

The only way that the US can win in Iraq is totally annihilate the Muslims in the ME.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: ntdz
Winning = leaving Iraq with a democratic government who can defend itself from the insurgents...

I don't think that's preposterous at all, in fact that's what I think will happen.

What leads you to believe this? nothing has gotten better after 3 years.. it just keeps getting worse... What, based on reality, leads you to believe this is possible?

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: ntdz
Winning = leaving Iraq with a democratic government who can defend itself from the insurgents...

I don't think that's preposterous at all, in fact that's what I think will happen.

What leads you to believe this? nothing has gotten better after 3 years.. it just keeps getting worse... What, based on reality, leads you to believe this is possible?

If you read the entire thread, and specifically my 2nd post, you'd know what leads me to believe that.

 

[UberNeuman]

There is no "winning" Iraq. They aren't going to act the way some Americans think that they should, they're not going to take up the American Way? - not by the dove or by the gun....

Iraq will be what Iraq will be...

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: ntdz
Winning = leaving Iraq with a democratic government who can defend itself from the insurgents...

I don't think that's preposterous at all, in fact that's what I think will happen.

What leads you to believe this? nothing has gotten better after 3 years.. it just keeps getting worse... What, based on reality, leads you to believe this is possible?

If you read the entire thread, and specifically my 2nd post, you'd know what leads me to believe that.

Oh I read it. It gives nothing more than wishful thinking: "However, we can't leave until the government is strong enough to survive while the insurgency is dissipated. " So I ask again, "What leads you to believe this? nothing has gotten better after 3 years.. it just keeps getting worse... What, based on reality, leads you to believe this is possible?"

 

[bctbct]

Bush has been critized for staying the course, by me in fact. Democrats have been critized for not having a plan.

Bottom line, if there was something else to do, we would have done it. The most advanced dedicated army in the world has had limited results because of

culture
religion
geographic limitations
politics
lack of real support from other countries (not critizing them, turns out they had a better perspective on this war)

As Iraq takes on more responsibilty in calling the shots, our hands will be tied more.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

We'll have victory. We'll do just as the brits did nearly a century ago when they created Iraq. We'll create a crushingly cruel regime, call it democracy and leave the Iraqis to suffer under it. Then we'll say how good we are and call it a war.

 

[eilute]

Maybe Bush has never lost at anything, always done what ever he has wanted to, and has always gotten his way. Maybe his supporters live in 'worlds' that are very ethnicly uniform and they think that Bagdad is a lot Memphis Tennessee. Maybe they still see a glimmer of hope and aren't quite ready to let go of it.

This is all pure speculation. I'm not god. I have no way of crawling into other peoples minds. I cannot know what makes them tick.

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: ntdz
Winning = leaving Iraq with a democratic government who can defend itself from the insurgents...

I don't think that's preposterous at all, in fact that's what I think will happen.

The government in large parts are the insurgents.

On our best day, Iraqi's will implement a radically different form of "democracy." (i.e. Islamic Theocracy)

The Suni and Shia aren't magically going to reconcile 100 years of oppression just to appease our sense of acomplishment, and the other players in the region will assure that.

We will be involving those players in the only viable "solution" to the mess, thereby cementing the risk imposed upon Saudi Arabia from a Shia dominated Iraq backed by Syria and Iran.

Makes you wonder what the House of Faud is going to do when their new neighbors start demanding they take their American flag down or else.

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
We'll have victory. We'll do just as the brits did nearly a century ago when they created Iraq. We'll create a crushingly cruel regime, call it democracy and leave the Iraqis to suffer under it. Then we'll say how good we are and call it a war.

Don't think that'll happen, our public won't consent to it. I'd say our withdrawl under less than noble circumstances is immenent.

 

[palehorse]

patience, dedication, and tenacity.

look them up if they confuse you.

 

[2Xtreme21]

Smokin too much of the stuff they're destined to eradicate from the world.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: jjzelinski

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
We'll have victory. We'll do just as the brits did nearly a century ago when they created Iraq. We'll create a crushingly cruel regime, call it democracy and leave the Iraqis to suffer under it. Then we'll say how good we are and call it a war.

Don't think that'll happen, our public won't consent to it. I'd say our withdrawl under less than noble circumstances is immenent.

Well we left VN because it sucked, and I'll remind you that the US people would never engage in a war against helpless people doing no harm just go get one man.

Yes, it can happen although as I think of it I'm not sure we'll bother to set anything up since the radical muslims will do whatever they want anyway.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Those who think that an Iraq win is or ever was possible have never themselves been in a war situation, never spent time in combat,
never have laid down on the ground during a mortar of rocket bombardment, and have never had to shoot someone in self defense.
It just don't come down like a level of Counter-Strike or Mortal Kombat where you can re-start the game when you loose a game.

Bush and his advisers never did have to walk the walk to accompany their rhetorical attempt to talk the talk.
Those who tried to tell them the facts - Shensinki and Powell and other Generals were over-ruled so yes-men could lake the lead.
Tommy Franks didn't even lead, he just did what he was told and soldiered on with his job - perform without questioning authority.

 

[sandorski]

Only the Iraqi's can win this war. The US should step out of the way and let them at it.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Those who think that an Iraq win is or ever was possible have never themselves been in a war situation, never spent time in combat, never have laid down on the ground during a mortar of rocket bombardment, and have never had to shoot someone in self defense.

uhh, wrong...unless you were limiting that statement to only those in political power?

I still think we can win in Iraq.