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Why do some religions find it necessary to "convert" people...
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I'm Typing
Golden Member
Palco: If your fscking god is so fscking powerfull, if his fscking message is so fscking cool, if his only fscking son died for YOUR sins, and if your fscking bible will save us all, then you should not have to worry for ONE SECOND about all these "gutter religions" that you have mentioned.
If your message is so overpowering, pretty soon EVERYONE will become children of your god.
Why do religious nuts want to silence anyone who disagrees? Is it because the religion on which they base their lives is so shaky, so unstable, that it only takes one or two independent THOUGHTS to bring the religion down?
If your message is so overpowering, pretty soon EVERYONE will become children of your god.
Why do religious nuts want to silence anyone who disagrees? Is it because the religion on which they base their lives is so shaky, so unstable, that it only takes one or two independent THOUGHTS to bring the religion down?
No true religious person tries to share their faith to get more money. To suggest otherwise is just a very poor attempt to attack someone. I want to know what percentage who think that it's just about $$ actually are religious or know a priest/minister/clergyman personally? I think it will be very low or none, because they do not understand. It's amazing the amount of *experts* that have just as much factual knowledge on the subject as a hole in the ground (which they have their heads stuck in). Christians try to spread their beliefs because 1) it says to spread the word in the bible and 2) they have true convictions and believe that by sharing their faith they are helping others. Whether you agree with this or not, it's not a dirty thing and people who feel they need to devote their lives to the ministry should be respected. Let me say, that some practices are bad, e.g. JW's who will not leave when asked, but that is not the majority.
I'm Typing
Golden Member
<< No true religious person tries to share their faith to get more money. >>
Correct. It is the church itself that is in the money/power business. Those that spread the faith are just the (un)willing pawns in this grab for power, influence and money.
The evolution of the church is closely tied to any other evolutionary model: try a whole bunch of ways to survive, and the methods that work are passed on to the next generation. That is why people try to convert others to THEIR way...it is what works to keep the church alive.
The acid test for this theory is simple. Start a church that refuses donations, and preaches that the flock should not try to convert anyone. See how long it lasts.
Typing do you have any knowledge about this? No, obviously you do not. I have more intimate knowledge of the workings of a church on my little finger than you do at all. If a church didn't accept donations they wouldn't last long, because when the electrical, heating, and maintenance bills came in they'd be tossed out on their ears.
I'm Typing
Golden Member
My submission for the most obtuse thing said today:
<< That would be a great test...let's start with the Church known as...Democratic Party. >>
Quite frankly...I think it is time again...to print the HANK DIALOG!!!
This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I
found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:
"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I
want to kiss his ass?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, he'll give you a million dollars; and if
you don't, he'll kick the sh!t out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank
owns this town. He can do what ever he wants, and what he wants is to
give you a million dollars, but he can't until you kiss his ass."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million
dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has he given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the
money, and he kicks the sh!t out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the
million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year,
and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've
never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll
get
a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty
dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?
John: "Hank has certain connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And
remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the sh!t of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight
from him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss his ass?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ass. Other
times we kiss Karl's ass,and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing
Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank,
that Hank wanted you to
kiss his ass, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the
whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on From the desk of
Karl
letterhead. There were eleven items listed:
1.Kiss Hank's ass and he'll give you a million dollars when
you leave town.
2.Use alcohol in moderation.
3.Kick the sh!t out of people who aren't like you.
4.Eat right.
5.Hank dictated this list himself.
6.The moon is made of green cheese.
7.Everything Hank says is right.
8.Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9.Don't drink.
10.Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11.Kiss Hank's ass or he'll kick the sh!t out of you.
Me: "This would appear to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's
handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of
philanthropist kicks the sh!t out of people just because they're
different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough
for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides,
item 2 says Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says Eat right,' and item
8 says Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows
those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6
says The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As
far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of
rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out
of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came
from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock
came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know
Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, thelist
is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it
because the list says so.
That's circular logic, no different than saying Hank's right because he
says he's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come
around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary blushes. John says: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's
way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary looks positively stricken. John shouts: "There's no need for such
language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it
would be out of the question?"
Mary sticks her fingers in her ears: "I am not listening to this. La la
la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat
that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary faints. John catches her: "Well, if I'd known you where one of
those I wouldn't have wasted
my time. When Hank kicks the sh!t out of you I'll be there, counting my
money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless
cut-wienered kraut-eater."
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.
<< That would be a great test...let's start with the Church known as...Democratic Party. >>
Quite frankly...I think it is time again...to print the HANK DIALOG!!!
This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I
found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:
"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I
want to kiss his ass?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, he'll give you a million dollars; and if
you don't, he'll kick the sh!t out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank
owns this town. He can do what ever he wants, and what he wants is to
give you a million dollars, but he can't until you kiss his ass."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million
dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has he given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the
money, and he kicks the sh!t out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the
million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year,
and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've
never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll
get
a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty
dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?
John: "Hank has certain connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And
remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the sh!t of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight
from him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss his ass?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ass. Other
times we kiss Karl's ass,and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing
Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank,
that Hank wanted you to
kiss his ass, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the
whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on From the desk of
Karl
letterhead. There were eleven items listed:
1.Kiss Hank's ass and he'll give you a million dollars when
you leave town.
2.Use alcohol in moderation.
3.Kick the sh!t out of people who aren't like you.
4.Eat right.
5.Hank dictated this list himself.
6.The moon is made of green cheese.
7.Everything Hank says is right.
8.Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9.Don't drink.
10.Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11.Kiss Hank's ass or he'll kick the sh!t out of you.
Me: "This would appear to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's
handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of
philanthropist kicks the sh!t out of people just because they're
different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough
for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides,
item 2 says Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says Eat right,' and item
8 says Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows
those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6
says The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As
far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of
rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out
of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came
from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock
came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know
Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, thelist
is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it
because the list says so.
That's circular logic, no different than saying Hank's right because he
says he's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come
around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary blushes. John says: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's
way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary looks positively stricken. John shouts: "There's no need for such
language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it
would be out of the question?"
Mary sticks her fingers in her ears: "I am not listening to this. La la
la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat
that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary faints. John catches her: "Well, if I'd known you where one of
those I wouldn't have wasted
my time. When Hank kicks the sh!t out of you I'll be there, counting my
money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless
cut-wienered kraut-eater."
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.
I'm Typing
Golden Member
<< Typing do you have any knowledge about this? No, obviously you do not. I have more intimate knowledge of the workings of a church on my little
finger than you do at all. If a church didn't accept donations they wouldn't last long, because when the electrical, heating, and maintenance bills
came in they'd be tossed out on their ears. >>
My point exactly! The church has to survive and grow by collecting money and bodies. A church that does not collect money and bodies DIES. And THAT is the reason why religions have to "convert" people.
Jesus said to go pray in the closet, did he not? If people did that, the church would also die.
You're not making any logical point at all. If the church did not convert people they would go on with the same amount of members they currently have, and if they took collections they would be able to pay their bills. Nice dodge of the issue, you know if you had a base to stand on you wouldn't need to do that.
<< If your fscking god is so fscking powerfull, if his fscking message is so fscking cool, if his only fscking son died for YOUR sins, and if your fscking bible will save us all >>
I'm Typing:
Look, I don't care how much Mr. Palco is getting under your skin - that kind of reference to something so many of us believe in very strongly is just plain bad. Please edit out all the "fscking", it is extreemly offensive.
Lets see, the Christian god, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being that loves all people, but will send you to eternal damnation for no reason other than not worshiping him.
Sound like the Christian god is NOT worthy of any worship, and certainly not my praise. Not to mention, the only thing godly about the Christian god is its ego.
Let me guess (I am not a Christian and never read the bible, nor do I have the incentive to do so), this "god" also have a special set of "angels" that does nothing but sing praises to this so-called god 24/7.
(Yes I spell the Christian god with small caps, because its not worthy of a capital letter like the pagan Gods.)
Sound like the Christian god is NOT worthy of any worship, and certainly not my praise. Not to mention, the only thing godly about the Christian god is its ego.
Let me guess (I am not a Christian and never read the bible, nor do I have the incentive to do so), this "god" also have a special set of "angels" that does nothing but sing praises to this so-called god 24/7.
(Yes I spell the Christian god with small caps, because its not worthy of a capital letter like the pagan Gods.)
We find it our "burden" to convert people simply because we want you to enjoy "eternal life and peace" with "us" and not eternal suffering... Plus, your time here on Earth is SOOO much better too...
I go to a Very small church with currently only 9-12 regular attendee's. If religion were all about "money" and "recruiting" more people, then I would be in a miserable possition. But I'm not. It's the same for me there as it would be at one of these monolith 2,000 people churches.
I go to a Very small church with currently only 9-12 regular attendee's. If religion were all about "money" and "recruiting" more people, then I would be in a miserable possition. But I'm not. It's the same for me there as it would be at one of these monolith 2,000 people churches.
ANother thing Gamma, if you want to keep your head stuck in the sand and have an attitude like that, than you'll deserve what you are going to get.
No intension whatsoever in reading the bible?? shesh... You're limiting your own self with that attitude.
I used to be as "confused" as you are (but nowhere near as angry) until I started "READING" the bible myself... then I started to understand.
God is COMPLETELY opposite of what you view him as, but then again, you have NO IDEA anything about God, because you REFUSE to learn.
.02
No intension whatsoever in reading the bible?? shesh... You're limiting your own self with that attitude.
I used to be as "confused" as you are (but nowhere near as angry) until I started "READING" the bible myself... then I started to understand.
God is COMPLETELY opposite of what you view him as, but then again, you have NO IDEA anything about God, because you REFUSE to learn.
.02
DonaldDuck82
Banned
Just a quick correction, God doesn't damn people, he simply judges them on a preset set of rules, and is fair... is that so difficult, if i were you i would want to know what the rules were
robotcholi
Golden Member
I find this very sad 🙁
<< (Yes I spell the Christian god with small caps, because its not worthy of a capital letter like the pagan Gods.) >>
If you don't believe in any god, then that is simply an attack on christianity. Discuss this civily or leave.
As for the hell issue, most major (and minor) religions believe in a form of hell - from the ancient Romans (pagan Gods as you put it) to some of the largest faiths today. If you plan to damn christianity for the concept that Hitler isn't in heaven right now - be prepared to do the same to the other religions that also have a belief in a "hell".
Oh wait - you won't do that because it isn't "cool", right?
<<Who has their head in the sand. Someone who only reads the bible and believes nothing but it, or someone who reads everything but the bible and judges their beliefs upon those readings? >>
I don't recall God writting any other books? 😉
Uhmm, you think the Bible is the only book written on Christian religion? You should take a trip to a Christain book store.. you'd be surprised the amount of reading material (on ALL religions)
I don't recall God writting any other books? 😉
Uhmm, you think the Bible is the only book written on Christian religion? You should take a trip to a Christain book store.. you'd be surprised the amount of reading material (on ALL religions)
Imagine if this thread were about ANY other major faith... ANY other one.
Not only would it have been locked, but not one of you would DARE post some of the crap you have.
Its only cool to bash religion and faith if its christianity, right?
Why not discuss your beliefs civilly and avoid attacking what some of us believe in?
Not only would it have been locked, but not one of you would DARE post some of the crap you have.
Its only cool to bash religion and faith if its christianity, right?
Why not discuss your beliefs civilly and avoid attacking what some of us believe in?
Hey, I "hate" organized religion, and the Christian religion in particular. Partly because of how "some" members of the group conduct themselves.
Put it this way, I have the religious experience of sending a "missionary" to jail for violating a restraining order (serveral occasions) I had on him when he was trying to "save" me (on a frequent basis, like 3AM in the morning). It wasn't a major christian sect, but a christian cult group who thinks I am the reincarnation of someone important, and thus I need to be converted. (I know that the mainstream Christian religion does not believe in reincarnation.) In the end, it left a very bitter taste in my mouth.
So yes, part of my hatred for the Christian religion is personal. I know is not fair to judge an entire group (Christians) on the actions of a few. Especially when the said group is not even part of mainstream Christianity, and what many Christians will claim that they are not "true" Christians. Logic tells me that I should not hold all Christians accountable for the actions of the few, especially a cult who latches on to Christianity as a basis to attract more members. In the end, I am human, and my heart say otherwise.
Put it this way, I have the religious experience of sending a "missionary" to jail for violating a restraining order (serveral occasions) I had on him when he was trying to "save" me (on a frequent basis, like 3AM in the morning). It wasn't a major christian sect, but a christian cult group who thinks I am the reincarnation of someone important, and thus I need to be converted. (I know that the mainstream Christian religion does not believe in reincarnation.) In the end, it left a very bitter taste in my mouth.
So yes, part of my hatred for the Christian religion is personal. I know is not fair to judge an entire group (Christians) on the actions of a few. Especially when the said group is not even part of mainstream Christianity, and what many Christians will claim that they are not "true" Christians. Logic tells me that I should not hold all Christians accountable for the actions of the few, especially a cult who latches on to Christianity as a basis to attract more members. In the end, I am human, and my heart say otherwise.
Preyhunter
Golden Member
<< A church that does not collect money and bodies DIES. >>
Part of this statement is true. The "church" is not a building, it is the congregation. If new members do not join, then the church is seemingly dead when ALL of its congregation is dead. This doesn't mean that it would be dead from then on, all it takes is one believer for there to be a church. Now, the church and services could go on without money being given to it, services could be held at someone's house for which the bills are being paid for already as part of normal life, other members could purchase literature on their own for distribution by themselves and the other members, etc. It is not about money, but the money helps to spread the Word more rapidly.
<< Lets see, the Christian god, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being that loves all people, but will send you to eternal damnation for no reason other than not worshiping him. >>
It's not His fault that you would end up with eternal damnation, He has given all people the freedom to choose to believe in and accept Him, or to reject Him. It is a consequence of YOUR choosing what happens to you.
GammaRayX,
That's sad to hear, and unfortunatally, it's something that gives Christianity a horrible image. There are just too many "cults I like to say" that are not lead by the true spirit of God. These cults are actually Christianities worst enemies simply because they "tear down" so much of what we try to build up "in faith" of God people have.
I can just say, try to forget about it. Trust me, I do understand the confusion and hatered people have, I too was once an unbeliever, but as I've said, you never really know until you search out, and by that, I simply mean read.
Sometimes you have to step back and take a longer look at what you see in "so called" Christian organisations... there are many many many. A lot of them are in tune with each other, and some stand out as plainly being different (as in the case you explained). After a while, you begin to be able to discern the difference and regognize true from false. 😉
That's sad to hear, and unfortunatally, it's something that gives Christianity a horrible image. There are just too many "cults I like to say" that are not lead by the true spirit of God. These cults are actually Christianities worst enemies simply because they "tear down" so much of what we try to build up "in faith" of God people have.
I can just say, try to forget about it. Trust me, I do understand the confusion and hatered people have, I too was once an unbeliever, but as I've said, you never really know until you search out, and by that, I simply mean read.
Sometimes you have to step back and take a longer look at what you see in "so called" Christian organisations... there are many many many. A lot of them are in tune with each other, and some stand out as plainly being different (as in the case you explained). After a while, you begin to be able to discern the difference and regognize true from false. 😉
<< It's not His fault that you would end up with eternal damnation, He has given all people the freedom to choose to believe in and accept Him, or to reject Him. It is a consequence of YOUR choosing what happens to you. >>
What makes Christianity anymore right than say Hindu, or Islam? What if I like a decent and honest life, but does not "kiss" up so said being's rear. Am I still damned? If so, that is enough for me NOT to praise said egomaniac. And besides, what about those people before Christ's time or those who never heard of him, are those are going to feel the wrath of god? And what about those who heard the bane of Christ but have strong convictions on "other" religions and feel those are right. Are they too going to hell?
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