They're seen as allegorical, so the magic in the books are representative of one side or the other. Most of the "magic" in it is a way of expressing spiritual rules.
I've used that example to ask a lot of Christians what their problem is with fantasy though, and a lot of them can't come up with much. Sheep mentality takes over a lot, I think. If a Christian wrote it, it must be ok.
Where does the "ALL scripture is inspired of God" [2 Timothy 3:16] fit in?
The ONLY scripture that the christians of st paul's day had was the Jewish "bible".
:roll:
:thumbsdown:
try, try, again
---------------------------
your bible is VERY CLEAR when it prohits something [homosexuality] . . . but NO prohibition on "god's friend" [abraham] having sex with his sister [sarah] . . . . or ANY record of gpd's disapproving of Lot and his two daughter's incest.
:disgust:
and you seem to me trying to make the bible say something it doesn't. it DOES condone genocide . . . it ORDERED it. - and not in "isolated'" cases - ENTIRE NATIONS were EXTERMINATED by the jews - by Yahweh's "command" {btw, Yahweh is Jesus dad).
Christianity is really a cult of Judaism.
Originally posted by: KarenMarie
not all christians do.
fundies do. but not all christians. but no matter what religion, political party or organisations ... there will be the fundies.
Correct. Just like there are a few dumbass mofos who try to catagorize all christians into the same stereotypes and catagories, there are a few christian groups who take things to the extreme.
Originally posted by: apoppin
Where does the "ALL scripture is inspired of God" [2 Timothy 3:16] fit in?
The ONLY scripture that the christians of st paul's day had was the Jewish "bible".
:roll:
:thumbsdown:
try, try, again
---------------------------
your bible is VERY CLEAR when it prohits something [homosexuality] . . . but NO prohibition on "god's friend" [abraham] having sex with his sister [sarah] . . . . or ANY record of gpd's disapproving of Lot and his two daughter's incest.
:disgust:
and you seem to me trying to make the bible say something it doesn't. it DOES condone genocide . . . it ORDERED it. - and not in "isolated'" cases - ENTIRE NATIONS were EXTERMINATED by the jews - by Yahweh's "command" {btw, Yahweh is Jesus dad).
Christianity is really a cult of Judaism.
There are sections of the Bible that deal specifically with the law. Some of the Bible reads like historical stories... as accounts of events happening, kind of like news stories that don't present a moral judgment, but rather, just convey things as they happen. Other sections are poetic. Others are prophetic.
Can God work with sinners? He can and He does. Does that justify the sin? No. Was there a law prohibiting Abraham from marrying his half-sister? (not his sister... I'm assuming people marrying their sisters in that day was a lot more common than it is now.) No. Furthermore, did God approach Abraham before or after Sarai became his wife? Before. Who was Abraham's father? An idolater. Why did God choose Abraham? We don't know. We just know that He did for His own reasons.
You are right in that the Bible is very clear when it prohibits something. Homosexuality is a sin. Does that mean that God can't work in the lives of homosexuals? No. He can, and in many cases, I believe he chooses to. Heterosexual sin is just as bad, and God can work in the lives of heterosexual sinners as well. Jesus said that whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart, meaning that sinful thoughts culminate into sinful action, so the "cure" has to come from within, not by merely trying to change behavior but still keep the same sinful thoughts.
The wages of sin is death, per Romans 6:23. Did Abraham die? Yes. Did Lot die? Yes. Did Lot's sisters die? Yes. If you want a tacit argument for how the Bible condemns these people due to their own failures, there it is. Also, the Bible declares homosexuality a sin. Can you find a case in the Bible where a homosexual was put to death? I can't. It probably happened, but the Bible doesn't record it. There are a lot of things that happened that aren't in the Bible. God doesn't have a running commentary on what exactly he thinks about every situation in Scripture. He allows a lot of sinful things to happen because were he to stop all forms of sin, he would either have to abolish freedom or he'd have to abolish humanity. Abraham wasn't justified by having sex with Hagar or Sarah. He was justified through his faith. "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." God doesn't just see people as they are. He sees people as everything they're going to become because he's not bound by time.
I never said the Bible didn't condone genocide. I told you to look at Joshua. Genocide is clearly God-directed and mandated in the Joshua account, and this was an isolated case. You're right. Entire nations were exterminated by the Jews. Were these nations sinful? Yes. Did they deserve to die? Yes. Is it normally God's idea for people to go around killing other people just because they deserve to die? No... for some reason, he ordained it at this moment in their history. I don't claim to know his reasons, and I don't like the idea of genocide. It's not pleasant. But if God told me directly to do something, I'd do it, even if it didn't make sense to me. Abraham was ready to kill his own son just because God told him to. God stopped him from killing Isaac because it was a test of faith, but Abraham was going to do it, believing that God would raise him from the dead. So do I believe everyone who says they have a divine mandate to kill? Of course not. But if you march around a city 13 times over the course of a week and blow your trumpets and all the walls come down, there's some force that's powerful at work. If you cross the Red Sea on dry ground and witness the destruction to the water of those trying to chase you down and kill you, you learn to believe that God has significant plans for you. What I have to come back to as a Christian is that morality comes from God. As the Creator of life, He has the right to take it away, just as by His power, life was granted. It doesn't make me like genocide any more, though, and in general cases, i.e., for the practical, everyday Christian life, things like "genocide" would be unacceptable.
Christianity isn't a cult of Judaism, although it has its roots in it. If you want, you can say that Jesus revolutionized Judaism in such a way that people were "chosen" of God by faith and not by heritage. And Jesus would be the first to tell you that the Judaic law was abused... that men responsible for administering it failed in many cases, which is why he was quite outspoken against the pharicees and many of the religious rulers of the day.
Schadenfroh
Elite Member
- Mar 8, 2003
- 38,416
- 4
- 0
I have a problem with everything and believe in nothing.
So really, I have a problem with nothing.
So really, I have a problem with nothing.
Kadarin
Lifer
- Nov 23, 2001
- 44,296
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- 81
Slightly OT here, but.. Did Jesus actually say that looking upon any woman with lust is "adultery"? That's a condemnation of sexuality as a whole, which is a centerpiece of human nature. Two things come to mind:
Did he completely forget, or did he never realize that women look upon men (and sometimes other women) with lustful thougts as well?
WHY did he feel it so necessary for us to deny ourselves this cornerstone of our very humanity?
Originally posted by: xirtam
Originally posted by: apoppin
your bible is VERY CLEAR when it prohits something [homosexuality] . . . but NO prohibition on "god's friend" [abraham] having sex with his sister [sarah] . . . . or ANY record of gpd's disapproving of Lot and his two daughter's incest.
:disgust:
and you seem to me trying to make the bible say something it doesn't. it DOES condone genocide . . . it ORDERED it. - and not in "isolated'" cases - ENTIRE NATIONS were EXTERMINATED by the jews - by Yahweh's "command" {btw, Yahweh is Jesus dad).
Christianity is really a cult of Judaism.
There are sections of the Bible that deal specifically with the law. Some of the Bible reads like historical stories... as accounts of events happening, kind of like news stories that don't present a moral judgment, but rather, just convey things as they happen. Other sections are poetic. Others are prophetic.
Can God work with sinners? He can and He does. Does that justify the sin? No. Was there a law prohibiting Abraham from marrying his half-sister? (not his sister... I'm assuming people marrying their sisters in that day was a lot more common than it is now.) No. Furthermore, did God approach Abraham before or after Sarai became his wife? Before. Who was Abraham's father? An idolater. Why did God choose Abraham? We don't know. We just know that He did for His own reasons.
You are right in that the Bible is very clear when it prohibits something. Homosexuality is a sin. Does that mean that God can't work in the lives of homosexuals? No. He can, and in many cases, I believe he chooses to. Heterosexual sin is just as bad, and God can work in the lives of heterosexual sinners as well. Jesus said that whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart, meaning that sinful thoughts culminate into sinful action, so the "cure" has to come from within, not by merely trying to change behavior but still keep the same sinful thoughts.
The wages of sin is death, per Romans 6:23. Did Abraham die? Yes. Did Lot die? Yes. Did Lot's sisters die? Yes. If you want a tacit argument for how the Bible condemns these people due to their own failures, there it is. Also, the Bible declares homosexuality a sin. Can you find a case in the Bible where a homosexual was put to death? I can't. It probably happened, but the Bible doesn't record it. There are a lot of things that happened that aren't in the Bible. God doesn't have a running commentary on what exactly he thinks about every situation in Scripture. He allows a lot of sinful things to happen because were he to stop all forms of sin, he would either have to abolish freedom or he'd have to abolish humanity. Abraham wasn't justified by having sex with Hagar or Sarah. He was justified through his faith. "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." God doesn't just see people as they are. He sees people as everything they're going to become because he's not bound by time.
I never said the Bible didn't condone genocide. I told you to look at Joshua. Genocide is clearly God-directed and mandated in the Joshua account, and this was an isolated case. You're right. Entire nations were exterminated by the Jews. Were these nations sinful? Yes. Did they deserve to die? Yes. Is it normally God's idea for people to go around killing other people just because they deserve to die? No... for some reason, he ordained it at this moment in their history. I don't claim to know his reasons, and I don't like the idea of genocide. It's not pleasant. But if God told me directly to do something, I'd do it, even if it didn't make sense to me. Abraham was ready to kill his own son just because God told him to. God stopped him from killing Isaac because it was a test of faith, but Abraham was going to do it, believing that God would raise him from the dead. So do I believe everyone who says they have a divine mandate to kill? Of course not. But if you march around a city 13 times over the course of a week and blow your trumpets and all the walls come down, there's some force that's powerful at work. If you cross the Red Sea on dry ground and witness the destruction to the water of those trying to chase you down and kill you, you learn to believe that God has significant plans for you. What I have to come back to as a Christian is that morality comes from God. As the Creator of life, He has the right to take it away, just as by His power, life was granted. It doesn't make me like genocide any more, though, and in general cases, i.e., for the practical, everyday Christian life, things like "genocide" would be unacceptable.
Christianity isn't a cult of Judaism, although it has its roots in it. If you want, you can say that Jesus revolutionized Judaism in such a way that people were "chosen" of God by faith and not by heritage. And Jesus would be the first to tell you that the Judaic law was abused... that men responsible for administering it failed in many cases, which is why he was quite outspoken against the pharicees and many of the religious rulers of the day.
is seems - to me - that you are just making excuses for the moral inconsistencies of a book that is purported to have one author
can i find an "instance" of putting a homosexual to death in the bible? it was the LAW of Moses . . . . there was no "other penalty" [like there were for adultry]. ANYONE caught engaging in gay sex was to be executed [no exceptions].
and now you got to the "if god told me to kill someone" . . . you'd do it
. . . IF you hear god tell you to kill someone . . . please seek help . . . you are INsane.
:roll:
What "i" am saying is that NO god told Moses to genocide their neighbors - the jews "made it up" to JUSTIFY their actions [like Islam does and did; like the Catholic church did in the crusades and the Inquisition].
:roll:
:thumbsdown:
I'm not saying that I have a "morally superiour consciousness - just saying that there are parts of the bible that disturb the hell out of me and make me question my involvement in an organization that considers passages such as Numbers 31 to be the divine infallible word of God. To be clear, as I read it, God ordered the slaughter of an entire nation - except for the young virgin girls who were divied up as slaves between the soldiers and the priests. I bet they weren't just doing the dishes. And this is just the most clear cut case - it's not an anomaly. Is it hard to see how various despots throughout history have justified their horrors in the name of the bible?
As I see it, there are two horns on this dilemna -
a. The bible is the divine infallible word of God. Genocide is OK, Incest is OK, etc. So if GWB, or Bendict XIV, or somebody else tells us he's had a vision from the Lord that we are to destroy the infidels that offend him - to go do a Numbers 31 on their ass - then that's OK. Right?
b. We need to interpret and judge the bible - not everything described is condoned by the Lord. Even when the Bible says He ordered a particularly heinious event, we need to judge and interpret that. So did he really mean that stuff about homosexuals? What else can we start to question here - where does the slippery slope lead? I think this is why the fundies want to take the strict literal approach - they don't like where this leads. Can't say that I care much for it either, but the other approach is jeven uglier in my mind.
It says pretty clearly that God ordered the slaughter of the Midians. Is the Bible wrong on that point? That opens quite a can of worms if it is.
I'd say the Bible has no less blood on its hands then the Koran in this respect.
"other than his wife"
we really don't know what jesus actually said. . . . there are the remains of what 4 "witnesses" wrote . . . and only two actually knew him.
the new testament part of the bible is "work by committee" - "approved" by the early organized christian church.
The bible writer known as St Paul is the one that most condemns gays. Strangely, Jesus never discussed it - it was POPULAR in the world of his day.
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: xirtam
Originally posted by: apoppin
your bible is VERY CLEAR when it prohits something [homosexuality] . . . but NO prohibition on "god's friend" [abraham] having sex with his sister [sarah] . . . . or ANY record of gpd's disapproving of Lot and his two daughter's incest.
:disgust:
and you seem to me trying to make the bible say something it doesn't. it DOES condone genocide . . . it ORDERED it. - and not in "isolated'" cases - ENTIRE NATIONS were EXTERMINATED by the jews - by Yahweh's "command" {btw, Yahweh is Jesus dad).
Christianity is really a cult of Judaism.
There are sections of the Bible that deal specifically with the law. Some of the Bible reads like historical stories... as accounts of events happening, kind of like news stories that don't present a moral judgment, but rather, just convey things as they happen. Other sections are poetic. Others are prophetic.
Can God work with sinners? He can and He does. Does that justify the sin? No. Was there a law prohibiting Abraham from marrying his half-sister? (not his sister... I'm assuming people marrying their sisters in that day was a lot more common than it is now.) No. Furthermore, did God approach Abraham before or after Sarai became his wife? Before. Who was Abraham's father? An idolater. Why did God choose Abraham? We don't know. We just know that He did for His own reasons.
You are right in that the Bible is very clear when it prohibits something. Homosexuality is a sin. Does that mean that God can't work in the lives of homosexuals? No. He can, and in many cases, I believe he chooses to. Heterosexual sin is just as bad, and God can work in the lives of heterosexual sinners as well. Jesus said that whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart, meaning that sinful thoughts culminate into sinful action, so the "cure" has to come from within, not by merely trying to change behavior but still keep the same sinful thoughts.
The wages of sin is death, per Romans 6:23. Did Abraham die? Yes. Did Lot die? Yes. Did Lot's sisters die? Yes. If you want a tacit argument for how the Bible condemns these people due to their own failures, there it is. Also, the Bible declares homosexuality a sin. Can you find a case in the Bible where a homosexual was put to death? I can't. It probably happened, but the Bible doesn't record it. There are a lot of things that happened that aren't in the Bible. God doesn't have a running commentary on what exactly he thinks about every situation in Scripture. He allows a lot of sinful things to happen because were he to stop all forms of sin, he would either have to abolish freedom or he'd have to abolish humanity. Abraham wasn't justified by having sex with Hagar or Sarah. He was justified through his faith. "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." God doesn't just see people as they are. He sees people as everything they're going to become because he's not bound by time.
I never said the Bible didn't condone genocide. I told you to look at Joshua. Genocide is clearly God-directed and mandated in the Joshua account, and this was an isolated case. You're right. Entire nations were exterminated by the Jews. Were these nations sinful? Yes. Did they deserve to die? Yes. Is it normally God's idea for people to go around killing other people just because they deserve to die? No... for some reason, he ordained it at this moment in their history. I don't claim to know his reasons, and I don't like the idea of genocide. It's not pleasant. But if God told me directly to do something, I'd do it, even if it didn't make sense to me. Abraham was ready to kill his own son just because God told him to. God stopped him from killing Isaac because it was a test of faith, but Abraham was going to do it, believing that God would raise him from the dead. So do I believe everyone who says they have a divine mandate to kill? Of course not. But if you march around a city 13 times over the course of a week and blow your trumpets and all the walls come down, there's some force that's powerful at work. If you cross the Red Sea on dry ground and witness the destruction to the water of those trying to chase you down and kill you, you learn to believe that God has significant plans for you. What I have to come back to as a Christian is that morality comes from God. As the Creator of life, He has the right to take it away, just as by His power, life was granted. It doesn't make me like genocide any more, though, and in general cases, i.e., for the practical, everyday Christian life, things like "genocide" would be unacceptable.
Christianity isn't a cult of Judaism, although it has its roots in it. If you want, you can say that Jesus revolutionized Judaism in such a way that people were "chosen" of God by faith and not by heritage. And Jesus would be the first to tell you that the Judaic law was abused... that men responsible for administering it failed in many cases, which is why he was quite outspoken against the pharicees and many of the religious rulers of the day.
is seems - to me - that you are just making excuses for the moral inconsistencies of a book that is purported to have one author
can i find an "instance" of putting a homosexual to death in the bible? it was the LAW of Moses . . . . there was no "other penalty" [like there were for adultry]. ANYONE caught engaging in gay sex was to be executed [no exceptions].
and now you got to the "if god told me to kill someone" . . . you'd do it
. . . IF you hear god tell you to kill someone . . . please seek help . . . you are INsane.
:roll:
What "i" am saying is that NO god told Moses to genocide their neighbors - the jews "made it up" to JUSTIFY their actions [like Islam does and did; like the Catholic church did in the crusades and the Inquisition].
:roll:
:thumbsdown:
Now I understand your interpretation, and you understand mine. I don't think either of us are going to change our minds on the issue, and I thank God that he hasn't commanded me to take life, nor do I think he will.
I don't think the jews "made it up," or they would have modified their own scripture so that they would have been successful. Why would they want to document their failures? It's one of the reasons I think the Bible is as valid as I do. I don't condone Islam's jihads or the Catholic church's inquisitions.
I understand that you don't think God told Moses to kill. I understand that you don't think God told Joshua to kill. I do. The Jewish exodus from slavery in Egypt was nothing short of a miracle, and their subsequent battles were equally miraculous. Contrast that to the Crusades, which had no sign of divine intervention, and the inquisition, which was basically a house-to-house slaughter of people because of their beliefs. There's nothing "Christian" about that. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find that genocide ought to be an active part of Christianity, and that's where it differs in my mind from Islam.
Don't get me wrong. There are parts of the Bible that disturb the hell out of me too. That just reinforces the idea in my mind that it's accurate. It's saying something like, "look, this isn't a pretty picture, but here's what happened."
According to the Old Testament, God did order the slaughter of people. The Bible doesn't record his reasons. What you have to bear in mind is the significant signs that these people saw from the Lord. God made himself known to these people in a far more physical way than I can find anywhere else in history, assuming it happens as it was recorded. What evidence do I have that GWB or Benedict XIV is operating under that same guidance? None. If I see God part the Red Sea for Bush, maybe I'll be more inclined to believe that what he's doing is "God's work" and that it's not just coming out of his own head. I never said that the Bible never condoned genocide, only that it doesn't condone genocide in general terms. I think God ordered the slaughter of the Midians, and I see no difference between that and the slaughter of almost everyone in the world in Genesis 6. God is sovereign. Doesn't mean I happen to like all the consequences, and it doesn't mean that I'm happy with the way everything he orders turns out.
A lot of people get caught up so far in the specifics that they neglect the big picture. I think that's what Jesus came to remedy. Look at what he did with all the specifics people threw at him.
Islam teaches that salvation can be earned through engaging in and dying in a holy war (a jihad). Christianity offers nothing of the sort. Peter draws his sword, and the first thing Christ is telling him to do is to put it away, because those who live by the sword die by it.
The jewish exodus from Egypt is ONLY told in Jewish writing . . . neither the Egyptians nor any OTHER nation's history support their "version" of what happened.
A lot of "stuff" gets added to history where it is UNcorroborated - especially by a nation of self-congratulating religious zealots that ADMIT they genocided their Caananite neighbors. How do you KNOW that Yahweh told them "anything" . . . that they didn't "make up" their history - exaggerating the battles (in just ONE case the sun and moon stood still and the sun didn't set for many hours so Joshua could finish the battle) and supposed 'divine intervention'.
With the Crusades and the inquisiton we have BOTH sides of history. . . . MANY witnesses. OTOH, the jews have NOTHING - other than their word - that these events happened as written.
And if they didn't happen, then you have no record that any such genocide took place; therefore your sole complaint is an unverifiable argument that the Jews are liars.
it is YoUR bible :roll:
[the one you claim is the word of god]
i am just stating it is a morally reprehensible document [either they are liars OR genociders OR they are liars AND genociders . . . or god really "told them"]
is there another choice?
so . . . for a quick reply . . . there is NO consistency or "why".
"some" have a problem with it while others don't
you are so stupid ... worse than sheep ... tell ur sunday school folks they are not herding you right ... u dumbtard ...
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