Why do people think that electric cars will change everything

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: calvinbiss
Per mile driven, an electric car (using electricty produced by any means) is thousands of times more efficient than an internal combustion engine.

I call BS.

Aren't most ICE's about 35-38% efficient? A coal fired plant is generally in that range give or take. We have a combined cycle plant here that is one of the most efficient in the world, and it's only at 50%.

See my post above. An electric motor operates around 90% efficiency. A cars internal combustion engine runs about 18% efficiency. A gas plant is about 40%. You can wiki those numbers if you don't believe me. The maximum efficiency of an ICE is 37%.

Maybe not 1000x more efficient, but it is pretty good on the efficiency side of things. Also, electric motors become MORE efficient the larger they are. Good news for big semi trucks 🙂

 

[BurnItDwn]

Originally posted by: Xylitol
We're just gonna have to burn more coal to fuel the amount of energy needed by these electric cars... we're gonna be making pollution either way

Coal is Domestically mined. There are HUGE reserves.
Oil is mostly imported.

Electric cars = less dependency on foreign oil ...

Less dependency on foreign oil = high oil prices don't sting us as bad.


As far as pollution, it's certainly not desirable, but we have so many problems right now, pollution is not even close to a main focus for most of the population ...


That said ... Nuclear power does release some "heat pollution" but overall it's much much cleaner than oil, coal, or any other currently economically viable electricity source....

 

[LordMorpheus]

Originally posted by: Cogman

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: calvinbiss
Per mile driven, an electric car (using electricty produced by any means) is thousands of times more efficient than an internal combustion engine.

I call BS.

Aren't most ICE's about 35-38% efficient? A coal fired plant is generally in that range give or take. We have a combined cycle plant here that is one of the most efficient in the world, and it's only at 50%.

See my post above. An electric motor operates around 90% efficiency. A cars internal combustion engine runs about 18% efficiency. A gas plant is about 40%. You can wiki those numbers if you don't believe me. The maximum efficiency of an ICE is 37%.

Maybe not 1000x more efficient, but it is pretty good on the efficiency side of things. Also, electric motors become MORE efficient the larger they are. Good news for big semi trucks 🙂

Also, any efficiency numbers you see for a car's engine will be it's peak value. A process like burning fuel to make power is most efficient on a large scale in relatively static conditions (i.e. driving a huge steam turbine and not moving a car in start-stop traffic).

Even with the peak values of efficiency for vehicle engines, the power plants still win big. With the actual real-world efficiency of cars as operated in normal conditions, power plants score even higher.

We ran a lab during my undergrad to measure the efficiency of a small toyota 4 cylinder. We had it mounted driving a water brake. We ran it up, let it warm up, then set up the brake to let it find a stable rpm at WOT and did our measurements. I don't remember what speed was the highest efficiency, but our peak value was a little south of 30, and this is in conditions ideal as they get. start playing with the throttle position, speed, load, etc, and that number will plummet.

 

[Fenixgoon]

electric cars will be great once america decides to build more (nuclear) power plants.

people are so goddamned stupid - they want a new source of energy but won't build *anything*

 

[NL5]

Originally posted by: Cogman

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: calvinbiss
Per mile driven, an electric car (using electricty produced by any means) is thousands of times more efficient than an internal combustion engine.

I call BS.

Aren't most ICE's about 35-38% efficient? A coal fired plant is generally in that range give or take. We have a combined cycle plant here that is one of the most efficient in the world, and it's only at 50%.

See my post above. An electric motor operates around 90% efficiency. A cars internal combustion engine runs about 18% efficiency. A gas plant is about 40%. You can wiki those numbers if you don't believe me. The maximum efficiency of an ICE is 37%.

Maybe not 1000x more efficient, but it is pretty good on the efficiency side of things. Also, electric motors become MORE efficient the larger they are. Good news for big semi trucks 🙂

.9 x .4 = .36 That still doesn't account for transmission losses, battery charge up losses, battery storage losses, battery discharge losses, etc.

At best, it's slightly better than burning gasoline. Certainly not 1000X. Not 100X. Not 10X. Not even close.


As far as electricity for big trucks - where you gonna store enough energy to run this giant electric motor?

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: Cogman

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: calvinbiss
Per mile driven, an electric car (using electricty produced by any means) is thousands of times more efficient than an internal combustion engine.

I call BS.

Aren't most ICE's about 35-38% efficient? A coal fired plant is generally in that range give or take. We have a combined cycle plant here that is one of the most efficient in the world, and it's only at 50%.

See my post above. An electric motor operates around 90% efficiency. A cars internal combustion engine runs about 18% efficiency. A gas plant is about 40%. You can wiki those numbers if you don't believe me. The maximum efficiency of an ICE is 37%.

Maybe not 1000x more efficient, but it is pretty good on the efficiency side of things. Also, electric motors become MORE efficient the larger they are. Good news for big semi trucks 🙂

.9 x .4 = .36 That still doesn't account for transmission losses, battery charge up losses, battery storage losses, battery discharge losses, etc.

At best, it's slightly better than burning gasoline. Certainly not 1000X. Not 100X. Not 10X. Not even close.


As far as electricity for big trucks - where you gonna store enough energy to run this giant electric motor?

Transmission losses are somewhat of a problem, however for close ranges to the power plants (IE within the same state) we do have pretty good efficiency rates there (like 99.999%). Battery charge up looses are around 90-95% efficiency. I don't know what you mean by "battery storage losses", battery discharge losses are a moot point, given that many modern rechargeable batteries have an internal resistance of like 1-2 ohms. Now, if you really want to talk about transmission losses, How much gas is burned by all gas trucks across the nation just to deliver gas to each gas station?

36% is a heck of a lot more efficient then 18% and it is in no way "slightly better". The other losses you sited are not that big of a deal as most of them are extremely small losses. And that is just using one technology. It is much easier to make big power plants more efficient then making little cars more efficient.

As for the semi truck comment, I was being sarcastic. As you have aptly pointed out the energy storage weight could quickly counteract any efficiency benefits.

Probably the biggest problem with electric cars is energy storage. This is something that we need a pretty good breakthrough in. Right now our Li-Ion batteries just don't cut it, with a 5% capacity loss per year it quickly becomes a problem for needing to replace your car batteries. Other battery techs offer lower capacity and have some leakage problems (NiMH).

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: Cogman

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: calvinbiss
Per mile driven, an electric car (using electricty produced by any means) is thousands of times more efficient than an internal combustion engine.

I call BS.

Aren't most ICE's about 35-38% efficient? A coal fired plant is generally in that range give or take. We have a combined cycle plant here that is one of the most efficient in the world, and it's only at 50%.

See my post above. An electric motor operates around 90% efficiency. A cars internal combustion engine runs about 18% efficiency. A gas plant is about 40%. You can wiki those numbers if you don't believe me. The maximum efficiency of an ICE is 37%.

Maybe not 1000x more efficient, but it is pretty good on the efficiency side of things. Also, electric motors become MORE efficient the larger they are. Good news for big semi trucks 🙂

.9 x .4 = .36 That still doesn't account for transmission losses, battery charge up losses, battery storage losses, battery discharge losses, etc.

At best, it's slightly better than burning gasoline. Certainly not 1000X. Not 100X. Not 10X. Not even close.


As far as electricity for big trucks - where you gonna store enough energy to run this giant electric motor?

Not that I disagree in the fact the the spread probably isn't huge, but if we're going to look at it that way, we have to look at the whole picture.

We can assume (for simplicity) that the plant and the gas station are buying it from the same location. If you're going to add in the efficiency of getting the electricity to the car, shouldn't you factor in the efficiency of getting oil to the car also?

I would imagine the distribution system to gas stations is a lot less efficient than the distribution to the plants? Let alone the fact that, price wise, it creates a whole additional level of economic inefficiency in that you need distribution centers, whereas electric cars the distribution center is your home (though if we go widespread electric, I'm sure there'll be electric refueling stations, but I would assume the majority of the power will still come from plugging in at home).

 

[funkymatt]

Originally posted by: Cogman

Probably the biggest problem with electric cars is energy storage. This is something that we need a pretty good breakthrough in. Right now our Li-Ion batteries just don't cut it, with a 5% capacity loss per year it quickly becomes a problem for needing to replace your car batteries. Other battery techs offer lower capacity and have some leakage problems (NiMH).

what do you think of giant capcitors instead of battery packs?

 

[Newbian]

Originally posted by: leftyman
weren't we all supposed to be riding flying cars by now?

Fixed.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: Cogman

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: calvinbiss
Per mile driven, an electric car (using electricty produced by any means) is thousands of times more efficient than an internal combustion engine.

I call BS.

Aren't most ICE's about 35-38% efficient? A coal fired plant is generally in that range give or take. We have a combined cycle plant here that is one of the most efficient in the world, and it's only at 50%.

See my post above. An electric motor operates around 90% efficiency. A cars internal combustion engine runs about 18% efficiency. A gas plant is about 40%. You can wiki those numbers if you don't believe me. The maximum efficiency of an ICE is 37%.

Maybe not 1000x more efficient, but it is pretty good on the efficiency side of things. Also, electric motors become MORE efficient the larger they are. Good news for big semi trucks 🙂

.9 x .4 = .36 That still doesn't account for transmission losses, battery charge up losses, battery storage losses, battery discharge losses, etc.

At best, it's slightly better than burning gasoline. Certainly not 1000X. Not 100X. Not 10X. Not even close.


As far as electricity for big trucks - where you gonna store enough energy to run this giant electric motor?

Not that I disagree in the fact the the spread probably isn't huge, but if we're going to look at it that way, we have to look at the whole picture.

We can assume (for simplicity) that the plant and the gas station are buying it from the same location. If you're going to add in the efficiency of getting the electricity to the car, shouldn't you factor in the efficiency of getting oil to the car also?

I would imagine the distribution system to gas stations is a lot less efficient than the distribution to the plants? Let alone the fact that, price wise, it creates a whole additional level of economic inefficiency in that you need distribution centers, whereas electric cars the distribution center is your home (though if we go widespread electric, I'm sure there'll be electric refueling stations, but I would assume the majority of the power will still come from plugging in at home).

distribution and construction of replacement of massive batteries pretty much evens it out.

 

[edro]

Why can't we make cars that run on lightning?

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: funkymatt

Originally posted by: Cogman

Probably the biggest problem with electric cars is energy storage. This is something that we need a pretty good breakthrough in. Right now our Li-Ion batteries just don't cut it, with a 5% capacity loss per year it quickly becomes a problem for needing to replace your car batteries. Other battery techs offer lower capacity and have some leakage problems (NiMH).

what do you think of giant capcitors instead of battery packs?

they are not as safe as batteries...

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: edro
Why can't we make cars that run on lightning?

They have, it just has to be White Lightning. 😉

 

[lifeobry]

Electric cars are a distraction. But ethanol burns my blood more than anything else.

We need some innovations, because all these stop-gap solutions piss me off. We might as well just slap huge regulations on the auto industry so we're all driving smart cars and SUVs become illegal. I'd prefer that to all this pseudo-green BS.

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: lifeobry
Electric cars are a distraction. But ethanol burns my blood more than anything else.

We need some innovations, because all these stop-gap solutions piss me off. We might as well just slap huge regulations on the auto industry so we're all driving smart cars and SUVs become illegal. I'd prefer that to all this pseudo-green BS.

Yes, someone just needs to invent the perpetual motion machine, Then everything will be better!

Electric cars are the way to go because in the end, a big innovation is going to come in big power plants, not in the every day car creation.

I for one think that electric cars are a good idea if we can get them to fly. They are good because they aren't limited to one form of power production. Perhaps we discover how to get fusion to work on a grand scale, then our cars are already fit to run on fusion power. It just makes sense.

I do agree though, Ethanol is the biggest green crock on the market. They use the worst plant on the face of the planet (corn) to produce an inefficient fuel that ruins current engines. Yeah green!

As for the capacitor question, danger isn't the issue, capacitance and leakage is. Some supposed super capacitors approach the energy storage density of a NiCd battery but that just won't do in the long run.

One possible solution is using carbon-nanotubes as our power storage, IIRC they have some pretty good energy storage capabilities, they are light weight, and carbon is found everywhere. So why not make the entire frame of the car a giant battery?

 

[lxskllr]

If I could afford it, I'd buy an all electric car today. 90% of my driving needs fall well within the cruising range of current electrics. I'd save a fortune over the lifetime of the car.

 

[frostedflakes]

As far as capacitors go, check out EEStor. Unfortunately it seems like they keep on pushing it back, currently nothing but vaporware. If they deliver, though, it would be a boon for the EV market.

 

[Zolty]

It's easier to filter and control coal pollution than to have a bunch of engines that aren't maintained properly.

 

[GeneValgene]

Originally posted by: Xylitol
We're just gonna have to burn more coal to fuel the amount of energy needed by these electric cars... we're gonna be making pollution either way

this is why

 

[sutahz]

Because it's different and celbs have said they're gud.

However, power plants convert fossil fuels into energy w/ a lot more efficenty then the engine converts fuel into propulsion. DC motors are a lot more efficient then internal combusion motors.

I havent heard the numbers, but I'm fairly certain that power plant+DC motor > internal combustion motor by a good degree. Internal combusion is like 8% efficient.