<< Who else wants to get ordered around like a slave by some low-intelligence meathead ? >>
I must have got ripped off. I mean that's why I joined and after almost 18 years thats never happened to me once. I must be in the wrong military. Moron
<< Who else wants to get ordered around like a slave by some low-intelligence meathead ? >>
I must have got ripped off. I mean that's why I joined and after almost 18 years thats never happened to me once. I must be in the wrong military. Moron
<< I must have got ripped off. I mean that's why I joined and after almost 18 years thats never happened to me once. I must be in the wrong military. Moron >>
Give me a break. You don't join the army because you have great leadership skills and want to excel in life. You don't join the army because you are individualistic and have a creative mind. Think about it.
-khtm-
Wait wait... so all you have to do is claim CO and you can get discharged?
What the hell was Klinger doing trying to get an insanity discharge then?
What the hell was Klinger doing trying to get an insanity discharge then?
From my personal experience, I've noticed that a large majority of the Army National Guard are dumbass idiots. Most are college kids that dont give a crap about the country, just need money. Most of the rest are stuck-up bastard officers or overweight moronic slobs.
But in defense of these people, the Nat. Guard (at least in Connecticut) does advertise itself specifically as a way to pay for college, and specifically recruits college and high schoolers because they are easy to recruit, thats why they end up with so many people that are uck ups.
But in defense of these people, the Nat. Guard (at least in Connecticut) does advertise itself specifically as a way to pay for college, and specifically recruits college and high schoolers because they are easy to recruit, thats why they end up with so many people that are uck ups.
<< Give me a break. You don't join the army because you have great leadership skills and want to excel in life. You don't join the army because you are individualistic and have a creative mind. Think about it. >>
There's a lot of people who have their lives on a certain track for whom I would consider it senseless to join the military.
For countless others, the military is an opportunity to serve your country, follow in the footsteps of great people, learn discipline and career skills in a far different atmosphere than the typical academic setting, and believe you me, when it comes to stupidity, the average tenured university professor can give even the screwiest officers a run for their money.
It's not for you. Fine. Don't join.
It's not for me either, that's why I'm not in it.
Then again, college isn't right for a lot of people.
One of my greatest mentors was Master Sergeant Henry Frasier. Retired from the army and now serving in the Nat'l Guard Reserve. Here's a guy from a poor family with no college education who was one of the best managers I've known. OTOH, I've dealt with so many college grads who have jack skills and they wave their degree around like it's some kind of entitlement.
There's more than one way to success in life. The one that you follow isn't the only one or the right one.
The bottom line here is if you aren't willing to go into combat, shoot missiles, drop bombs, etc. don't join.
Bingo. My feelings exactly. I would, however, add an additional caveat -- if you do not AGREE with the idea of going into combat, shooting missiles, or dropping bombs, then don't join. I've also met people (all women, incidentally) who joined the military, were going to serve in decidedly non-combat jobs like Personnel or Nursing, but also didn't agree with military action. THAT pissed me off as well. Take that rank off of your shoulder and get out of my service -- it's an insult to those who actually believed in the oath they swore.
Who else wants to get ordered around like a slave by some low-intelligence meathead ?
Good thing I'm not in the civilian world where moronic @ssholes like yourself are allowed free access to mass communication devices. Is that the extent of your ignorance, or have we yet to plumb the depths?
Bingo. My feelings exactly. I would, however, add an additional caveat -- if you do not AGREE with the idea of going into combat, shooting missiles, or dropping bombs, then don't join. I've also met people (all women, incidentally) who joined the military, were going to serve in decidedly non-combat jobs like Personnel or Nursing, but also didn't agree with military action. THAT pissed me off as well. Take that rank off of your shoulder and get out of my service -- it's an insult to those who actually believed in the oath they swore.
Who else wants to get ordered around like a slave by some low-intelligence meathead ?
Good thing I'm not in the civilian world where moronic @ssholes like yourself are allowed free access to mass communication devices. Is that the extent of your ignorance, or have we yet to plumb the depths?
unxpurg8d
Golden Member
- Apr 7, 2000
- 1,373
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AndrewR, I've noticed that the civilian world is NOT the only place that "moronic @ssholes" are allowed access to "mass communication devices".
Funny, but I thought that free speech, no matter how moronic, was a basic right and therefore you'd be all for it.
Sigh.
("Get out of my service". Ummmm....okay. Last time I checked you were a Navy Reservist lawyer or something of the sort????????????? NOT Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces? But hey, I've been away awhile.... who knows.
) 
glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
- 25,383
- 1,013
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<< Give me a break. You don't join the army because you have great leadership skills and want to excel in life. You don't join the army because you are individualistic and have a creative mind. Think about it. >>
Okay, i'll think about it.... <pondering> .... okay, i'm done thinking. I've reached the conclusion that you obviously didn't think before you posted this, otherwise you'd realize how breathtakingly arrogant and condescending (not to mention incredibly shallow) it makes you if you honestly believe it. Think about that.
Isn't the ULTIMATE GOAL of a soldier is to defend PEACE and JUSTICE? I don't see what the conflict is here. If someone who joined to just "shoot people", then they should repeat 3rd grade.
Having said that, Often Peace have to be, and worthily be, fought for:
"To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace" - George Washington
I am a Pacifist. I am against all wars that are meaningless. However, the price for Peace is sometimes blood.
"As human beings we must always pause, reflect and resist the temptation to use force and the practice of an eye for an eye. However, there are times, when the use of force is legitimate and necessary. In the face of evil, invocation of false pacifism leads to inaction and betrayal of the victims of oppression." --José Ramos-Horta, East Timor, Nobel Peace Laureate, 1996
"I must listen to the victims. The victims say, 'Don't be indifferent. If there had not been action in World War II, I would not be here. There must be a limit to silence. So, therefore, it is with some measure of agony, that I say, you can not allow terrorists to prevail."
-Elie Wiesel 1986 Nobel Peace Prize Laureate
In the face of evil, invocation of false pacifism leads to inaction and betrayal of the victims of oppression
IMO, this is the reason why some people hate Americans. Many times, we don't fight wars for the right reasons.
Having said that, Often Peace have to be, and worthily be, fought for:
"To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace" - George Washington
I am a Pacifist. I am against all wars that are meaningless. However, the price for Peace is sometimes blood.
"As human beings we must always pause, reflect and resist the temptation to use force and the practice of an eye for an eye. However, there are times, when the use of force is legitimate and necessary. In the face of evil, invocation of false pacifism leads to inaction and betrayal of the victims of oppression." --José Ramos-Horta, East Timor, Nobel Peace Laureate, 1996
"I must listen to the victims. The victims say, 'Don't be indifferent. If there had not been action in World War II, I would not be here. There must be a limit to silence. So, therefore, it is with some measure of agony, that I say, you can not allow terrorists to prevail."
-Elie Wiesel 1986 Nobel Peace Prize Laureate
In the face of evil, invocation of false pacifism leads to inaction and betrayal of the victims of oppression
IMO, this is the reason why some people hate Americans. Many times, we don't fight wars for the right reasons.
BULL! When units were called up to Desert Shield/Storm there were several instances where some refused to serve.
The Louisiana National Guard comes to mind. Not all Guard/Reserves are like that though.
The Louisiana National Guard comes to mind. Not all Guard/Reserves are like that though.
unxpurg8d
Golden Member
- Apr 7, 2000
- 1,373
- 0
- 71
Whew, owe AndrewR an apology - of sorts. Had to do a LOT of reading back to remember that he went into the Air Force after the Navy denied him a commission due to the military drawdown back in the dark ages closing the slots. My apologies... old age is creeping up on my memory.
maybe your confusing pacifism in all cases with limited pacifism where the only justified use of force is in direct defense of your country kinda like the bush not in favor of nation building thing.
now if your country started becoming expansionist and started fighting wars for land..or a better example.. vietnam(new presidential tapes released show that even the pres didn't think we could win, yet sent our military over to die), would you be a CO=coward for objecting?
kinda like the bush not in favor of nation building thing. now if your country started becoming expansionist and started fighting wars for land..or a better example.. vietnam(new presidential tapes released show that even the pres didn't think we could win, yet sent our military over to die), would you be a CO=coward for objecting?
I am in the Military and have been in for the past 16 almost 17 years. I have been in the infantry, 3rd Reconnaissance
Battalion, Instructor duty and finally back in the infantry. I have been in combat twice both times with great Infantry Battalions,
and great leadership from the officer ranks and the enlisted.
I do not understand what you are talking about.You are the Airforce.You fly planes from above the enemy.You never see the faces
nor the damage.
I am a Marine, we train to fight day in and day out.We take the little momas boys and develope them into "Mean Muther F_ckers with an M16".
I have had a few who tried to claim that lame excuse so they would not have to go.While many of us were doing all we could to get the chance.
I have been in Somalia with a weak leader who would not pulll the trigger when the time called for it.I did not hesitate nor freeze, I drew and
fired then turned on the weak leader and presuaded him to go back to the ship.
It is fools like this guy you are talking about and the one I had who get people killed.
I may not be the best leader, but I am far from the worst.My job is simple, to take young boys and in a short time make them military men.
Men who will put it all on the line for their "GOD, COUNTRY CORPS and FamilyIf I have to take them into harms way, we all go in together
I lead them from the front, and most importantly "We all come out TOGETHER"
MAN THIS burns me up!!!!!!!! :| :| :| :| :| :|
My fellow brother in arms, are over there in the desert away from there loved ones, wives, children and friends.Fighting for OUR country.
They do not have any comforts of home, their pack so heavy that they themselves cannot lift them alone.Yet we have some fool here on our soil
not wanting to firht for what we lost as a counrty.
Yes SIR I would love to meet this guy friend of yours.
I do not care what rank he is nor who he thinks he is...............................................
Battalion, Instructor duty and finally back in the infantry. I have been in combat twice both times with great Infantry Battalions,
and great leadership from the officer ranks and the enlisted.
I do not understand what you are talking about.You are the Airforce.You fly planes from above the enemy.You never see the faces
nor the damage.
I am a Marine, we train to fight day in and day out.We take the little momas boys and develope them into "Mean Muther F_ckers with an M16".
I have had a few who tried to claim that lame excuse so they would not have to go.While many of us were doing all we could to get the chance.
I have been in Somalia with a weak leader who would not pulll the trigger when the time called for it.I did not hesitate nor freeze, I drew and
fired then turned on the weak leader and presuaded him to go back to the ship.
It is fools like this guy you are talking about and the one I had who get people killed.
I may not be the best leader, but I am far from the worst.My job is simple, to take young boys and in a short time make them military men.
Men who will put it all on the line for their "GOD, COUNTRY CORPS and FamilyIf I have to take them into harms way, we all go in together
I lead them from the front, and most importantly "We all come out TOGETHER"
MAN THIS burns me up!!!!!!!! :| :| :| :| :| :|
My fellow brother in arms, are over there in the desert away from there loved ones, wives, children and friends.Fighting for OUR country.
They do not have any comforts of home, their pack so heavy that they themselves cannot lift them alone.Yet we have some fool here on our soil
not wanting to firht for what we lost as a counrty.
Yes SIR I would love to meet this guy friend of yours.
I do not care what rank he is nor who he thinks he is...............................................
<< maybe your confusing pacifism in all cases with limited pacifism where the only justified use of force is in direct defense of your country kinda like the bush not in favor of nation building thing. >>
The only thing confusing here is your statement. I don't know how we made the jump from pacifism to nation building. I'm not very smart, please explain it better/different.
<< now if your country started becoming expansionist and started fighting wars for land..or a better example.. vietnam(new presidential tapes released show that even the pres didn't think we could win, yet sent our military over to die), would you be a CO=coward for objecting? >>
As it pertains to my previous posts, yes. If you're in the military and somebody says it's time to go and you say "Wait a minute,I'm a Concientious Objector" then yes I think you're just being a coward. You take an oath, you draw the pay, when it's time to go, you go.
<< As it pertains to my previous posts, yes. If you're in the military and somebody says it's time to go and you say "Wait a minute,I'm a Concientious Objector" then yes I think you're just being a coward. You take an oath, you draw the pay, when it's time to go, you go. >>
I agree with you up to this point. The USMC oath, says, for example
"I do solemnly swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the Offices appointed over me, according to the regulations and the uniform code of military justice, so help me God."
Now, while it does specifically say to obey the orders of your superiors, however I believe the code of military justice is where it also says that if your superiors are off their cabooses, that it's your business to not obey. If your superior said to line up all the Jews and start killing them, you'd get in a lot of trouble later on.
Likewise, if you don't agree with the cause, or if you feel that to obey your superiors would NOT be supporting or defending the constitution, why would you stay? I'd rather give a non-conscript "conscientious objector" an out. What good is he along side you in a firefight? I'm no soldier, but I think going into combat, I'd want to know for certain that the guys with me are 100% into it and not going turn tail the second things get tough.
As for giving them a dishonorable discharge, I think that's a bit much. Why screw the rest of their life simply b/c they were honest enough to say "Look, I don't agree with this, and I want to leave." It's one thing to start a mutiny. It's another thing to be straight up and get the hell out before you get someone else killed.
As it pertains to my previous posts, yes. If you're in the military and somebody says it's time to go and you say "Wait a minute,I'm a Concientious Objector" then yes I think you're just being a coward. You take an oath, you draw the pay, when it's time to go, you go.
well an example i could think of would be a nazi soldier that eventually sees that what he is doing is wrong. is he a coward?
well an example i could think of would be a nazi soldier that eventually sees that what he is doing is wrong. is he a coward?
<< Good thing I'm not in the civilian world where moronic @ssholes like yourself are allowed free access to mass communication devices. Is that the extent of your ignorance, or have we yet to plumb the depths? >>
I could probably go lower.
I appologize if my comments seem insulting, but I just have a lack of respect for people who think joining the army is the ultimate display of love for your country and that all others should respect that. Perhaps it's because I'm from a country that has little faith in its army and more faith in the fact that no other countries have a reason to attack it. Aggresive, "I've got a bigger bomb than you" power is basically what the US is all about, and most citizens are all for it.
Don't get me wrong, I think it takes a lot courage to fight in a war, I just don't think that deserves to be placed on a pedestal above other careers. And yes, I have friends in the Canadian Military who basically sum up my "meathead" comment. One guy in particular gets amusement out of getting wasted and heat butting trees. Go figure why he joined the military.
BTW, don't bother saying I have no idea what I'm talking about. My father is an ex American citizen and fought in the Vietnam War and my grandfathers were in WWII. I have heard many a story about what goes on in the army, and I hardly doubt the type of individual has changed much in 30 years.
<< EDIT: khtm, have you ever joined the military? If not, how can you presume to make a blanket statement about what motivates people to join the military... and if so, what was YOUR motivation? >>
Read my above comments.
<< Very, very well said, Jzero. >>
I agree. My previous posts might not indicate this, but I do.
<< Okay, i'll think about it.... <pondering> .... okay, i'm done thinking. I've reached the conclusion that you obviously didn't think before you posted this, otherwise you'd realize how breathtakingly arrogant and condescending (not to mention incredibly shallow) it makes you if you honestly believe it. Think about that. >>
Yep, I'm shallow
And you have a purely neutral opinion on this topic, right? Geez, I basically insulted your job, I've course you're going to take offense - I would too! Grunt03,
Thanks for helping to clarify my original statement.
<< Who else wants to get ordered around like a slave by some low-intelligence meathead ? >>
<< I must have got ripped off. I mean that's why I joined and after almost 18 years thats never happened to me once. I must be in the wrong military. Moron >>
Well I tell you. I was in the Marine Corps in the 70's and I worked under a few guy's that would make a gerbil look like Steven Hawkins.
But then maybe that was just the Corps.......
Jzero has it EXACTLY right. There's a difference between being a pacifist/CO and being capable of independant thought. I joined the Navy at the end of Desert Storm. I have NO problem fighting or being willing to kill for a good cause. I had to sit and think long and hard about joining the military though. I wasn't sure if I could honestly take the oath, knowing that I disagree with so much of our governments actions. What I realized after much thought and much study, was exactly what Jzero said so well.
The military is about defending the CONSTITUTION and what it stands for and means...it is NOT about blindly following orders, nor supporting capitalism, nor doing anything which might jeopardize the nation described in our founding documents. Hence, if the government undertakes an action I feel is against the spirit of the Constitution it is my duty to refuse to participate. I would, in fact, be defending the Constitution against a domestic enemy (in such a case it would be the President and any who supported the action). With that understanding of the oath I took I was able to enlist, serve two years, and receive an honorable discharge, arguing with my superiors and opposing the government the whole time.
So, while I agree that signing up and then claiming CO out of cowardice is wrong...I support anyone who chooses not to directly participate in an action they feel harms America.
The military is about defending the CONSTITUTION and what it stands for and means...it is NOT about blindly following orders, nor supporting capitalism, nor doing anything which might jeopardize the nation described in our founding documents. Hence, if the government undertakes an action I feel is against the spirit of the Constitution it is my duty to refuse to participate. I would, in fact, be defending the Constitution against a domestic enemy (in such a case it would be the President and any who supported the action). With that understanding of the oath I took I was able to enlist, serve two years, and receive an honorable discharge, arguing with my superiors and opposing the government the whole time.
So, while I agree that signing up and then claiming CO out of cowardice is wrong...I support anyone who chooses not to directly participate in an action they feel harms America.
<< Wait wait... so all you have to do is claim CO and you can get discharged?
What the hell was Klinger doing trying to get an insanity discharge then? >>
during the korean war conscription was still in affect (effect?) Thus you didn't leave unless you were dead, wounded, gay, or insane.
I'm a quasi-pacifist. I will not kill someone else, however I will bend my rule only to defend myself. Otherwise I would prefer to enter a branch of the military such as the med corps. better yet, someone has to run the farms... being that i'm a farm boy, that's probably what I would choose first.
We are all COs in one instance. We have met the enemy and they are us.
There is only one reason people don't know themselves. The truth is terrifying.
Anybody know who said, "I fought in the Great War" meaning the war with self?
There is only one reason people don't know themselves. The truth is terrifying.
Anybody know who said, "I fought in the Great War" meaning the war with self?
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