Why do i5's/i7's come with built in graphics?

[lilrayray69]

I've wondered this for a while, sorry if there's already a thread for it

But I just don't get why even the high end i7's come with Intel's integrated HD graphics. Even the new $350 4770k Haswell does.

Surely almost everyone who's going to drop $350 on a CPU has a dedicated GPU. Does the iGPU still have any function if theres a dedicated GPU? Like does it offload some work to the iGPU to increase overall performance?

Seems like it would make more sense performance wise to dedicate the entire chip to the CPU. I know Intel is already crushing AMD in performance, beating out their best CPUs that don't even have iGPUs...I mean their quad-core 3.5ghz CPU beats out a 6-8 core 4+ghz AMD chip...but why include it at all? Or why not have some with and some without?

 

[TakeNoPrisoners]

They try to justify it by having quick sync which uses the iGPU to help encode video.

In my opinion it would be better if they used that extra die space to put in couple more CPU cores and be able to encode faster in all programs. Not just those that support quick sync.

If you look at this picture it is pretty easy to see that the GPU takes up quite a bit of space. It wouldn't increase the die size at all if they removed the iGPU, increased L3 cache, and put a couple more cores in. It would sure be a lot more useful, but since they are a mobile CPU company now it will never happen. Desktops just are not important to Intel. It has gotten so bad now that there is no reason to upgrade from a SB to Ivy on the desktop unless you like wasting money.

 

[Torn Mind]

Gamers aren't the only people in the world who buys i7s. There are people who need CPU power but not much GPU power, such as an Exchange Server box or streaming box. I know one organization who has two Dells with 3770 CPUs but no discrete card that uses those i7 machines for those two purposes.

And of course, virtual machines don't need much GPU, but multiple VMs dig an i7...

 

[lilrayray69]

Well I figured servers would opt for Xeons, but I'm sure there are those that use i7s...

I see they do have those i7 extremes, which are still Sandy Bridge-E, they don't have iGPUs but they're $1,000.

 

[Cerb]

I've wondered this for a while, sorry if there's already a thread for it

But I just don't get why even the high end i7's come with Intel's integrated HD graphics. Even the new $350 4770k Haswell does.

Surely almost everyone who's going to drop $350 on a CPU has a dedicated GPU.

Nope. And, it's really that simple. Not everyone plays games or runs content creation software (or, just does it as a hobby, so it's not worth the video card cost to them), and without either of those, you don't need more than the basic of IGPs. And, some content creation software will be just as good with IGP, too, or so close as to not be worth it (2D or civil AutoCAD, FI).

Re: TakeNoPrisoners: but they are after profit, first and foremost. If they were going to not design in the IGP at all, they would just make the CPU smaller, and still only offer more cores on the workstation/server socket.

 

[Torn Mind]

Also, should a discrete card die, the user will suffer downtime and have to deal with customer service. The less computer literates WILL blame the OEM who sold it, which then hurts sales. Better to just have some sort of IGP then to risk that. Plus, it does save people money because they don't have to get a discrete card if they don't need one.

 

[jpiniero]

The server models don't have GPUs because it would be a waste of space for one of the processors since (I believe) most of the 'Extreme' Xeon sales are the dual processor models. Maybe that will change if compute on servers takes off.

 

[lilrayray69]

What happened to motherboards coming with onboard graphics? I remember that used to be pretty common. Why'd it change from motherboard to CPU?

 

[Torn Mind]

Well I figured servers would opt for Xeons, but I'm sure there are those that use i7s...

I see they do have those i7 extremes, which are still Sandy Bridge-E, they don't have iGPUs but they're $1,000.

Not every "corporate" customer, be they non-profit or for-profit, needs an LGA 2011 server complete with ECC RAM, etc. What they can do without, is needlessly running up the electricity bill and loss of productivity due to downtime because that 20 dollar GPU they bought just suddenly broke.

Stuff like high-frequency trading and virtual machines probably could use an i7 but run just fine on an IGP.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Intel's high end doesn't come with a iGPU, only mainstream and below.

 

[BrightCandle]

The choice of more cores comes with 2011, there is no iGPU there and you get more cores as the trade off.

 

[lilrayray69]

Intel's high end doesn't come with a iGPU, only mainstream and below.

So, only those i7 extremes? Why haven't they updated those in a long time?

So there are only 2 high end CPUs out there, both $1,000+? To me, a 4770k would be high end.

 

[Torn Mind]

What happened to motherboards coming with onboard graphics? I remember that used to be pretty common. Why'd it change from motherboard to CPU?

Because it occupied space on the board that could have been used for something else and it cost money to make and acquire those chips.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

So, only those i7 extremes? Why haven't they updated those in a long time?

So there are only 2 high end CPUs out there, both $1,000+? To me, a 4770k would be high end.

No, they have chips designed without iGPU's currently at the $300, $570, and $1k. The latter two of course are hex cores.

 

[Cerb]

What happened to motherboards coming with onboard graphics? I remember that used to be pretty common. Why'd it change from motherboard to CPU?

The memory controller got put on the CPU, so it's easier to just have the IGP there, than to have the IGP talk to the CPU to access memory all the time. They can also almost always spare some die space, as long as it's got something simpler/slower than CPU cores.

So, only those i7 extremes? Why haven't they updated those in a long time?

Because they're harder to make and sell. You're dealing with an overlap of products between vastly different markets. Real server and workstation users worry about occasional flipped bits happening without them knowing. Their needs and worries are very different than yours, and the costs of the CPUs, even at $1k+, are small, relative to the rest of their budgets, so they don't get the sticker shock you do, either.

Those 2011 i7 chips are Xeons with different features enabled/disabled. Intel's LGA2011 daily bread comes from users that need the Xeon features to be able to sleep at night.

Also, there's the i5-3350P, and all Xeon E3 models ending in 0, lacking IGP (but IGP exists on the die, for them).

So there are only 2 high end CPUs out there, both $1,000+? To me, a 4770k would be high end.

A 4770K is a desktop CPU, with ECC disabled. Some workstation users do w/o ECC, and there is a content creation and gamer market for workstation parts, but by and large, the non-Xeon parts on 2011 are extra, and there because there are buyers. The main users of that socket wouldn't touch your desktop chip with a 10-foot pole, and the reasons have nothing to do with it's processing performance.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I've wondered this for a while, sorry if there's already a thread for it

But I just don't get why even the high end i7's come with Intel's integrated HD graphics. Even the new $350 4770k Haswell does.

Surely almost everyone who's going to drop $350 on a CPU has a dedicated GPU. Does the iGPU still have any function if theres a dedicated GPU? Like does it offload some work to the iGPU to increase overall performance?

Seems like it would make more sense performance wise to dedicate the entire chip to the CPU. I know Intel is already crushing AMD in performance, beating out their best CPUs that don't even have iGPUs...I mean their quad-core 3.5ghz CPU beats out a 6-8 core 4+ghz AMD chip...but why include it at all? Or why not have some with and some without?

In short its cheaper to make all (LGA11xx) chips with IGP than it is to make 2 seperate models.

Also the IGP area helps with cooling as dark silicon or low active silicon.

Plus you can use the IGP can be used with a discrete card for more monitors and as mentioned, Quicksync.

 

[lilrayray69]

Ohhh I didn't even realize the i7 extremes and the other non-iGPUs were on the 2011 socket.

Thanks for all the info, I think I get it

 

[max347]

For a long time I used my 2600k then 3770k without a graphics card. All I was doing was video encoding, so I needed the power there, but no gpu. I could even play SC2 when I wanted to.