Why do I have to give up explicit Constitutional rights?

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Todd33
For people like Train, you have to be personally affected by acts before you start to care. When was I last attacked by a terrorist? Never, hence zero of my tax money should go to HLS, and definitely none should go to Iraq (which has zero to do with anything security related). Right?

Did I say personally?

And WHICH rights has SOMEONE had violated, for which I am supposed to care about?

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Train
Who's invading houses without warrants? Who is taking your papers or effects?

How would we ever know? Under the Patriot act, all sorts of surveillance and information-gathering can take place without notifying the subject.

Oh, so before the P.A. the FBI just called up mr Sleeper cell and said "Hi just calling to inform you we are tapiing your phone, kthnx bye"

And anyone contacted by the FBI in order to gather information about you is forbidden, under penalty of law, from revealing that contact.

And I'm not even addressing the data warehouses being filled to overflowing with information on innocent private citizens,

You mean the same information the credit card companies, your utilities, banks, and damn near everyone BUT the govt has been gathering for decades?

information that is being collected, freely exchanged among governmental agencies, and NOT discarded even after it's determined that the subject has no relationship whatsoever to terrorism.

What we don't know can't hurt us, right?

No, what can't hurt you, can't hurt you.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Todd33
For people like Train, you have to be personally affected by acts before you start to care. When was I last attacked by a terrorist? Never, hence zero of my tax money should go to HLS, and definitely none should go to Iraq (which has zero to do with anything security related). Right?

Did I say personally?

And WHICH rights has SOMEONE had violated, for which I am supposed to care about?

Your 2nd amendment rights, the security to know that you will be free from unwarranted search and seizure..

Who's being searched and seized without a warrant?!!?!?!

What do you not get? Thousands of people are. Keep up with the news. Bush admitted to spying on Americans without warrant. If you don't want to argue substance, don't waste people's time here.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Todd33
For people like Train, you have to be personally affected by acts before you start to care. When was I last attacked by a terrorist? Never, hence zero of my tax money should go to HLS, and definitely none should go to Iraq (which has zero to do with anything security related). Right?

Did I say personally?

And WHICH rights has SOMEONE had violated, for which I am supposed to care about?

Your 2nd amendment rights, the security to know that you will be free from unwarranted search and seizure..

Electronic survallence has been defined as "search and seizure" by the courts. If I have to connect the dots for you to the current news about the NSA.. stop playing dumb.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Todd33
For people like Train, you have to be personally affected by acts before you start to care. When was I last attacked by a terrorist? Never, hence zero of my tax money should go to HLS, and definitely none should go to Iraq (which has zero to do with anything security related). Right?

Did I say personally?

And WHICH rights has SOMEONE had violated, for which I am supposed to care about?

Your 2nd amendment rights, the security to know that you will be free from unwarranted search and seizure..

Who's being searched and seized without a warrant?!!?!?!

What do you not get? Thousands of people are. Keep up with the news. Bush admitted to spying on Americans without warrant. If you don't want to argue substance, don't waste people's time here.

Let's repeat that again for train...

Bush admitted to spying on Americans without warrant.
Bush admitted to spying on Americans without warrant.
Bush admitted to spying on Americans without warrant.

This violates our 2nd amendment rights as AMERICANS.

 

[Train]

Phone taps across international lines are not protected. Sorry.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Genx87
What an absurd stance to take. I am sure in WWII your chances of being locked up in a Nazi concentration camp within the United States was even more far flung than these statistics. Should we base our national security on statistic comparisons?

And which stat does it need to beat? The dog one or the bee one before we decide to act on it?

People wonder why the left isnt taken seriously anymore.
I think you should send this off to Howard Dean so he can blab about this on "Meet the Depressed". Nothing would bring a smile to my face more.

What an absurd stance to take. It's amazing that some would rather live in a police state out of a fear that does not have any better chance than winning a lottery.

Do you believe that, if you were alive during WWII, that you would have rather had curfews enacted, the continued detention centers for Japanese Americans, the government with the "legal" authority to enter into your home at any given time to search through your correspondence to see if you might have had contact with someone of German or Japanese decent?

At what level of infinate chance does it have to reach before you feel safe again?

I think that you should write Karl Rove and tell him that you believe that the Republican leadership is doing too little to protect you and that they need to strip away more rights so that they can prove, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that they truly are tough and out to protect us. :disgust:

Good job not answering my question.

Ok. I'll play along. Allow me to address each of your questions.

1. Should we base our national security on statistic comparisons? We already do this.
2. And which stat does it need to beat? The dog one or the bee one before we decide to act on it? Uhhh....I would say that we need to, at the very least, come in under winning the freaking powerball!!

There. I have answered your questions. Please return the favor....mmkay?

That is great, from now on if a threat doesnt match the odds of winning a powerball we can simply stick our head in the sand and pretend it doesnt exist.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: OrByte
I think those statistics help clarify that even though we hear about it every day and the drum beat by this administration has pummeled us with the message that terrorists want to destroy us, that the chances of such an event are still remote. It wouldn't hurt us to stop living in fear of these terrorists.

Who's living in fear? take a look at who is posting all the doomsday threads every day in this forum. Certainly not bush supporters


EDIT: And what rights exactly, have you given up?

Exactly so. The Bush people are ideological dreamers and idealists. They believe they will be safe if they give up their freedoms to people just like them. Only bad people have to fear the loss of freedom. A frog is boiled by raising the temperature of his cooking pot slowly one degree at a time. And Rome was saved by the cackling of her faithful geese.

You havent answered the question either..

What freedoms have YOU given up?

I have given up the right to feel secure in my own home (as the constitution dictates that I should) from fear/worries about UNWARRANTED (indirect contridiction to the constitution) invasions into my privacy from an administration that has openly admitted that they have and will continue to do.

Once again, because you seem to have forgotten where to find it yourself.......

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

These calls originated from outside the US, a slightly different set of circumstances than what the founding fathers envisioned, I am sure.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Train
Phone taps across international lines are not protected. Sorry.

Hahaha. I think we know who we are dealing with now... : ). Go away troll. I am sure you could find attention elsewhere.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Genx87
And which stat does it need to beat?

Oh, how about the odds that you will at least once during the rest of your life write a sentence that demonstrates the existence of a brain stem?

Oh look what happens when one cant formulate and original thought.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Nice dodge. How about you answer my questions as I did yours?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Todd33
For people like Train, you have to be personally affected by acts before you start to care. When was I last attacked by a terrorist? Never, hence zero of my tax money should go to HLS, and definitely none should go to Iraq (which has zero to do with anything security related). Right?

I have never been on welfare and dont use SS.
Ill let you figure out the rest.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: OrByte
I think those statistics help clarify that even though we hear about it every day and the drum beat by this administration has pummeled us with the message that terrorists want to destroy us, that the chances of such an event are still remote. It wouldn't hurt us to stop living in fear of these terrorists.

Who's living in fear? take a look at who is posting all the doomsday threads every day in this forum. Certainly not bush supporters


EDIT: And what rights exactly, have you given up?

Exactly so. The Bush people are ideological dreamers and idealists. They believe they will be safe if they give up their freedoms to people just like them. Only bad people have to fear the loss of freedom. A frog is boiled by raising the temperature of his cooking pot slowly one degree at a time. And Rome was saved by the cackling of her faithful geese.

You havent answered the question either..

What freedoms have YOU given up?

I have given up the right to feel secure in my own home (as the constitution dictates that I should) from fear/worries about UNWARRANTED (indirect contridiction to the constitution) invasions into my privacy from an administration that has openly admitted that they have and will continue to do.

Once again, because you seem to have forgotten where to find it yourself.......

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

These calls originated from outside the US, a slightly different set of circumstances than what the founding fathers envisioned, I am sure.

What's the use in trying to dodge an issue already established? The FISA court is there for a reason. You could pretend all you'd like...

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Train
Phone taps across international lines are not protected. Sorry.

Hahaha. I think we know who we are dealing with now... : ). Go away troll. I am sure you could find attention elsewhere.

I am trolling for stating a fact? Or for standing against the liberal mob?

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Train
Phone taps across international lines are not protected. Sorry.

Hahaha. I think we know who we are dealing with now... : ). Go away troll. I am sure you could find attention elsewhere.

I am trolling for stating a fact? Or for standing against the liberal mob?

Wow.. thats all I can say. Wow.

 

[shadow9d9]

Let's just repeat something for all the trolls trying to steer the topic off course.

The OP is referring to DOMESTIC wiretapping, NOT international...

"President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials."

 

[Pens1566]

The calls don't have to originate outside the country, could be someone here calling Tehran. It involves US lines, its domestic. Seems exactly like what the FISA court was set up for.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Train
Phone taps across international lines are not protected. Sorry.

Hahaha. I think we know who we are dealing with now... : ). Go away troll. I am sure you could find attention elsewhere.

I am trolling for stating a fact? Or for standing against the liberal mob?

you are the definition of a Troll. You completely ignore posts of substance and concentrate your meager thoughts on those posts that are inciteful in an atempt to flame.

you completely ignored my posts and others posts that offer a thoughtful response to your pitiful attempts at conducting a debate.

go away.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Train
Phone taps across international lines are not protected. Sorry.

Hahaha. I think we know who we are dealing with now... : ). Go away troll. I am sure you could find attention elsewhere.

I am trolling for stating a fact? Or for standing against the liberal mob?

you are the definition of a Troll. You completely ignore posts of substance and concentrate your meager thoughts on those posts that are inciteful in an atempt to flame.

you completely ignored my posts and others posts that offer a thoughtful response to your pitiful attempts at conducting a debate.

go away.

Yet when people ignore my questions, its ok?

 

[shadow9d9]

What is really disgusting here is that 2 people actually have the audacity to try to IGNORE something already established... Bush came out and admitted to domestic spying without a warrant! If people are so ignorant and afraid to admit what is ALREADY KNOWN, how can anyone actually debate real issues affecting the country? Burying your head in the sand is not the answer.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Train
Phone taps across international lines are not protected. Sorry.

Hahaha. I think we know who we are dealing with now... : ). Go away troll. I am sure you could find attention elsewhere.

I am trolling for stating a fact? Or for standing against the liberal mob?

you are the definition of a Troll. You completely ignore posts of substance and concentrate your meager thoughts on those posts that are inciteful in an atempt to flame.

you completely ignored my posts and others posts that offer a thoughtful response to your pitiful attempts at conducting a debate.

go away.

Yet when people ignore my questions, its ok?

People have answered your "questions". You are trying to derail the topic and are trying to argue semantics to prove that a well known fact doesn;t exist. This is trolling.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Train
Phone taps across international lines are not protected. Sorry.

Hahaha. I think we know who we are dealing with now... : ). Go away troll. I am sure you could find attention elsewhere.

I am trolling for stating a fact? Or for standing against the liberal mob?

you are the definition of a Troll. You completely ignore posts of substance and concentrate your meager thoughts on those posts that are inciteful in an atempt to flame.

you completely ignored my posts and others posts that offer a thoughtful response to your pitiful attempts at conducting a debate.

go away.

Yet when people ignore my questions, its ok?

I answered your questions, and you ignore that.

go away!

 

[Pens1566]

Maybe if we discuss the details of WWII he'll go away.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Todd33
For people like Train, you have to be personally affected by acts before you start to care. When was I last attacked by a terrorist? Never, hence zero of my tax money should go to HLS, and definitely none should go to Iraq (which has zero to do with anything security related). Right?

I have never been on welfare and dont use SS.
Ill let you figure out the rest.

That was my point genus. Miss the point much?

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: Pens1566
Maybe if we discuss the details of WWII he'll go away.

Or youll call your mommy to lock the thread before I can respond.