Why do conservatives...

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,247
207
106
want the US to be a theocracy?

They claim the US was founded by Christians for Christians.
They get angry about reverting the last change to the Pledge.
They get off on praying during legislative sessions, etc.
They consistently legislate and regulate their morality into the system (gay rights, abortions, etc).
Some will even go so far as to argue that the First Amendment only applies to a State sponsored Church, so we actually can pass explicitly religious laws/policies.

I feel like I had a few more examples, but I'm sure you get the idea. So, what's the deal?
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
want the US to be a theocracy?

They claim the US was founded by Christians for Christians.
They get angry about reverting the last change to the Pledge.
They get off on praying during legislative sessions, etc.
They consistently legislate and regulate their morality into the system (gay rights, abortions, etc).
Some will even go so far as to argue that the First Amendment only applies to a State sponsored Church, so we actually can pass explicitly religious laws/policies.

I feel like I had a few more examples, but I'm sure you get the idea. So, what's the deal?


This goes back to the Roman Empire, in my opinion. They feel it a moral obligation to right (no pun intended) a wayward world.

Christians have been in bed with politicians and politics for centuries, and they would have to be forced out, if they are indeed wanted out.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,776
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Well, I'm a conservative atheist who holds religion in fairly low regard, but I have recently started to gain an appreciation for some Christian traditions and I admire a lot of the ways in which Christianity intertwined with European culture and history. I also think that Christianity, at least in its recent history, has been a fairly positive force in western culture and helped to prevent people from descending into a hedonistic, amoral culture. Which we are now doing at a pretty rapid pace, and I can't help but think there's a connection with the reduction in adherence to Christianity.

I also worry that in the void left by the west walking away from Christianity, a worse, less mature religion might step in to take its place.

I am and always have been a die hard denier of any supernatural element to our universe, but human cultures developed religions for many reasons, and some of them were very adaptive reasons. Our ancestors found that religion played an important stabilizing role in their societies. It can certainly go wrong and cause a lot of problems, and has done so many times, but I am not so sure we're ready to abandon it. I think the masses probably need it. I also frankly think that a lot of the music and architecture, particularly "Silent night, holy night" are absolutely beautiful.

So I've walked away from the really harsh, hateful view I had of Christianity not so long ago. I haven't embraced it, but I respect it.

I want our government to maintain a strong separation from any church, that is crucial. But our culture doing the same thing... may prove fatal to it.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
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They consistently legislate and regulate their morality into the system (gay rights, abortions, etc).

Because the other choice is to be forced to pay for liberal immorality. See the billions spent each year bailing out single mothers as exhibit A
 

Daverino

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2007
2,004
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Because the other choice is to be forced to pay for liberal immorality. See the billions spent each year bailing out single mothers as exhibit A

I considered spending billions to kill lots of people in Iraq immoral. I also consider NOT spending billions to support our men and women who got fucked up over there for no good reason immoral.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,980
4
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Because the other choice is to be forced to pay for liberal immorality. See the billions spent each year bailing out single mothers as exhibit A

That is a logically flawed statement. Compare the divorce rate in the religious community to the divorce rate of the atheist community and you'll see no fucking difference.

I was raised by a religious single mother. Your argument is moot.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
They consistently legislate and regulate their morality into the system (gay rights, abortions, etc).

Aren't all laws a type of morality?

Even gay rights people oppose polygamy. So who are they to tell someone they can not get married.

If you want the honest truth, everyone is a bigot. We just have to dig a little deeper with some people. If we push far enough, sooner or later you will say no to a certain change in society.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
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That is a logically flawed statement. Compare the divorce rate in the religious community to the divorce rate of the atheist community and you'll see no fucking difference.

I was raised by a religious single mother. Your argument is moot.

40+% of children are born out of wedlock. What does divorce have to do with that?:hmm:
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,247
207
106
Aren't all laws a type of morality?

Even gay rights people oppose polygamy. So who are they to tell someone they can not get married.

If you want the honest truth, everyone is a bigot. We just have to dig a little deeper with some people. If we push far enough, sooner or later you will say no to a certain change in society.

I'm pretty ok with gays and polygamy, actually. But more to the point, there is a huge difference between saying "we support/oppose this because it has the following measureable effects on society" and saying "we support/oppose this because our dogma says so."
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
I'm pretty ok with gays and polygamy, actually. But more to the point, there is a huge difference between saying "we support/oppose this because it has the following measureable effects on society" and saying "we support/oppose this because our dogma says so."

You would have a point except often liberals support things, such as having children out of wedlock, despite the massive negative impact it has on society.

So basically liberals pretty much support/oppose things because their dogma says so as well. Which is why even though they claim marriage is between 2 consenting adults, when they rewrite marriage laws they still leave out incestuous couples.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
But more to the point, there is a huge difference between saying "we support/oppose this because it has the following measureable effects on society" and saying "we support/oppose this because our dogma says so."

What nehalem does in the privacy of his house with his toaster does not affect you in one bit. But yet we would deny him the right to marry his toaster.

If someone wants to smoke crack, snot coke,,,, whatever in the privacy of his or her home, who are we to say no?

If a husband wants to make extra money by pimping out his wife, who are we to say no?

If someone wants to buy dogs from the local pound and eat them, who are we to say no?

If your neighbor wants to have a garden in their front yard, who are we to say no?
 
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Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
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You let me know when a religion forces you to do something against your will and this Christian will be the first one to back you up. Until then you are trolling.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,478
6,901
136
Besides the fact that religion has repeatedly been used throughout history to pacify and subjugate "the heathen masses" for the concentration of power and wealth to a single person or entity, it seems to me that when benevolence, civility, equality and other such shall we say..."beneficial societal attributes" that further the advancement of peace and prosperity have been prioritized to the highest order in organized religion, the outcomes have been more favorable to the host society than not, especially at the level of the common folk.

As well, I believe there is a large percentage of liberals that would prefer a theocratically influenced form of government, but not a theocratically ruled government where the heads of state are also the self-anointed "religious" leaders of the state.
 

brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
2
0
want the US to be a theocracy?

They claim the US was founded by Christians for Christians.
They get angry about reverting the last change to the Pledge.
They get off on praying during legislative sessions, etc.
They consistently legislate and regulate their morality into the system (gay rights, abortions, etc).
Some will even go so far as to argue that the First Amendment only applies to a State sponsored Church, so we actually can pass explicitly religious laws/policies.

I feel like I had a few more examples, but I'm sure you get the idea. So, what's the deal?

I'm a conservative leaning Catholic. Here is my response.

1) US was founded by Christians mostly (Most people back then were Christian, as today.) But for Christians is not what the founders intended. They wanted freedom of religion. (Do not confused that with Freedom from religion).

2) Irrelevant. I couldn't care less what's in the pledge. That's a thing between a person and the state. It has little to do with God. I would never say the pledge nor expect anybody to be forced to say it (like 2nd graders in school.)

3) "Get off". If people choose to pray during sessions, that's up to them. But I couldn't care less if they do it or not. If I was a legislator I'd look at them as idiots.

4) Isn't that what laws are there for? If Christians have a moral code, I'd expect them to want to pass laws based on it. Abortion is wrong according to the Catholic church. I don't care what society's current position is with it. God is held in a higher regard than society. Much like a police officer is held in higher regard then a drunk driver in the courts. They take an oath, and are held to a higher integrity compared to society, and the courts have a bias towards the police officer. Christians are going to have a bias towards God over society pressure.

5) I'm not sure where you are getting your news. I think Freedom of Speech is fairly straight forward much like any other rights. It needs to apply to everybody and every entity.
 
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monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
want the US to be a theocracy?

They claim the US was founded by Christians for Christians.
They get angry about reverting the last change to the Pledge.
They get off on praying during legislative sessions, etc.
They consistently legislate and regulate their morality into the system (gay rights, abortions, etc).
Some will even go so far as to argue that the First Amendment only applies to a State sponsored Church, so we actually can pass explicitly religious laws/policies.

I feel like I had a few more examples, but I'm sure you get the idea. So, what's the deal?

I'm a conservative and a long time Republican and I support abortion and gay rights and have for longer then the last 2 Democrap presidents.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
They claim the US was founded by Christians for Christians.
They get angry about reverting the last change to the Pledge.
They get off on praying during legislative sessions, etc.
They consistently legislate and regulate their morality into the system (gay rights, abortions, etc).
Some will even go so far as to argue that the First Amendment only applies to a State sponsored Church, so we actually can pass explicitly religious laws/policies.

Or, you can have liberals who criminalize feeding the poor and homeless.

Show me an atheist charity hospital like the christus network of hospitals.

Show me an atheist charity hospital system who serves rural and under served areas.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
126
Well, I'm a conservative atheist who holds religion in fairly low regard, but I have recently started to gain an appreciation for some Christian traditions and I admire a lot of the ways in which Christianity intertwined with European culture and history. I also think that Christianity, at least in its recent history, has been a fairly positive force in western culture and helped to prevent people from descending into a hedonistic, amoral culture. Which we are now doing at a pretty rapid pace, and I can't help but think there's a connection with the reduction in adherence to Christianity.

I also worry that in the void left by the west walking away from Christianity, a worse, less mature religion might step in to take its place.

I am and always have been a die hard denier of any supernatural element to our universe, but human cultures developed religions for many reasons, and some of them were very adaptive reasons. Our ancestors found that religion played an important stabilizing role in their societies. It can certainly go wrong and cause a lot of problems, and has done so many times, but I am not so sure we're ready to abandon it. I think the masses probably need it. I also frankly think that a lot of the music and architecture, particularly "Silent night, holy night" are absolutely beautiful.

So I've walked away from the really harsh, hateful view I had of Christianity not so long ago. I haven't embraced it, but I respect it.

I want our government to maintain a strong separation from any church, that is crucial. But our culture doing the same thing... may prove fatal to it.
You are a very wise man and I say that with all sincerity.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
What does that say about the religious or conservative community as a whole, then?

Black people have far higher rates of out of wedlock pregnancy. Pretty sure they aren't voting Republican.

You also fail to realize that people are selfish. Take for instance John Kerry registering his boat in another state to avoid taxes. What does that say about liberals as a whole?
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
want the US to be a theocracy?

I don't think you know what theocracy means. Religious organizations aren't demanding they be put in charge of the government in the way the Pope controls Vatican City or the mullahs rule Iran.

They claim the US was founded by Christians for Christians.

Yes, religious freedom was the motivation for most of the original colonists.

They get angry about reverting the last change to the Pledge.
They get off on praying during legislative sessions, etc.
They consistently legislate and regulate their morality into the system (gay rights, abortions, etc).

This is mostly protesting incrementalism. Sort of how like the democrats in congress whine that republicans want women, children, elderly and the poor to die because we only want to increase the budget by 10% every year instead of 11%. It's a matter of principle.

Some will even go so far as to argue that the First Amendment only applies to a State sponsored Church, so we actually can pass explicitly religious laws/policies.

No, I don't believe anyone advocates that. Strawman bullshit.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,980
4
0
You let me know when a religion forces you to do something against your will and this Christian will be the first one to back you up. Until then you are trolling.

A family member of mine could have been saved through medical tech available today that was developed through stem cell research. They could be fucking ALIVE today, but no, the religious have to stifle stem cell research because the ignorant religious right believes that stem cells only come from aborted babies and abortion is bad.

What about the abortion doctors who are MURDERED because some religious fuckhole thinks he has an obligation set forth by god to stop the murder of innocent babies? That's a religious person forcing another person to stop LIVING because of their religious views.

What about the largely religious group who are at the forefront of the anti-gay movement, forcing homosexuals out of the benefits of being married because the religious are hateful fucking bigots and cannot STAND the idea of someone else doing something that doesn't affect the religious to begin with?

Fuck you, troll.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,980
4
0
Black people have far higher rates of out of wedlock pregnancy. Pretty sure they aren't voting Republican.

You also fail to realize that people are selfish. Take for instance John Kerry registering his boat in another state to avoid taxes. What does that say about liberals as a whole?

Way to completely avoid the point so you don't have to concede that I'm right.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
What about the largely religious group who are at the forefront of the anti-gay movement, forcing homosexuals out of the benefits of being married because the religious are hateful fucking bigots and cannot STAND the idea of someone else doing something that doesn't affect the religious to begin with?

This is not even remotely accurate. They are just refusing to EXTEND marriage to a new group. Marriage has always been understood to be between a man and a woman. In fact I think that states such as New Mexico didn't even explicitly ban same-sex marriage, because it would make about as much sense as banning dry water.