Why do/are German Cars crap-out/die/unreliable?

[exdeath]

Because people can't be bothered to maintain them.
ZV

This.

Any car can last forever with proper maintenance. Some cars require more maintenance than others.

 

[exdeath]

In my opinion it's because they tend to have designs that are more complex. While that complexity makes them extremely nice to drive when they're functioning perfectly it makes the maintenance more involved and costly than your typical japanese or american car.

Not really. Take a look at the S54 engine in the E46 M3. Simplicity at it's finest.

Nothing overly complex there at all, it's a pure work of art when you realize just how simple it is.

 

[mwmorph]

I have a Mercedes too and I maintain it for all service intervals. It's a 2006 E500 4matic with 38k miles and yeah, it's given me a few problems so it's not always down to maintenance.

I've had the head unit believe it was stolen and lock itself down 8 months ago or so (my battery didn't die and there was no power loss) and my airmatic suspension went out a couple of months ago (refused to go down from the up position), which was a expensive fix.

 

[Bignate603]

Not really. Take a look at the S54 engine in the E46 M3. Simplicity at it's finest.

BMW's straight 6s were pretty bulletproof but take a look at what else they're doing. Now they're doing things like the M5's V10 which has 10 separate throttle bodies. On the N54 engine the high pressure fuel pump is causing all sorts of problems.

They aren't exactly the most simplest engine out there.

 

[MJinZ]

This.

Any car can last forever with proper maintenance. Some cars require more maintenance than others.

No amount of maintenance will prevent a Camry, Avalon, etc with a V6 from leaking oil eventually. Shit can't be maintained.

 

[StageLeft]

I know people who drive German cars sometimes like to think it's only a matter of maintenance, but I don't buy that's the only reason. I think that even with solid maintenance they are more likely to have issues. Could be because they don't care about robustness as much (perhaps because their customers don't) or because their volumes are low (higher volumes can, if the desire is there from the manufacturer, allow kinks to be ironed out).

This isn't surprising. You buy something like a Honda and you are buying a brand intended to satisfy people who hate cars and just want a grocery go-getter that they can forget about, so reliability is an absolutely critical part of the car. That is just not the key motivation of German brands. In a more extreme example think of Ferrari. Nobody in the world is putting 60k on a Ferrari with just oil changes but nobody expects nor really cares about that with them.

 

[exdeath]

No amount of maintenance will prevent a Camry, Avalon, etc with a V6 from leaking oil eventually. Shit can't be maintained.

Any car will leak eventually. Seals do not last forever, therefore it can be considered normal maintenance at 150,000 miles.

Maintenance also means when a non wear part unexpectedly goes out you replace it right away, not continue driving it and blame it on the car when it gets worse and affects other things and wait until everything costs too much to repair/replace all at once. Shit happens, doesn't matter who makes the car. And the higher performance the car, the more shit will happen.

If you get an oil leak at 25k then maintenance means replacing that $40 seal at 25k and not 100k. If you replace it when it needs it and do it right yourself, point is, it will last another 100k, even if the factory messed up the first time and it only lasted 25k originally.

At least that's my philosophy when working on cars: use superior purpose built aftermarket parts to fix problem areas once and for all. When the oil cooler gasket started leaking in one tiny spot on my Cobra, I spent $90 immediately and replaced a gasket, two o-rings, and the center shaft which has it's own o ring all at the same time, added a bead of silicone when it wasn't required, and even broke loose the sending unit and a secondary bung plug, cleaned them up, and resealed them even though they weren't leaking, and thoroughly cleaned the adapter and cooler inside out with brake cleaner and inspected for holes, cracks, and corrosion. And from now on when I change the oil, I will be re-torquing that center shaft every time I take the filter off the threaded end. I don't intend on re-visiting that area again for the rest of the life of the car.

I could have just got the one gasket I needed or used silicone and then talked about how crappy Fords are when it leaked again, but that's not proper maintenance in my book. Under the hood of a car is an extremely hostile environment from an engineering perspective. Nothing is going to last forever, I don't care who builds it.

 

[MrMatt]

From memory aren't Mercedes pieces of shit as far as reliability goes? My friend once said "IF you want good engineering go with BMW, if you want an emblem on a hood and nothing else, get a Mercedes".


And I agree with ZV...

 

[MJinZ]

Any car will leak eventually. Seals do not last forever, therefore it can be considered normal maintenance at 150,000 miles.

Maintenance also means when a non wear part unexpectedly goes out you replace it right away, not continue driving it and blame it on the car when it gets worse and affects other things and wait until everything costs too much to repair/replace all at once. Shit happens, doesn't matter who makes the car. And the higher performance the car, the more shit will happen.

If you get an oil leak at 25k then maintenance means replacing that $40 seal at 25k and not 100k. If you replace it when it needs it and do it right yourself, point is, it will last another 100k, even if the factory messed up the first time and it only lasted 25k originally.

At least that's my philosophy when working on cars: use superior purpose built aftermarket parts to fix problem areas once and for all. When the oil cooler gasket started leaking in one tiny spot on my Cobra, I spent $90 immediately and replaced a gasket, two o-rings, and the center shaft which has it's own o ring all at the same time, added a bead of silicone when it wasn't required, and even broke loose the sending unit and a secondary bung plug, cleaned them up, and resealed them even though they weren't leaking, and thoroughly cleaned the adapter and cooler inside out with brake cleaner and inspected for holes, cracks, and corrosion. And from now on when I change the oil, I will be re-torquing that center shaft every time I take the filter off the threaded end. I don't intend on re-visiting that area again for the rest of the life of the car.

I could have just got the one gasket I needed or used silicone and then talked about how crappy Fords are when it leaked again, but that's not proper maintenance in my book. Under the hood of a car is an extremely hostile environment from an engineering perspective. Nothing is going to last forever, I don't care who builds it.

Seals? Please, if you don't know what I'm talking about, do some research. The vvti oil line itself degrades. That's like saying the car's steering column will eventually snap, or the axles will eventually break. These types of problems are not normal wear items or maintainable.

 

[exdeath]

Seals? Please, if you don't know what I'm talking about, do some research. The vvti oil line itself degrades. That's like saying the car's steering column will eventually snap, or the axles will eventually break. These types of problems are not normal wear items or maintainable.

That's a recall/design flaw. Technically, keeping up on recall notices is part of normal maintenance. Head tick on the 03/04 Cobras, rear sub frame detachment and rod bearing knock on the M3, VVTi line on Toyota's V6, like I said, nobody is immune to problems, shit happens.

Reliability of the car as a whole depends on how diligent you are at addressing those issues immediately. Especially if you know about the problem in advance; if you bought a Toyota right now and then bitched about the old style VVTi line busting in 3 months, I'd ask why didn't you go spend < $100 and get the all steel line and replace it since you knew about it already? (or even free under recall/warranty)

I agree some of the flaws that come out of some manufacturers are pretty ridiculous, but you try designing and building a car with a 6 month turn around and see how well you do

I've been around enough cars now to know better, that it's pretty much pick your poison and live with it. It's the little flaws, both the strengths and weaknesses, that give every car it's unique character.

 

[sjwaste]

Not really. Take a look at the S54 engine in the E46 M3. Simplicity at it's finest.



Nothing overly complex there at all, it's a pure work of art when you realize just how simple it is.

That looks shockingly similar to the 3L straight 6 in my Supra - except I have a shorter manifold to accommodate a turbo and they hadn't yet been using coil on plug design.

I've really been wanting a BMW. Used is my style. Were the I-6's fairly reliable, then? I'm very partial to the straight 6 for obvious reasons.

 

[reallyscrued]

No amount of maintenance will prevent a Camry, Avalon, etc with a V6 from leaking oil eventually. Shit can't be maintained.

....wtf? Yes...regular oil changes, valve cover gasket, distributor cap gasket, rings...do you actually wrench or do you just say shit? Even if it's the VVTi line. If there is a point where a motor is not leaking oil, then with the right amount of work, you can always go back to how it used to be, even if it requires a motor rebuild.

And

Because you're buying BMW instead of Mercedes?

Hah...ha ha....ha.

 

[MJinZ]

That's a recall/design flaw. Technically, keeping up on recall notices is part of normal maintenance. Head tick on the 03/04 Cobras, rear sub frame detachment and rod bearing knock on the M3, VVTi line on Toyota's V6, like I said, nobody is immune to problems, shit happens.

Reliability of the car as a whole depends on how diligent you are at addressing those issues immediately. Especially if you know about the problem in advance; if you bought a Toyota right now and then bitched about the old style VVTi line busting in 3 months, I'd ask why didn't you go spend < $100 and get the all steel line and replace it since you knew about it already? (or even free under recall/warranty)

I agree some of the flaws that come out of some manufacturers are pretty ridiculous, but you try designing and building a car with a 6 month turn around and see how well you do

I've been around enough cars now to know better, that it's pretty much pick your poison and live with it. It's the little flaws, both the strengths and weaknesses, that give every car it's unique character.

Except it's not a recall. Toyota isn't kind enough to recall it. It's currently done as a Limited Service Campaign.

http://www.pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/limited-service-campaign-for-vvt-154549.aspx?ncid=12025

If you do not pay attention, these kind of things can fuck your engine if you're running it with when oil already is gone.

 

[MJinZ]

....wtf? Yes...regular oil changes, valve cover gasket, distributor cap gasket, rings...do you actually wrench or do you just say shit? Even if it's the VVTi line. If there is a point where a motor is not leaking oil, then with the right amount of work, you can always go back to how it used to be, even if it requires a motor rebuild.

And



Hah...ha ha....ha.

And wtf are you commenting about? We are talking about maintaining vehicles. If replacing non-wearing drivetrain parts is part of your definition of regular maintenance, it's time to try a different manufacturer that doesn't suck ass.

 

[DivideBYZero]

MJinZbag

 

[alkemyst]

Because people are too poor to maintain them. /QUOTE]

fixed.



They require a bit of servicing, but if followed they last freaking forever.

 

[MJinZ]

MJinZbag

I have to say, I haven't seen you post a single substantive contribution outside of douche-bag one liners or smiley-faces. Stalkeresque. Douche-bag.

 

[MJinZ]

Because people are too poor to maintain them. /QUOTE]

fixed.



They require a bit of servicing, but if followed they last freaking forever.

But what about all those failing HPFPs on the BMW 3 series? Stuff like that baffles me.

 

[EightySix Four]

I have to say, I haven't seen you post a single substantive contribution outside of douche-bag one liners or smiley-faces. Stalkeresque. Douche-bag.

Most likely because he has come to the realization that no matter what we say and how much evidence we supply to back it up, you are not going to change your mind. You are just like fleabag in that sense, when you make a thread asking a question, you do not even consider the answers, you just begin to argue. We supply evidence (both first person and third) and you argue based on what you've heard with your bias applied.

In short, you're the douche bag, and it's fucking annoying.

But what about all those failing HPFPs on the BMW 3 series? Stuff like that baffles me.

Every brand has cars with similar problems, some worse, some better. It happens. FJ Cruisers' crush zones were bending under the strain of normal driving and toyota wouldn't take care of it, the Nissan Titan's front axle failures, Ford Diesel's EGR valve problems, etc. etc.

 

[MJinZ]

Most likely because he has come to the realization that no matter what we say and how much evidence we supply to back it up, you are not going to change your mind. You are just like fleabag in that sense, when you make a thread asking a question, you do not even consider the answers, you just begin to argue. We supply evidence (both first person and third) and you argue based on what you've heard with your bias applied.

In short, you're the douche bag, and it's fucking annoying.



Every brand has cars with similar problems, some worse, some better. It happens. FJ Cruisers' crush zones were bending under the strain of normal driving and toyota wouldn't take care of it, the Nissan Titan's front axle failures, Ford Diesel's EGR valve problems, etc. etc.

Because your answers are fucking ridiculous or deficient. The fact that studies like CR, JD-Power etc etc have hard data on things like VW reliability does mean that lack of proper regular maintenance and "perception" can't be THE ONLY reason.

And hey, how about some evidence. What questions have I asked exactly that I immediately argue about?

 

[EightySix Four]

Because your answers are fucking ridiculous or deficient. The fact that studies like CR, JD-Power etc etc have hard data on things like VW reliability does mean that lack of proper regular maintenance and "perception" can't be THE ONLY reason.

And hey, how about some evidence. What questions have I asked exactly that I immediately argue about?

... did you really just ask that in this thread?

 

[MJinZ]

... did you really just ask that in this thread?

Yep, show me some examples. I don't start many threads, and most of them are not questions. The last "question" thread I started about income levels and cars have no material responses from me after the OP.

If you want to see a troll, look at some people's posting history where they go around calling people XYZ-bags with no other actual contributions. :hmm:

 

[EightySix Four]

No troll here...

Farther back there is some more gold;
"Black people and homophobia"
"Jewish stereotypes - Gold & Silver?"

 

[ayabe]

Yep, show me some examples. I don't start many threads, and most of them are not questions. The last "question" thread I started about income levels and cars have no material responses from me after the OP.

If you want to see a troll, look at some people's posting history where they go around calling people XYZ-bags with no other actual contributions. :hmm:

DBY has a history here and is well known among the regulars of the Garage. You are not and have already dug a huge hole for yourself. My suggestion would be to tone it down and people will leave you alone.

 

[MJinZ]

No troll here...

Farther back there is some more gold;
"Black people and homophobia"
"Jewish stereotypes - Gold & Silver?"

Did you even read those? They were either patently TRUE, or in jest (if you weren't there when everyone was making a religion post for fun, then you weren't there).