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Why do all uATX boards have integrated graphics?

A

AmberClad

Diamond Member
I'm been wondering about this for a while now -- why do (seemingly) all uATX boards have integrated graphics like Intel's "G" chipset? It this a board maker issue, or a chipset issue?

I realize that a lot of the big system builders use them in cheap office systems to avoid paying for a discrete card. But what about boards makers like MSI, Abit, Gigabyte, etc -- ones that cater more to enthusiasts.
 
In general, those who bought the micro board value size, lower price, and convenience. Enthusiasts want room for future expansion. Look at the top high-end MBs. The boards are completely covered with bells and whistles.
 
Well, the price should be even lower with no IGP period, then (yes, I'm a cheapskate who doesn't like paying for things I don't use 😛, so sue me). Actually, would that mean AMD Fusion = no more IGP on micro ATX boards?
 
Not all mATX mobos have had IGP but I guess that the market just wasn't there for them & their availability has dwindled.
 
the new g33 and p35 chipsets actaully are the same die size, so its been theorized that they are the same chip just the p35 has the gpu disabled.

the main raeson would be that most mATX boards are used for non gaming machines and IGPs are plenty for that now. So it would be more of a hassle for say ASUS or something to make 2 SKUs.

even when you buy say a compaq now, if you buy a 3rd party video card they will just install it on the same board and put a cover on the IGP's port. i mean the list price difference for the chipsets is like $2 as it is, and having to make different boxes, manuals , have 2 production lines etc would probably negate the $2 savings (not to mention limit the flexibility).


its basically teh same reason that every board has onboard audio now.
 
Originally posted by: AmberClad
I'm been wondering about this for a while now -- why do (seemingly) all uATX boards have integrated graphics like Intel's "G" chipset? It this a board maker issue, or a chipset issue?
...
But what about boards makers like MSI, Abit, Gigabyte, etc -- ones that cater more to enthusiasts.
Click to expand...

Enthusiasts often don't buy mATX boards because they don't have "enthusiast" features such as overclocking. Manufacturers don't build "enthusiast" mATX boards because enthusiasts don't buy them. Who's fault is it?

It is changing, however. Pretty much everything that is on an "enthusiast" ATX board has now been found on a mATX board.

Overclocking? Latest socket 775 mATX boards from Gigabyte and Asus are hitting 500MHz FSB. Some socket AM2 mATX boards have hit 400MHz HTT.

Audio? Many mATX boards now feature 8 channel HD audio just like the ATX boards.

PCI-E 16x? Sure. SATA 3.0? Yup. RAID? Indeed. Firewire? Check. Heatpipe chipset coolers? Present. GBe? Absolutely. SPDIF? Yes. 4 RAM slots? Of course. Solid capacitors? Just like on ATX, some have it and some don't.

Performance? For similar "class" chipsets using same hardware and clock speeds, almost identical.

Let's see, so we're missing a couple of possible slots... three, to be exact. I don't think I've seen dual LAN on mATX boards. Some of the "extras" such as drive bay thingies that Abit includes, or audio daughtercards like Asus and DFI used to include, and onboard WiFi like some top end Asus boards... okay, wow, so we don't get the WiFi of those $250 Asus boards, or the other fluff. Is mATX missing anything else?

Dual GFX cards? Well... some ATI (now AMD) IGP chipsets can run dual graphics with a PCI-E card, basically acting as two separate cards for multi-monitor use. See below about Nvidia's upcoming IGP chipset that can run SLI with a PCI-E card. Finally, there is at least one mATX motherboard than can possibly run Crossfire (not SLI because not an Nvidia chipset). A Gigabyte mATX board (known to hit 500MHz FSB) has a PCI-E 16x and a PCI-E 4x which is "open ended" meaning 8x and 16x cards can be inserted.

Originally posted by: AmberClad
Well, the price should be even lower with no IGP period, then (yes, I'm a cheapskate who doesn't like paying for things I don't use 😛, so sue me).
Click to expand...

Thing is that the IGP chipsets are often sold at a lower price. It's marketing, just like a Core 2 Duo E6320 and a Core 2 Duo E6700 cost the same to make, but are sold at different price points.

An upcoming IGP may be of use to you (and others). Nvidia's making an IGP that can do SLI with a PCI-E card. Depending on which IGP model, it can theoretically add 5-25% performance.
 
Originally posted by: AmberClad
I'm been wondering about this for a while now -- why do (seemingly) all uATX boards have integrated graphics like Intel's "G" chipset? It this a board maker issue, or a chipset issue?
Click to expand...
More integration was the reason for mATX in the first place, or a practical necessity for smaller form factor PCs, whichever side of the coin you want to look at. The purpose of mATX was not to make standard tower PCs a few ounces lighter or more roomy inside. It was meant for smaller cases with much less room to accomodate expansion cards of all types.

Chaintech used to have a number of mATX boards with non-IGP chipsets like KT266A and NForce2. There are even ATX boards with IGP: e.g. MSI G965 Neo2 and G33 Neo

The question is not why mATX boards have IGP but rather...why not? Its free, or virtually free, doesn't occupy any real estate except a little spot for VGA output on the back, doesn't prevent the use of discrete graphics and won't affect performance if not used (some chipsets do incur a small memory bandwidth penalty even with the IGP disabled, but this can only be detected by synthetic benchmarks).

A manufacturer would have to be fairly certain that a significant market exists specifically for an mATX board without IGP, otherwise it is guaranteed to be a dud. On the other hand, boards with IGP + expansion slot for discrete graphics have universal appeal. Why take the risk when there is little to no potential for benefit or gain?
 
I kinda always thought it was nice to have both. When a card screws up, it's great to have some onboard to fall back on.
 
Originally posted by: tcsenter
The question is not why mATX boards have IGP but rather...why not? Its free, or virtually free, doesn't occupy any real estate except a little spot for VGA output on the back, doesn't prevent the use of discrete graphics and won't affect performance if not used (some chipsets do incur a small memory bandwidth penalty even with the IGP disabled, but this can only be detected by synthetic benchmarks).
Click to expand...

It seemed to me that I paid about as much (if not more) for my board as I would have paid for a comparable regular ATX board with a "P" chipset (which would have still had several more slots). So it's not exactly free in my mind.

Just for comparison:
The uATX board I'm using - Foxconn G9657MA-8EKRS2H: $118.99

A couple of regular ATX non-IGP boards:
The P965 version of that board - Foxconn P9657AB-8EKRS2H: $114.99
The uber popular Gigabyte DS3: $109.99

It was also my understanding that boards with IGP use slightly more power than they would otherwise (although I'm not clear if disabling the onboard video will prevent that). But one poster did bring up a valid point I suppose -- I probably will appreciate the IGP should something happen to my video card one day. But until that day...:|.

Slightly off topic, but one of my other big pet peeves are legacy ports. Ok, some, like PS/2, are useful on occasion, but there are others I could name that are completely useless to most people 99% of the time.
 
OBV chips run HOTTER, making it more difficult to achieve the same level of overclock at any given Vcore. Power load should be similar, in the absence of a video card.
 
actually

if you look up the latest intel chipsets, the G33 and P35 which i think its pretty accepted is running the same die... (I think the p965 and g965 were actually different chips, since g965 overclocked like garbage , and g33 and p35 seem to reach the same frequency)


the g33 on the TDP docs on intels site says it uses 14.5 watts in integrated graphics mode, and 16 watts in discrete graphics mode (i guess some power has to be used by the pci-e controller). the P35 on the other hand uses 16 watts ALL The time so its the same chip just you dont get a handy graphics port on the p35.
 
Originally posted by: hans007
actually

if you look up the latest intel chipsets, the G33 and P35 which i think its pretty accepted is running the same die... (I think the p965 and g965 were actually different chips, since g965 overclocked like garbage , and g33 and p35 seem to reach the same frequency)


the g33 on the TDP docs on intels site says it uses 14.5 watts in integrated graphics mode, and 16 watts in discrete graphics mode (i guess some power has to be used by the pci-e controller). the P35 on the other hand uses 16 watts ALL The time so its the same chip just you dont get a handy graphics port on the p35.
Click to expand...

So essentially, that means everyone, except the people that actually use the integrated graphics, get stiffed in the case of the P35/G33 :laugh: -- the ones that have it but can't use it and the ones that can use it but don't need it.

Anyone have any thoughts as far as Fusion? Am I correct in assuming that it would mean moving any possible IGP from the motherboard to the proc?
 
Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
OBV chips run HOTTER, making it more difficult to achieve the same level of overclock at any given Vcore.
Click to expand...

You're still talking about the CPU running hotter on a mATX board? :roll:
 
Originally posted by: AmberClad
Originally posted by: hans007
actually

if you look up the latest intel chipsets, the G33 and P35 which i think its pretty accepted is running the same die... (I think the p965 and g965 were actually different chips, since g965 overclocked like garbage , and g33 and p35 seem to reach the same frequency)


the g33 on the TDP docs on intels site says it uses 14.5 watts in integrated graphics mode, and 16 watts in discrete graphics mode (i guess some power has to be used by the pci-e controller). the P35 on the other hand uses 16 watts ALL The time so its the same chip just you dont get a handy graphics port on the p35.
Click to expand...

So essentially, that means everyone, except the people that actually use the integrated graphics, get stiffed in the case of the P35/G33 :laugh: -- the ones that have it but can't use it and the ones that can use it but don't need it.

Anyone have any thoughts as far as Fusion? Am I correct in assuming that it would mean moving any possible IGP from the motherboard to the proc?
Click to expand...

yeah more or less.

i figure intel has not bothered with designing anything to power down the graphics part.

seeing as the usual reserve that for mobile chips, and well any laptop using a g33 would probably actually be using the graphics part.
 
I believe that typically igp chips share some system RAM, which has a negative effect on OC, addressing, and other performance in the past. P35 and P965 dont share ram so there's no issue.

You're supposed to disable the IGP in bios if you use a discrete video card, which suggests that the "P" chips may have it disabled to begin with. Since there's no d-sub or dvi connects, its unlikely you could reactivate the IGP on a p35.

As to the OP,
-Enthusiasts go SLI and ATX.
-Business, non performance users, and portables go IGP and uATX.
-When the rest of the upper-mid range market realizes that they aren't going to go SLI and that onboard sound is "good enough", you'll probably see more uATX with no IGP. Smaller, silent, "sexier" style-oriented SFF cases may help drive the motherboard makers to the uATX market.
 
Originally posted by: hans007

the g33 on the TDP docs on intels site says it uses 14.5 watts in integrated graphics mode, and 16 watts in discrete graphics mode (i guess some power has to be used by the pci-e controller). the P35 on the other hand uses 16 watts ALL The time so its the same chip just you dont get a handy graphics port on the p35.
Click to expand...

Does that mean a G33 in IG mode would run cooler than a G33 in discrete mode ( or a P35 ) ?

Generally, is there any difference in the (chipset) heat sink used in a IGP mobo and a mobo without IGP ?


Originally posted by: gorobei
... P35 and P965 dont share ram so there's no issue.
Click to expand...

Is that correct ?

 
Originally posted by: NoobyDoo
Generally, is there any difference in the (chipset) heat sink used in a IGP mobo and a mobo without IGP ?
Click to expand...
The northbridge heatsink on mine looks identical to the one on the non-IGP P965 version of the same board. Makes you wonder if they should have used a bigger one (not sure if there's a spec that limits how big they can be), and whether it would have improved the OCing capabilities. From what others have posted, I suppose in the case of the new P35/G33, there shouldn't be a difference.

Also, I don't know why the G965 one in that picture uses a different southbridge heatsink from the P965. Fewer PCI slots to control?
 
Originally posted by: gorobei
-Enthusiasts go SLI and ATX.
Click to expand...

That statement is correct... if you define "enthusiasts" as "those who go SLI and ATX."

With dual GPU setups (counting SLI and Crossfire), I would have to say that there is less than 5% at the LAN parties I go to, and sometimes none at all. Yet, I would say that almost everyone who go to these LAN parties would be considered "enthusiast" in that most have built their own machine, play games, added bling to their systems, overclocked, etc.

As for ATX, you may be right in that most enthusiasts go ATX. Does using an ATX motherboard make them more of an enthusiast than the next person who's using micro ATX?

One reason for going ATX is more expansion slots. With the exception of those running dual GPUs, beyond a video card and perhaps sound card, I almost NEVER see any other expansion card installed into systems. Oh, on occasion a PCI SATA and/or RAID card (mostly in older systems) or a TV tuner, but those will still fit on micro ATX boards.

I guess the real reason for those extra slots is to show off those UV reactive slot protectors. :evil:
 
Originally posted by: Zap
I guess the real reason for those extra slots is to show off those UV reactive slot protectors. :evil:
Click to expand...
I actually almost bought one of those black slot protector kits, just to cover up the random assortment of UV neon-green, yellow, and blue slots on my board. Then I came to my senses and realized that I only have about two empty slots (the RAM ones) I could put covers on 🙁.

*sigh* Oh, how I wish DFI made C2D mATX boards. Now there's a company that understands color coordination and the idea that less is more...
 
Originally posted by: AmberClad

Originally posted by: gorobei
... P35 and P965 dont share ram so there's no issue.
Click to expand...

Is that correct ?
Click to expand...



"Each chipset generation has model variations that come with an integrated graphics unit, utilizing parts of the main memory as a local frame buffer"

http://www.tomshardware.com/20...33_and_ddr3/page2.html




Originally posted by: zap
That statement is correct... if you define "enthusiasts" as "those who go SLI and ATX."

With dual GPU setups (counting SLI and Crossfire), I would have to say that there is less than 5% at the LAN parties I go to, and sometimes none at all. Yet, I would say that almost everyone who go to these LAN parties would be considered "enthusiast" in that most have built their own machine, play games, added bling to their systems, overclocked, etc.

As for ATX, you may be right in that most enthusiasts go ATX. Does using an ATX motherboard make them more of an enthusiast than the next person who's using micro ATX?
Click to expand...

Sorry, not trying to insult anybody. I know some people in the forum are a little sensitive about the difference between "enthusiast" and "spoiled brat whose parents are willing to give them a blank check to buy a computer."

In this instance I'm referring to the market breakdown as the motherboard manufactures see it. Low end/office station/general populace vs mid-range/enthusiast vs high end/performance monger/enthusiast. While GPU manufactures can make 3 different PCB sizes to suit the requirements of each segment, MB makers only have two viable sizes presently:ATX and uATX. If it were practical and profitable, I'm sure the MB makers would come out with an oversized "ATX plusplus turbo uberchill" board with a couple of extra inches for quad video card sockets to cater to the highend crowd. But all they can do right now to justify higher end prices is add extra pci-e slots for SLI and heatpipes for OC to mid-end boards. So mid end users end up going with ATX just because of the limited selection of uATX.
If there was a lower priced uATX board without IGP, that could fit a 8800GTX, overclock well, and fit inside a SFF case; I'm sure more of the mid-end segment would consider building one.(myself included. I'm all for not paying for stuff I don't use.)

 
Originally posted by: gorobei
Originally posted by: zap
That statement is correct... if you define "enthusiasts" as "those who go SLI and ATX."
Click to expand...

In this instance I'm referring to the market breakdown as the motherboard manufactures see it. Low end/office station/general populace vs mid-range/enthusiast vs high end/performance monger/enthusiast.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.

A lot of this is marketing driven, and what drives the marketing department is profits. Build customer desire for something they really don't need (a second video card) and reap the benefits (double profits).

At Quakecon there was a special line for "Club SLI." I guess people who had registered at that Nvidia site got to bypass the normal line. More (and effective) marketing.

Originally posted by: gorobei
If there was a lower priced uATX board without IGP, that could fit a 8800GTX, overclock well, and fit inside a SFF case; I'm sure more of the mid-end segment would consider building one.(myself included. I'm all for not paying for stuff I don't use.)
Click to expand...

Fit 8800GTX - check
Overclock well - check
Fit inside SFF case - check
Lower priced - check
Without IGP - BEEEEEP

Would you settle for 4 out of 5?

This $77 mATX board can overclock as well or better than any other socket AM2 board, known to hit 400MHz HTT.

This $120 Asus mATX board gives some Core 2 Duo lovin' at a known 470MHz FSB. Okay, this one isn't cheaper than the cheapest Asus P35 board, but is cheaper than the other 10 Asus P35 boards (or however myriad of models they make).

I'm not sure if you should consider IGP an "extra" cost.

IMO a bigger worry for potential SFF use is an adequate power supply and keeping the video card cool. Nobody makes an SFX PSU with more than 24A combined on the +12v rail. Also, the slimmer cases use mostly 60mm fans for case ventilation. Two possible solutions to this are to use either a "cube" style case like the X-Qpack or a mini-tower like the Silverstone SST-TJ08. That way you get your 120mm fan coolin' power as well as being able to use standard ATX PSUs, but still keep a compact size.
 
Might want to look at the Silverstone SG03 as well. Its a little smaller than the TJ08 in height but still fits the 8800GTX card. It can use two 120mm front fans as well.
 
Ok, Zap, I do concede that there are worse things than paying (or not paying) a few bucks extra for an IGP that could come in handy on rare occasions 😛. But I still feel like the board makers could do more as far as designing better mATX boards, particularly higher end ones.

Case in point -- most of them don't seem to take into account the types of expansion components that are likely to be installed in higher end gaming systems. You see many mATX boards where, if the user were to try to install a double-wide video card, the PCI slot(s) would be blocked or the PCI cards would be positioned in such a way as to block the intake fan on the video card. You wanted a discrete sound card to go with that fancy video card? Too bad. But the oh-so-useful PCIe x1 slot is left conveniently free and unobstructed. How thoughtful of them...

I look at some of these mATX boards, even ones by companies like Abit and ASUS, and end up wondering what they were thinking with these designs and layouts. What they're probably thinking is how to tailor their board design to appeal to a business or mainstream market, a market that (at most) might add a single slot card like a midrange GeForce.

Anyways, that was just an example. There are various other gripes I could name, like floppy drive pinouts being given optimal position at the expense of moving the IDE pinouts to the worst possible position. (I wasn't aware that we were still living in the mid 1990s...) Also, boards where the internal firewire pinout is between the PCIe x16 and another slot (again, that whole issue with board makers not designing with high end cards in mind).

So in general, not just with regards to the IGP issue, I think they could do a better job and devote more resources to building a better mATX board. And maybe more users would get on board.
 
Originally posted by: Skott
Might want to look at the Silverstone SG03 as well. Its a little smaller than the TJ08 in height but still fits the 8800GTX card. It can use two 120mm front fans as well.
Click to expand...
Did you just get your new build done Skott? It looks sweet. Not to mention a bit better than mine in almost every way 🙁...
 
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