308nato
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- Feb 10, 2002
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The US military was in command of the 22 nations forces that were sent to korea. They were sent there to enforce a UN resolution. The military command set up the rules of engagement based on the resolutions desired outcome.
We were not there with forces of 22 countries at our disposal to do with what we wanted to which is what your statement suggests. That scenario would be the laughable one my friend.
Making France feel better about itself after the beating it took in WW2 was the start of our involvement in Viet Nam. Viet Nam could have been avoided had we supported Ho Chi Min after WW2. He wanted independance for Viet Nam. In fact when he declared indepenance from France, he included passages from the US declaration of Independance. Was he a communist at the time? Yes. But he was not in Moscows camp and the Vietnamese hate the Chinese so he was not frieds with Red China at that time either. When the US rebuffed his request for help in gaining independance, he turned to China/USSR to meet his goals.
And by the time the UN resolution had passed it was a very very sticky situation and Korea was almost lost. I think there was only one or two harbors left in the south and the first troops to arrive where almost driven back into the sea. Lot's of poeple don't know how close that one was right at the begining.
McArthurs flanking landing saved the day putting presure off the south and giving some breathing room. From there on it was a push up north. Problem was like many here pointed out that he was VERY VERY full of himself and didn't think he had to listen much to his leadership. After all he was the man that saved the day!
His comments about the nukes where in clear defiance to the presidents orders and in part probably got the chineese commited to enter the arena. Once they entered the whole track began backwards with a VERY VERY unstable front finaly holding around the 38th parallel.
I just love PBS and the History channel. If you ever can catch the 4 hour show that PBS did on the Korean war. VERY informative!
McArthurs flanking landing saved the day putting presure off the south and giving some breathing room. From there on it was a push up north. Problem was like many here pointed out that he was VERY VERY full of himself and didn't think he had to listen much to his leadership. After all he was the man that saved the day!
His comments about the nukes where in clear defiance to the presidents orders and in part probably got the chineese commited to enter the arena. Once they entered the whole track began backwards with a VERY VERY unstable front finaly holding around the 38th parallel.
I just love PBS and the History channel. If you ever can catch the 4 hour show that PBS did on the Korean war. VERY informative!
They were sent thier to enforce a UN resolution sponsored by the United States. We were already fully involved before the resolution, the resolution just gave us more support in the war which we were at the time losing badly. The resolution was drafted by the US, pushed by the US, and its implemntation was totally governed by the US. If you want to blame the UN for failure go ahead and do that, but if you seriously think MacArthur or Truman were being hamstrung by the UN or those 22 other nations I will have to disagree. This was a war that was a direct result of the Soviet Union/US conflict and the policy of containment not UN meddling. How exactly would the UN not being involved have changed the outcome?? Do you think Truman would have given the okay to Nuke the Chinese??? Come on. Do you think the Soviets would have stood still if we started bombing China?? Do you think the Koreans would have made nice all by themselves?? Irrational hatred of the UN doesn't change history.
The rules of engagement stemmed from the desire of the US not to get in a full blown war with the Soviet Union, not the restrictions of the resolution. We might have won the war if MacArthur had just known how to follow orders rather than trying to start his own WWIII.
Do you know why that war went to hell when we were at the cusp of victory??? Because Douglass MacArthur forgot his duty, the duty of a soldier in defense of a democratic state with appointed civillian leadership to follow orders and leave the strategic planning to the elected leadership. Instead he dragged us into a fight with the Chinese and cost more blood than I want to think about. To satisfy his ego and his bluster he nearly grasped defeat from the hand of victory.
308nato
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- Feb 10, 2002
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The UN resolution required the hostile forces to be expelled from the South and for the ceasefire to be monitored by UN member troops. Simple as that. And that is what happened. What has happened in the North since then is a direct result of that insufficient end.
Was all the slaughter worth that end when nothing was resolved ? Was it a case of , "Whew, we squeaked by that one. Our grandkids can take care of it later?"
We balked behind the UN's skirts and now another generation may have to pay the price. How many millions of innocents have died in the Hermit Kingdom since 1953? How many of the 8100 American POW/MIA's from the conflict died waiting for us to get them when we turned a blind eye?
We took a raincheck on finishing things on the peninsula and the goods are about ready to pick up unfortunately.
What is a generals job? To win a conflict
What is a politician's job? To control the military.
Of course the military would use everything at their disposal to win a war. It is the politician's job to make sure they are not out of control (killing civilians, using nuclear weapons, provoking 3rd party countries, etc).
If you think MacArthur is a hero in the Korean War, then you've got it all wrong. He may have been a hero in WWII, but his actions were totally reckless in Korea. The US was going to win the Korean War by pushing North Korea back to the Yalu River, but fortunately for the US, MacArthur was in command. He was by nature, a very stubborn hawkish man. He did not take the Chinese threat seriously, and ignored all Chinese warnings. In fact, in a conference with Truman, MacArthur underestimated the Red Army by a factor of 10 on purpose, despite his subordinate generals warning him otherwise. MacArthur claimed that the Red Army possessed no Air Force, and the spy photos by US Recon jets were of fake jets to solidify China's warnings. Nice way of playing down real threats.
Moreover, MacArthur wanted to nuke Chinese cities after their intervention. Im sorry, I know there are a lot of people here who would love to see nukes fly and people die dastardly deaths, but such action would result in WWIII, and the end result is a nuclear war between the US and the USSR. So yes, i fully agree with the politicians to restrain him.
Comment: He was also reckless enough to attack a Soviet Airfield in Soviet Territory during the war.
Source: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/p&d.htm.
What is a politician's job? To control the military.
Of course the military would use everything at their disposal to win a war. It is the politician's job to make sure they are not out of control (killing civilians, using nuclear weapons, provoking 3rd party countries, etc).
If you think MacArthur is a hero in the Korean War, then you've got it all wrong. He may have been a hero in WWII, but his actions were totally reckless in Korea. The US was going to win the Korean War by pushing North Korea back to the Yalu River, but fortunately for the US, MacArthur was in command. He was by nature, a very stubborn hawkish man. He did not take the Chinese threat seriously, and ignored all Chinese warnings. In fact, in a conference with Truman, MacArthur underestimated the Red Army by a factor of 10 on purpose, despite his subordinate generals warning him otherwise. MacArthur claimed that the Red Army possessed no Air Force, and the spy photos by US Recon jets were of fake jets to solidify China's warnings. Nice way of playing down real threats.
Moreover, MacArthur wanted to nuke Chinese cities after their intervention. Im sorry, I know there are a lot of people here who would love to see nukes fly and people die dastardly deaths, but such action would result in WWIII, and the end result is a nuclear war between the US and the USSR. So yes, i fully agree with the politicians to restrain him.
Comment: He was also reckless enough to attack a Soviet Airfield in Soviet Territory during the war.
Source: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/p&d.htm.
You are wrong there. The UN ordered the UN Command headed by MacArthur to finish the job and he failed.
The UN resolution also authorized us to cross the 38th parallel and unify the entire country. MacArthur screwed that up. Don't blame the UN for him not being able to get the job done due to an American generals recklessness and arrogance. On 7th October 1950 the general assembly authorized him to cross the 38th and take the whole country. UN forces had fricking entered Ponyang by the 18th. They gave him the authority and the resources to do this. He couldn't follow orders and helped spark a wider war by making the Chinese think he wouldn't stop at the Yalu.
Thanks to devx for the link to the actual text of the resolution of the 7th. This gave MacArthur and the UN forces the mandate to conquer and reunify all of Korea. We did not fail in this because we hid behind the UN's skirts. WE FAILED BECAUSE TRUMAN FAILED TO RESTRAIN HIS RABID DOG MACARTHUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It wasn't the UN, it was a trigger happy, arrogant man, who was ready to use nuclear weapons and potentially invite a global nuclear war that cost all those lives and wasted all that effort.
On 7 October the General Assembly passed the resolution. It did not clearly call for the conquest and occupation of North Korea but gave implicit assent. The General Assembly recommended:
(a) All appropriate steps he taken to ensure conditions of
stability throughout Korea; and, (b) All constituent acts be taken,
including the holding of elections, under the auspices of the
United Nations, for the establishment of a unified independent and
democratic Government in the sovereign State of Korea . . .
This resolution also established the United Nations Commission for the Unification and Rehabilitation of Korea (UNCURK) which replaced the old United Nations Commission in Korea. [6] The Joint Chiefs of Staff had already sent a draft copy of the resolution to General MacArthur, at the same time informing him that the United States Government considered it as supporting operations north of the 38th Parallel. [7]
On 7 October the General Assembly passed the resolution. It did not clearly call for the conquest and occupation of North Korea but gave implicit assent. The General Assembly recommended:
(a) All appropriate steps he taken to ensure conditions of
stability throughout Korea; and, (b) All constituent acts be taken,
including the holding of elections, under the auspices of the
United Nations, for the establishment of a unified independent and
democratic Government in the sovereign State of Korea . . .
This resolution also established the United Nations Commission for the Unification and Rehabilitation of Korea (UNCURK) which replaced the old United Nations Commission in Korea. [6] The Joint Chiefs of Staff had already sent a draft copy of the resolution to General MacArthur, at the same time informing him that the United States Government considered it as supporting operations north of the 38th Parallel. [7]
This is good stuff... so it was MacArthur who brought the Chinese into it that turned the tide. The UN was a pain in the butt, but we were already engaged with or without them. I found this here.
Did Korea and China/USSR's influence that led to the stalemate set the stage for Vietnam? If we had simply defeated the northern military and not encroached on China, would China and the USSR have stayed out of Vietnam? It sounds like because of what MacArthur did, "war by proxy" between the communists and the US became the precedent.
Did Korea and China/USSR's influence that led to the stalemate set the stage for Vietnam? If we had simply defeated the northern military and not encroached on China, would China and the USSR have stayed out of Vietnam? It sounds like because of what MacArthur did, "war by proxy" between the communists and the US became the precedent.
A lot of the blame can be placed on MacArthur and those who supported him in his arrogant war mongering. Of course it is always easier to just blame the UN for everything when this was really an American failing. We failed and 55,000+ men paid the price for it.
technically - i believe the war with n. korea is not over..so we could still win! (what ever that means).
"technically - i believe the war with n. korea is not over..so we could still win! (what ever that means). "
me too!
me too!
What galls me when discussing the Korean War, or Vietnam for that matter, is the assertion that the U.S. was wrong in attacking either China or the Soviet Union while they were conducting outright hostile acts of war against our troops. Flying combat operations and providing bases of operation for enemy combatants are acts of war (war by proxy), and MacArthur is right that we should made some nuclear contributions to China since they decided they wanted to be at war with us. At the very least, indications are that the Chinese were on the ropes when the armistice was reached, and we should have pushed them farther north to give Seoul some breathing room. Now it's ranged by NK artillery -- good planning.
It's ok to kill American troops but bad when we respond? Ludicrous.
It's ok to kill American troops but bad when we respond? Ludicrous.
Nuking China or the Soviet Union would be as smart as having the Soviet Union nuke the United States.
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