Why democracy meme is a farce.

[ShawnD1]

Well I didn't say we should go around the globe and do forced nation building. If I was dictator I would leave Afghanistan tomorrow. But I do believe we have a moral duty to promote our values in the international arena.

I thought your values were to not be a dick, and just leave people alone.

 

[cwjerome]

I thought your values were to not be a dick, and just leave people alone.

I guess you're wrong. Wikipedia "liberal democracy" to learn much of what the US stands for...

 

[ShawnD1]

I guess you're wrong. Wikipedia "liberal democracy" to learn much of what the US stands for...

Looks like a pretty long article and I don't want to read all of it. Does it have a part in there about arbitrarily deciding that a country elected the wrong person, then overthrowing the government in that country? I don't think that's what the founding fathers had in mind when they started a country.

1953 Iran
1954 Guatemala
Castro and his band of merry men overthrew a dictator in Cuba, then the US tried to invade and restore the previous dictatorship.
Chile, Iraq, and several others have had the same problem. The country wants one leader, USA tries to overthrow that leader.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

That's actually what the Vietnam war was about. Vietnam was a colony controlled by the French. The Vietnamese did what American colonists did and declared independence. France and USA fought against the creation of an independent state lead by a widely supported leader, Ho Chi Minh. It sounds like bullshit on some internet forum, but it becomes obvious that this really did happen when you talk to someone who was in that war. They all say the same thing: they couldn't tell who was an enemy and who wasn't, it wasn't "north" attacking "south" as much as it was groups throughout the entire country who wanted independence.

 

[cwjerome]

Looks like a pretty long article and I don't want to read all of it. Does it have a part in there about arbitrarily deciding that a country elected the wrong person then overthrowing the government? I don't think that's what the founding fathers had in mind when they started a country.

Yeah, I doubt that's in there. What it has to do with the topic I have no idea.

 

[ShawnD1]

Yeah, I doubt that's in there. What it has to do with the topic I have no idea.

You were saying that toppling foreign governments was to spread American values. USA has a very long history of supporting dictatorships. Dictatorship = American Values??


Don't bullshit us. Those foreign entanglements had absolutely nothing to do with spreading American values.

 

[cwjerome]

You were saying that toppling foreign governments was to spread American values.

I was?

Show me.

 

[wuliheron]

This is exactly why democracy won't help shitty countries. They would vote for insane laws like legalized honor killings or giving the death penalty to anyone who questions the local religion, and it would not have any risk of system breakdown because everyone in the country thinks honor killings and heretic witch burning is ok.

Morality and government is all about controlling resources and evolves along with our ability to control greater resources. Primitive tribes often don't even have words for things like "guilt" and "greed" much less formal governments. They aren't stupid or completely naive, they simply have no real use for such things. Nor is it practical for everyone to break out their guns every time they disagree if they want to get ahead in this world so instead we invent all these ways to agree to disagree and surround them with lots of pomp and ceremony and mystique just like any primitive tribe might.

 

[cwjerome]

I was?

Show me.

I won't wait for you because you can't show me... I didn't say anything about toppling foreign governments to spread American values.

A) I DIDN'T say we should do forced nation building or topple governments.

B) I DID say I would leave Afghanistan if I were in charge.

C) I DID say we have a moral duty to promote our values in the international arena **

** This does not mean we have the responsibility or right to kill anyone around the world in the name of our values.

Because you seem to be somewhat of a fool, I suspect you badly misinterpreted what I meant by C. The US embodies many general principles and ideals... such as pluralism, rule of law, separation of church as state, consent of the governed, market economy, personal liberty, etc etc etc, philosophical concepts about how man and society should be organized and managed. Broad themes that define who we are. We should not be timid or ashamed of what we strive for, for what we see as the good. If we believe these things and value them, then we should represent them and defend them in the marketplace of ideas. We have a moral duty to promote science over superstition, freedom over slavery, and reason over emotion. We should challenge evil and ignorance wherever it exists.

Nowhere am I saying we must bomb nations or topple governments.

 

[Fern]

My 1st objection is that democracy seems to be defined merely by people electing their leader(s). I think democracy required much more than that. I'm not sure I've ever really seen a real democracy.

Heck, Saddam Husein was elected, I don't consider Iraq at that time to be a democracy.

Secondly, I think when people in the USA refer to a democarcy it is understood that they are referring to "a political system marked not only by free and fair elections, but also by the rule of law, a separation of powers, and the protection of basic liberties of speech, assembly, religion, and property."

Fern