Why Cut, Cap, and Balance fails

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chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Several iterations of the deals included that. Sticking points were mechanisms for enforcement. Then the Gang of Six plan came out and shot the political landscape to hell on both sides.

More like, sticking points were the backroom deals for working around the fake mechanisms of enforcement. You can't possibly believe the future politicians would actually rigorously stick to future budgets with deficit spending and/or printing money, do you?

Chuck
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
I was speaking about entitlement reform.

There are Medicare reforms already in Obamacare.
They also proposed raising eligibility age, in exchange for tax revenues.
GOP balked on tax revenues, so this is off the table.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
But if there's a surplus, people generally start to complain about why they're paying more taxes than they have to. Then taxes get cut... Goodbye surplus?

What surplus? When money was stupidly given back under Bush and the Republicans, we didn't have a surplus then. We simply had a surplus for that year. Was the national debt paid off? The answer to that is not only No but Hell No. The answer wasn't to take that money and give it back to the citizens it was taken from, the answer was to take that money and pay down the national debt. I realize they used it to bolster the economy, but they should have just paid down what we already owed.

As a taxpayer, and consumer, I'd much rather hear the .gov is paying $3B (or whatever it was they refunded Us in total) off the national debt because they took in too much, rather than I'll be getting a massive $300 back from money that's already missing from me.

I truly believe none (or virtually none) of these politicians (past or present or future) think that just maybe, getting out from under all our national debt is something that should ever be accomplished or is important. If they did, they'd be pushing for budgets that are substantially less than the .gov revenues so they could take the difference and pay it off.

It's like someone with a house loan that just pays interest only, and never touches the principle. Sooner or later they die, who is left to pay off what they didn't take care of in their lifetime? Oh, their kids. Except the kids can walk away from their parents house, We can't walk away from our debt.

It's like looney toons logic, it's surreal....

Chuck
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I was speaking about entitlement reform.
To a progressive, any money government does not take is an entitlement. Government leaving you a dollar is government spending a dollar. Thus Obama's words about cutting spending "in the tax code" and senseamp's claim that raising taxes on a select group is actually entitlement reform. (I do support that measure, but it is a tax increase, NOT entitlement reform.)

Obama's actually being cagey about this whole thing. He claims to be offering a combination of tax increases, spending cuts, and entitlement reform, but without laying his cards on the table. Thus his tax increases are tax increases, his spending cuts are tax increases, and his entitlement reforms are simply insisting that his policies are saving money. We're actually spending more money every year, but in Step 2 a miracle happens and we're actually saving money we would have had to spend without benefit of his electrifying almightiness.

As long as you have a friendly press and no pretensions of honesty, that may well work out well for him.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
What surplus? When money was stupidly given back under Bush and the Republicans, we didn't have a surplus then. We simply had a surplus for that year. Was the national debt paid off? The answer to that is not only No but Hell No. The answer wasn't to take that money and give it back to the citizens it was taken from, the answer was to take that money and pay down the national debt. I realize they used it to bolster the economy, but they should have just paid down what we already owed.

As a taxpayer, and consumer, I'd much rather hear the .gov is paying $3B (or whatever it was they refunded Us in total) off the national debt because they took in too much, rather than I'll be getting a massive $300 back from money that's already missing from me.

I truly believe none (or virtually none) of these politicians (past or present or future) think that just maybe, getting out from under all our national debt is something that should ever be accomplished or is important. If they did, they'd be pushing for budgets that are substantially less than the .gov revenues so they could take the difference and pay it off.

It's like someone with a house loan that just pays interest only, and never touches the principle. Sooner or later they die, who is left to pay off what they didn't take care of in their lifetime? Oh, their kids. Except the kids can walk away from their parents house, We can't walk away from our debt.

It's like looney toons logic, it's surreal....

Chuck
Its not really stupid if you believe that you could get a higher rate of return compared to what you're paying in interest. For example, you owe $50,000 in student loans with an interest rate of 2.5%. You have a good job with a good chunk of income leftover after paying rent, food, utilities, etc. You could pay as much as you could afford and pay it off as quickly as possible...... or you could put it into an investment that believe will yield more than the 2.5%. The logical thing would be to put the minimum towards paying off your student loan and put the rest towards the the higher yield investment.

Well, the investment went sour and now you lost your money plus you still have your student loan.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Its not really stupid if you believe that you could get a higher rate of return compared to what you're paying in interest. For example, you owe $50,000 in student loans with an interest rate of 2.5%. You have a good job with a good chunk of income leftover after paying rent, food, utilities, etc. You could pay as much as you could afford and pay it off as quickly as possible...... or you could put it into an investment that believe will yield more than the 2.5%. The logical thing would be to put the minimum towards paying off your student loan and put the rest towards the the higher yield investment.

Well, the investment went sour and now you lost your money plus you still have your student loan.

Yes, except it's more like this:

You own a grocery store and net $100k a year but (on average) spend $115k a year. After 40 years of this, you're $583k in debt. The obvious solution to this is to massively increase your losses giving away free food to needy and "needy" people, even when they waddle in at 400lbs along with their fat kids, drive up in cars with $3k of wheels on them, and $1k in stereo equipment. The needy/"needy" who depend on you, and also the other 1/2 of the community that would like to keep getting their food (because there is no other grocery store that exists), notice that you're in extreme debt and spending far outside of your means: This year instead of net'ing $100k and spending $115k, you're donations to the needy/"needy" have you spending $130k. So the obvious thing to do is to increase prices on the wealthiest items in the store, since obviously, whoever can buy those can afford to pay the price increase. Awesomely, at your present rate of spending and revenue, this will only put you in the hole $29k next year instead of another $30k. The needy/"needy" love this, as they'll keep getting their free ride and have to pay nothing in return. Oh, they all happen to vote to keep you running the store.

You present a plan that in 10 years, you'll get down to breaking even instead of being in the hole each year, but conveniently leave out that this leaves even more massive debt the store still owes due to how long this plan takes, i.e. instead of at $583k, you'll be at $800k debt in 10 years.

There you go....our present situation.

Chuck
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Yes, except it's more like this:

You own a grocery store and net $100k a year but (on average) spend $115k a year. After 40 years of this, you're $583k in debt. The obvious solution to this is to massively increase your losses giving away free food to needy and "needy" people, even when they waddle in at 400lbs along with their fat kids, drive up in cars with $3k of wheels on them, and $1k in stereo equipment. The needy/"needy" who depend on you, and also the other 1/2 of the community that would like to keep getting their food (because there is no other grocery store that exists), notice that you're in extreme debt and spending far outside of your means: This year instead of net'ing $100k and spending $115k, you're donations to the needy/"needy" have you spending $130k. So the obvious thing to do is to increase prices on the wealthiest items in the store, since obviously, whoever can buy those can afford to pay the price increase. Awesomely, at your present rate of spending and revenue, this will only put you in the hole $29k next year instead of another $30k. The needy/"needy" love this, as they'll keep getting their free ride and have to pay nothing in return. Oh, they all happen to vote to keep you running the store.

You present a plan that in 10 years, you'll get down to breaking even instead of being in the hole each year, but conveniently leave out that this leaves even more massive debt the store still owes due to how long this plan takes, i.e. instead of at $583k, you'll be at $800k debt in 10 years.

There you go....our present situation.

Chuck
Your analogy is all wrong and doesn't fit with the budget surplus you mentioned. I'm not agreeing with what Bush did, just stating that its not illogical not to pay off a debt asap if you can get a higher return elsewhere.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Except there is no budget surplus, that is the point. It doesn't matter if you're close (measured in tens of Billions) to even for your budget so you want to give some $$ back, when you have Trillions you absolutely will owe and the interest (which you absolutely will owe) on that far eclipses whatever the amount you're going to theoretically get back by a somewhat inflated economy from the refund, you don't go the refund route, you pay off some of the massive F'ing debt you owe.

Don't get me wrong: In a perfect world, where the national debt is basically nothing, and the budget is balanced, having the gov pay the taxpayers back if they took in too much money would be great. We have essentially never been there, and never will in the foreseeable future.

Chuck
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Except there is no budget surplus, that is the point. It doesn't matter if you're close (measured in tens of Billions) to even for your budget so you want to give some $$ back, when you have Trillions you absolutely will owe and the interest (which you absolutely will owe) on that far eclipses whatever the amount you're going to theoretically get back by a somewhat inflated economy from the refund, you don't go the refund route, you pay off some of the massive F'ing debt you owe.

Don't get me wrong: In a perfect world, where the national debt is basically nothing, and the budget is balanced, having the gov pay the taxpayers back if they took in too much money would be great. We have essentially never been there, and never will in the foreseeable future.

Chuck
QFT
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Except there is no budget surplus, that is the point.

Chuck

Care to explain this then?

What surplus? When money was stupidly given back under Bush and the Republicans, we didn't have a surplus then. We simply had a surplus for that year.

Keep in mind, the budget takes into account interest to be paid on the national debt. That means, after paying the interest on the national debt, Bush still had money left over. The budget surplus could have then been used to pay down the principal. Bush chose instead to invest it in the form of a tax cut thinking he could get a better rate of return on revenues which would lead to a bigger surplus in the years ahead. Maybe it would have worked out, maybe not. But then Bush went and spent more money by invading Iraq and adding Medicare Part D among other things.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Care to explain this then?

"...for that year."

What else needs explaining?

We didn't have $0 of national debt, and accidently run a surplus. We simply paid the hundreds of Billions of $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$.$$ on the national debt and oh lookee there, we've got a paltry sum left over, lets make some political points both by giving money back to those who paid it (a good thing if you have no national debt, which wasn't and still isn't the case) and so the economy would be better (however much it actually did help it). A win-win for any politician(s).

Having a surplus for a year doesn't mean you have a surplus until you get your total debt under control. Until that actually happens (if ever, which isn't likely), all that means is you're potentially less in debt than you were the year before...until they gave it back and that means you're just in the same place you were the year before. Congrats!

Call me when the national debt is at 0$ (or a realistic number), the budgets for the current and future years are actually balanced, and we run a surplus for one of those years. Then we'll actually have a real surplus...

Chuck
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,789
6,349
126
"...for that year."

What else needs explaining?

We didn't have $0 of national debt, and accidently run a surplus. We simply paid the hundreds of Billions of $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$.$$ on the national debt and oh lookee there, we've got a paltry sum left over, lets make some political points both by giving money back to those who paid it (a good thing if you have no national debt, which wasn't and still isn't the case) and so the economy would be better (however much it actually did help it). A win-win for any politician(s).

Having a surplus for a year doesn't mean you have a surplus until you get your total debt under control. Until that actually happens (if ever, which isn't likely), all that means is you're potentially less in debt than you were the year before...until they gave it back and that means you're just in the same place you were the year before. Congrats!

Call me when the national debt is at 0$ (or a realistic number), the budgets for the current and future years are actually balanced, and we run a surplus for one of those years. Then we'll actually have a real surplus...

Chuck

/facepalm Fence post movement Fail.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Care to explain this then?



Keep in mind, the budget takes into account interest to be paid on the national debt. That means, after paying the interest on the national debt, Bush still had money left over. The budget surplus could have then been used to pay down the principal. Bush chose instead to invest it in the form of a tax cut thinking he could get a better rate of return on revenues which would lead to a bigger surplus in the years ahead. Maybe it would have worked out, maybe not. But then Bush went and spent more money by invading Iraq and adding Medicare Part D among other things.

Sounds about right, although remember that surpluses under Clinton were only surpluses by spending the excess Social Security receipts we were supposedly saving. I don't think tax cuts can ever truly pay back nowadays in the short term. After the inflation of the Carter years, the Fed got very aggressive at fighting inflation by hiking the interest rates to "cool down" the economy. In practical terms, the Fed is not normally going to allow growth beyond 3.5% - 4% for fear of inflation. If the baseline is stagnation, any growth is capped at 4%, and tax spending and receipts are roughly 20% of GDP, then no more than 0.8% of GDP growth can ever be recaptured by tax cuts, so no more than 0.8% of GDP could ever be cut and not reduce tax receipts. Since we're consistently spending more than our tax receipts, that tax cut would have to be even smaller.

The principle of tax cuts stimulating the economy is valid, and government is at best a necessary evil. But I think to not put us further in debt, any future tax cuts must be matched by decreases in spending, preferably greater than the tax cuts. And given that society and government tend to grow in both size and complexity, and the nature of Congress Critters and Presidents, we're unlikely to spend less. (Democrats are screaming about even spending less more.) So rates today are probably as low as they will get - unless of course we start taxing capital gains as regular income AND that change doesn't so depress the economy that receipts actually go down. It's much more likely that taxes will increase - hopefully to pay down the national debt rather to lubricate increasing it.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
"...for that year."

What else needs explaining?

Chuck
Then why say:

Except there is no budget surplus, that is the point.

Chuck

We didn't have $0 of national debt, and accidently run a surplus. We simply paid the hundreds of Billions of $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$.$$ on the national debt and oh lookee there, we've got a paltry sum left over, lets make some political points both by giving money back to those who paid it (a good thing if you have no national debt, which wasn't and still isn't the case) and so the economy would be better (however much it actually did help it). A win-win for any politician(s).

Having a surplus for a year doesn't mean you have a surplus until you get your total debt under control. Until that actually happens (if ever, which isn't likely), all that means is you're potentially less in debt than you were the year before...until they gave it back and that means you're just in the same place you were the year before. Congrats!

Call me when the national debt is at 0$ (or a realistic number), the budgets for the current and future years are actually balanced, and we run a surplus for one of those years. Then we'll actually have a real surplus...

Chuck

Apparently you don't know what is meant by a budget surplus. No one has claimed we had no national debt either so I don't know why you confuse it with the national debt.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Go back to my grocery store analogy, which, while not perfect, is basically the shape the US is in right now. If you're $583k in debt right now, and will be $800k in debt in 10 years, and will have a $100k a year income with (at present) $130k a year expenditures, if next year you get to $131k income and $130k expenditures, or maybe $101k income and $100k expenditures, would you seriously crow about having a surplus, brag that Wowzers, I've got a ZOMGWTFBBQ!!!!!11!!! surplus!!!, all while being (rounded) $600k in debt with no way of ever paying it off?

Seriously: You'd really consider that as having a surplus?

Or, would you recognize that while you are freakishly positive in $ for the year (by a very small amount mind you), that your total debt is so crushing, and your projected year to year income to expenditure ratio is either negative or - at best - zero, and hence conclude that while you have more money that you've spent this year, that you're broke as a motherf*cker and really need to a.) cut back your spending, b.) try to increase your income, and c.) maybe pay down that total debt so it's not costing you so much?

I'm fearing you're going to chose the YippeeSurplusLetsSpendSomeMore!!!!!111!!! option....surprise me, please....

Chuck
 

nyker96

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
5,630
2
81
Good luck with that.

The "No taxes over my dead body" crowd (also the "dont touch my SS and Medicare crowd") doesnt understand how much of our current situation is due to a revenue problem.

Hence the need for tax inceases.

this is one thing I don't understand, how can you NOT pay enough taxes while spending exceeds the taxes collected while 'balance the budget'? I mean it's wrong for the government to collect more taxes than required to cover expenses, but NO taxes? then who's going to pay for everything your grand child?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,789
6,349
126
Sounds about right, although remember that surpluses under Clinton were only surpluses by spending the excess Social Security receipts we were supposedly saving. I don't think tax cuts can ever truly pay back nowadays in the short term. After the inflation of the Carter years, the Fed got very aggressive at fighting inflation by hiking the interest rates to "cool down" the economy. In practical terms, the Fed is not normally going to allow growth beyond 3.5% - 4% for fear of inflation. If the baseline is stagnation, any growth is capped at 4%, and tax spending and receipts are roughly 20% of GDP, then no more than 0.8% of GDP growth can ever be recaptured by tax cuts, so no more than 0.8% of GDP could ever be cut and not reduce tax receipts. Since we're consistently spending more than our tax receipts, that tax cut would have to be even smaller.

The principle of tax cuts stimulating the economy is valid, and government is at best a necessary evil. But I think to not put us further in debt, any future tax cuts must be matched by decreases in spending, preferably greater than the tax cuts. And given that society and government tend to grow in both size and complexity, and the nature of Congress Critters and Presidents, we're unlikely to spend less. (Democrats are screaming about even spending less more.) So rates today are probably as low as they will get - unless of course we start taxing capital gains as regular income AND that change doesn't so depress the economy that receipts actually go down. It's much more likely that taxes will increase - hopefully to pay down the national debt rather to lubricate increasing it.

The way I understand the SS situation is this(it could be wrong, but anyway): Way back during the Reagan Admin it became apparent that the Baby Boomers were going to muck up the SS program due to their Demographic bubble. So the solution was to hike SS Payments to create a Surplus within that program. That Surplus was then Borrowed by the Government and added to General Revenue. The intent was to then Pay Back to SS that borrowed $ when the Baby Boomer bubble began to occur, which now is coming into affect. When you bring Clinton's Surplus into it, it is somewhat disingenuous to specify Clinton, as that was the SOP established long before him. However, it also is true that it makes Clinton's Surplus kinda iffy, except that it was still a significant accomplishment as it was something that hadn't happened up until that time and the Budgetary situation was going in the right direction to carry the original plan regarding the Baby Boomer bubble and SS through. Al Gore's "Lockbox" was part of that scheme, essentially ending the SS Surplus borrowing and Saving that Surplus to address the eventual Baby Boomer bubble. IOW, rather than the Bush Tax Cuts, Gore was going to create a real Balanced Budget and hold the SS Surplus in liquid form until it could be used to address the bubble.

Tax Cuts *can* have a Stimulative affect, but that stimulus depends on numerous factors. One of those depends on Taxes being excessively high to begin with, so high that they are stifling the Economy. That kind of situation hasn't existed in decades though. Another way they can work is by adding a significant sum of $ into the Private Sector that can be spent by Business and Tax Payers. This simply is useless right now as Business is sitting on a huge pool of $ right now and the only Tax Payers that could possibly receive such sums are also sitting on a huge pool of $ already. This is why during the Bush Admin, despite repeated Tax Cuts, the Economy simply tread water for the most part and the only thing that was Booming were the nefarious activities that resulted in the 2008 Recession that continues to dog the US Economy to this day.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
this is one thing I don't understand, how can you NOT pay enough taxes while spending exceeds the taxes collected while 'balance the budget'? I mean it's wrong for the government to collect more taxes than required to cover expenses, but NO taxes? then who's going to pay for everything your grand child?

The important thing is that people, and by extension Politicians, don't have to feel the pain now, they can simply defer it to some later time for someone else to worry about. It's a win-win....until it's time to pay up (which by just increasing the debt ceiling each time, and printing money, never happens).

Unless at some point in time Politicians decide to not extend the ceiling, in which case, the 'Let the Good Times Roll' Politicians start sweating it....

Chuck
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Go back to my grocery store analogy, which, while not perfect, is basically the shape the US is in right now. If you're $583k in debt right now, and will be $800k in debt in 10 years, and will have a $100k a year income with (at present) $130k a year expenditures, if next year you get to $131k income and $130k expenditures, or maybe $101k income and $100k expenditures, would you seriously crow about having a surplus, brag that Wowzers, I've got a ZOMGWTFBBQ!!!!!11!!! surplus!!!, all while being (rounded) $600k in debt with no way of ever paying it off?


Chuck
Your analogy fails.

The grocery store was projected to profit every year so it wasn't unexpected as you say. The plan for the profit was for it to be put into use paying off the debt such that the debt in 10 years be paid off or at the very least, significantly less than the $583k, not 800k as you say. Instead of following the plan and paying it off, the owner decided to expand the grocery store thinking he could get more revenue. The increase in revenue would then be used to pay off the debt faster. Is it a logical thing to do? Yep. But then the owner never put the higher revenue towards the debt. He kept expanding the store.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
It seems overly simplistic to me to say that higher taxes lead to a slower economy. Money taken in tax receipts doesn't just vanish into a magic sack...well, at least in theory.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Your analogy fails.

The grocery store was projected to profit every year so it wasn't unexpected as you say. The plan for the profit was for it to be put into use paying off the debt such that the debt in 10 years be paid off or at the very least, significantly less than the $583k, not 800k as you say. Instead of following the plan and paying it off, the owner decided to expand the grocery store thinking he could get more revenue. The increase in revenue would then be used to pay off the debt faster. Is it a logical thing to do? Yep. But then the owner never put the higher revenue towards the debt. He kept expanding the store.

But it's not unexpected, out of the 100 guys running the store, 99 know they're going to run a deficit - and don't care. They know there is no profit, as they're giving out more than they're taking in (which, of course, they know). So there is no paying off the already existing 10 years ago, now, or in another 10 years. So it's not significantly less of anything, it's - as we can see after 40 years in the same situation, same "super smart political guys" running the store - just the same old significantly more.

P.S. When they expanded, that was to spend more money, it had zero to do with higher revenue. How else do you think they got to $600k debt in 40 years?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
The way I understand the SS situation is this(it could be wrong, but anyway): Way back during the Reagan Admin it became apparent that the Baby Boomers were going to muck up the SS program due to their Demographic bubble. So the solution was to hike SS Payments to create a Surplus within that program. That Surplus was then Borrowed by the Government and added to General Revenue. The intent was to then Pay Back to SS that borrowed $ when the Baby Boomer bubble began to occur, which now is coming into affect. When you bring Clinton's Surplus into it, it is somewhat disingenuous to specify Clinton, as that was the SOP established long before him. However, it also is true that it makes Clinton's Surplus kinda iffy, except that it was still a significant accomplishment as it was something that hadn't happened up until that time and the Budgetary situation was going in the right direction to carry the original plan regarding the Baby Boomer bubble and SS through. Al Gore's "Lockbox" was part of that scheme, essentially ending the SS Surplus borrowing and Saving that Surplus to address the eventual Baby Boomer bubble. IOW, rather than the Bush Tax Cuts, Gore was going to create a real Balanced Budget and hold the SS Surplus in liquid form until it could be used to address the bubble.

Tax Cuts *can* have a Stimulative affect, but that stimulus depends on numerous factors. One of those depends on Taxes being excessively high to begin with, so high that they are stifling the Economy. That kind of situation hasn't existed in decades though. Another way they can work is by adding a significant sum of $ into the Private Sector that can be spent by Business and Tax Payers. This simply is useless right now as Business is sitting on a huge pool of $ right now and the only Tax Payers that could possibly receive such sums are also sitting on a huge pool of $ already. This is why during the Bush Admin, despite repeated Tax Cuts, the Economy simply tread water for the most part and the only thing that was Booming were the nefarious activities that resulted in the 2008 Recession that continues to dog the US Economy to this day.
Sorta. It became apparent to many people during and before the Reagan years that the boomers were going to screw up Social Security, which is basically a Ponzi scheme after all. Reagan created by executive order a commission, chaired by Greenspan, to study the issue, but it was a bipartisan commission and a bipartisan bill. Two things were accomplished. First, rates were hiked, which was essential to make the system solvent (at least on paper.) Second, Social Security was placed in a separate account; Congress may not spend it. However, the Social Security account managers spend excess receipts buying government debt. Essentially it's the same thing, just a change in accounting.

That sounds kind of nefarious, and in a way it is. It defeats the entire purpose of separating Social Security into a separate account, rather than just a ledger entry of liabilities that government promises to pay out. But the alternatives aren't good. The Social Security account managers could buy precious metals, but there's no guaranty that metals won't go down. They could buy corporate bonds or stocks, but there again there are no guarantees, and if the actuality of corruption isn't a certainty, the accusation of it certainly would be. Imagine the scandal if Social Security money had been invested largely in the highly profitable housing derivative market - to skyrocket in value and then plummet to worthlessness! Government debt is perhaps the one investment vehicle where accusations of fraud, corruption and favoritism have no teeth.

Personally I wish the excess receipts had been invested in broad-based, solid blue chip mutual funds, but it's easy to see why they weren't. Besides protecting the Social Security fund managers and the integrity (if not solvency) of the trust fund itself, it also pleases Congress by making the true overspending look less worse.

As regards Al Gore's "lock box", that is merely a political vehicle. It's an old Democrat technique to scare seniors by telling them that Republicans want to raid Social Security. As people become increasingly educated, everyone knows that Social Security has been raided long ago and therefore is empty of all but IOUs. It becomes very difficult to scare people into voting for you because your opponent wants to steal a box of IOUs, particularly if you are a sitting Vice-President and a long time member of Congress. (AKA "One of the people who already raided it.) Thus, Al Gore's "lock box" - insisting that the Social Security funds are in a "lock box" full of - well, not IOUs, but "the full faith and trust of the United States government." (Personally I'm not sure why they thought accusing your opponent of wanting to raid a "lock box" full of "the full faith and trust of the United States government" would be more effective than a box of IOUs.) Al Gore's "lock box" is a scare tactic and nothing more. Al Gore personally was not on the commission, was not a significant player in the debate, had nothing to do with the 1983 Social Security Act, and in fact could not even be bothered to show and vote for it. http://www.ssa.gov/history/tally1983.html
A bit more light reading for those who care.
http://www.ssa.gov/history/1983amend.html
http://www.ssa.gov/history/law.html

There is a huge mystique arisen about Gore that is largely bullshit, due solely to his environmental positions and his importance in Democrat Presidential politics. He was a decent Representative, and a not too horrible Senator until he thought he had an actual shot at being elected President, but he has never been intelligent or a particularly involved (outside of D.C.) kind of guy. And calling his Senate office was an exercise in futility if you weren't a big donor or politically important; they knew nothing, cared less, and suggested you ask your Representative. (For a great Tennessee Senator of the day, look at Jim Sasser.)

I largely agree with you on tax cuts. Probably the best things to do in a severe recession are to do targeted temporary tax rebates to every worker, try to limit the damage by bailing out any huge companies or industries, and wait it out. Tax cuts simply increase the amount of money on the sidelines (which is admittedly good for solvency) and government programs just use $4 to provide $1 of economic activity - and that only until the borrowing ability runs out.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Your analogy fails.

The grocery store was projected to profit every year so it wasn't unexpected as you say. The plan for the profit was for it to be put into use paying off the debt such that the debt in 10 years be paid off or at the very least, significantly less than the $583k, not 800k as you say. Instead of following the plan and paying it off, the owner decided to expand the grocery store thinking he could get more revenue. The increase in revenue would then be used to pay off the debt faster. Is it a logical thing to do? Yep. But then the owner never put the higher revenue towards the debt. He kept expanding the store.
That's actually an excellent analogy for government. And I've seen that happen a couple times in restaurants and once in manufacturing. Each time, eventually the bank said no more money, and the business failed - the additional revenue just wasn't enough to make the additional payments. (Kinda breaks down a bit at that point, but a perfect analogy is merely the same case stated twice.)

It seems overly simplistic to me to say that higher taxes lead to a slower economy. Money taken in tax receipts doesn't just vanish into a magic sack...well, at least in theory.

It doesn't, but a fair amount of it gets burned in the collecting and distributing. That money doesn't disappear, but it creates no wealth and consumes wealth creation potential. Some of it gets sent out of the country which, while it may be doing good things, still removes that wealth from the nation. Much of it gets used for things that add little or no real wealth or utility to our nation. And that same dollar is taken one-for-one from the private sector - which creates the wealth. Government is a lossy entity; it must consume part of that dollar internally.